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Question for the alternators

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38
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
pandaBee
So I'm an alternating player myself and I've recently noticed a sort of habit that I have in osu. So what happens is, for fast clusters of notes (doubles, triples, streams, etc) I will tend to favor starting with one finger over the other, even if I am set to start the cluster with my other finger.

So for example, let's say there is three single notes followed by three triples, this is how it will often look for me:

z x z zxz zxz zxz

instead of

z x z xzx xzx xzx

The same goes for streams and doubles:

z x z zx zx zx

z x z zxzxzxzxz

So on and so forth. The thing is, this habit only kicks in during faster songs, for slower ones i pretty much perfectly alternate.

Is this a bad habit I should be fixing? Should I stay away from faster songs until I have complete full control over the fingers that I am using? I am a bit concerned about this. What are your thoughts?
Gigo
266 posts
Joined March 2013
Gigo
Is this messing up your gameplay? I mean, do you miss notes or have lower accuracy because of that? Because if you don't, there is nothing wrong with how you're playing. In other words, I don't think this is a habit worth fixing, there simply is nothing to fix (as far as it doesn't affect your gameplay).

Also, if you "favor" starting with one finger over the other, then that must mean it's simply more comfortable for you that way. If that's the case, leave it like that. Comfort while playing is essential. ;)
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
pandaBee
Well it sort of feels awkward and tends to throw me off. Sometimes I'll get confused and my fingers will feel like they're tangling, triples tend to get a bit sloppier too. It sort of feels like my brain is telling my body to alternate but my body decides to do non-alternating style for fast clusters.

I'm asking on here because I am not sure if this is something i will simply get used to with time or not. It would be nice to hear from someone who's had the same problem if such a person exists here.
Ishkiz
30 posts
Joined April 2013
Ishkiz
Hi, I do this. I alternate but definitely favor my index finger for starting things, like triples and streams. I don't really think about it, and it doesn't bother me, but I feel like learning how to perfectly alternate would indeed be helpful in the long run. Whatever floats your boat.

Those examples in your OP are exactly how I play
Gigo
266 posts
Joined March 2013
Gigo

pandaBee wrote:

It sort of feels like my brain is telling my body to alternate but my body decides to do non-alternating style for fast clusters.
Hmm... maybe alternating isn't for you? Have you tried singletapping? It may turn out that it is the better style for you... or are you dead set on alternating?

pandaBee wrote:

I'm asking on here because I am not sure if this is something i will simply get used to with time or not.
You should be able to get used to it as time goes by. When I switched from singletapping to alternating, I had to force myself to press every note with different finger, but now it feels natural! I don't even do triples as "zxz zxz", but as "zxz xzx".
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
pandaBee

Gigo wrote:

pandaBee wrote:

It sort of feels like my brain is telling my body to alternate but my body decides to do non-alternating style for fast clusters.
Hmm... maybe alternating isn't for you? Have you tried singletapping? It may turn out that it is the better style for you... or are you dead set on alternating?

pandaBee wrote:

I'm asking on here because I am not sure if this is something i will simply get used to with time or not.
You should be able to get used to it as time goes by. When I switched from singletapping to alternating, I had to force myself to press every note with different finger, but now it feels natural! I don't even do triples as "zxz zxz", but as "zxz xzx".
I am dead set on alternating. Also, when I asked if I would get used to it, I was referring to the 'bad' habit that I described in the OP. I don't mind spending more time correcting this habit if it means it will help me in the long run. So what do you guys think? Yay or nay? Or does it not matter at all?

If I were to fix it I'd pretty much play slower songs and focus a lot of attention on my fingers and make sure i'm alternating properly, checking replays as well to make sure that I'm doing it correctly. Ofc I'll also have the key overlay shown on the right hand side at all times to check during breaks in the song.
Yuudachi-kun
5,432 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Gigo wrote:

Is this messing up your gameplay? I mean, do you miss notes or have lower accuracy because of that? Because if you don't, there is nothing wrong with how you're playing. In other words, I don't think this is a habit worth fixing, there simply is nothing to fix (as far as it doesn't affect your gameplay).

Also, if you "favor" starting with one finger over the other, then that must mean it's simply more comfortable for you that way. If that's the case, leave it like that. Comfort while playing is essential. ;)
Do you consider doing triples when doubles appear a habit "not worth fixing" if it doesn't impede combo or acc?
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
pandaBee

Kheldragar wrote:

Gigo wrote:

Is this messing up your gameplay? I mean, do you miss notes or have lower accuracy because of that? Because if you don't, there is nothing wrong with how you're playing. In other words, I don't think this is a habit worth fixing, there simply is nothing to fix (as far as it doesn't affect your gameplay).

Also, if you "favor" starting with one finger over the other, then that must mean it's simply more comfortable for you that way. If that's the case, leave it like that. Comfort while playing is essential. ;)
Do you consider doing triples when doubles appear a habit "not worth fixing" if it doesn't impede combo or acc?
Of course I do, it's a little different this time though since I use the same number of taps per circles, it's just that the order in which I do so is awkwardly changed a bit, it's sort of like going from being a alternating player to someone that single taps the harder parts. I have an intuition that this is probably not a good thing to continue fostering, which is why I wanted to ask about it here.
koromo
165 posts
Joined March 2011
koromo
Hi I alternate. I used to play the same way you do, I've alternated since a long time ago but I had my middle finger as my main, so I ended up doing just like you and z x zxz zxz zxz or x z zxz zxz zxz etc but not just on faster songs but on everything I played in general.

I don't think it's a bad habit. Plenty of people who alternate favor their main finger. If you're really set on alternating at all times then it will probably come to you naturally over time, no need to stop playing faster songs. I started alternating perfectly without worrying much about it and now I play something like x z xzx zxz xzx and so on.
woqx
177 posts
Joined June 2011
woqx
I had the exact same problem for quite a while, it was actually really annoying because I would sometimes get confused and not know which finger to use. I thought of going back to singletapping but decided to force myself to alternate everything, now that I've learned it I think it's a lot better. Of course you can be very good even with zxz zxz but I feel like once you master it, zxz xzx is much easier. It also makes patterns like xz x zxx zx z xzx much more fun in my opinion.
Mofu kun
1,500 posts
Joined September 2013
Mofu kun
I do start triples with the same key

it ends up pretty k
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
pandaBee
Any tips on how the two of you guys fixed your habits? I don't think it's something that will just go away for me as it seems to get worse as i play harder songs.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh
I also favor my main finger, but when alternating, I can't skip any notes or I'll get thrown off. The best thing you can do is train your other finger - try singletapping with it instead until you build up speed and stamina.
koromo
165 posts
Joined March 2011
koromo

pandaBee wrote:

Any tips on how the two of you guys fixed your habits? I don't think it's something that will just go away for me as it seems to get worse as i play harder songs.
The only thing coming to mind is:

bigfeh wrote:

The best thing you can do is train your other finger - try singletapping with it instead until you build up speed and stamina.
Also play triplets and streams with your non-main finger. Other than that I really didn't do much.
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
pandaBee
Have you guys ever tried perhaps switching your starting finger for songs just to make you less reliant on a certain finger?

i usually start with z but i've been contemplating playing songs that I've beaten before but with x to begin with instead.
koromo
165 posts
Joined March 2011
koromo
I switch my starting finger on songs randomly (can still alternate perfectly). I used to start with z when it was still my main finger.
Raniemi
337 posts
Joined December 2013
Raniemi
I'm an alternator and I have trouble perfectly alternating too. At first, it felt a little awkward for me but I got used to it and now it feels natural.
I don't think that it's a bad habit so just keep playing and it shouldn't bother you anymore.
woqx
177 posts
Joined June 2011
woqx
The only tip I can give is force yourself to alternate. I think singletapping with your other finger to bring it up to the same level is not very useful because you could spend the same time learning to properly alternate. I started playing more slowish (about 140-170 bpm) songs so I could focus on the alternating and actually stopped playing fast stuff until I had learned how to do it "correctly".

Also I have no "starting finger" and in my opinion you shouldn't think about what finger you use at the beginning, just play and try to switch it up. The finger I use to start doesn't affect my performance at all and I think if you can only play a song if you begin with a certain finger you're doing something wrong.
vincaslt
101 posts
Joined January 2014
vincaslt
I used to alternate until I was around 20k rank, then slowly my fingers couldn't keep up with the harder rhythms and I started to singletap more, however neither finger was dominant, then slowly index finger started to take over, and now I'm just a regular index-finger-singletapper :/

I find singletapping a lot more comfortable, since I can now reach high accuracy on jumps, and miss a lot less.
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
pandaBee

woqx wrote:

The only tip I can give is force yourself to alternate. I think singletapping with your other finger to bring it up to the same level is not very useful because you could spend the same time learning to properly alternate. I started playing more slowish (about 140-170 bpm) songs so I could focus on the alternating and actually stopped playing fast stuff until I had learned how to do it "correctly".

Also I have no "starting finger" and in my opinion you shouldn't think about what finger you use at the beginning, just play and try to switch it up. The finger I use to start doesn't affect my performance at all and I think if you can only play a song if you begin with a certain finger you're doing something wrong.
Were you playing maps where you were sure you would make 0 mistakes in alternating, or did you just play at a bpm where you could notice yourself making mistakes if you were to make them? Or perhaps something else entirely?
woqx
177 posts
Joined June 2011
woqx

pandaBee wrote:

Were you playing maps where you were sure you would make 0 mistakes in alternating, or did you just play at a bpm where you could notice yourself making mistakes if you were to make them? Or perhaps something else entirely?
I think it's pointless to play a map if you can't notice and understand the mistakes you're making. Mistakes are good, as long as you understand them and learn from them so you can do better next time. Personally I had this singletapping problem at over 180bpm if I remember correctly so I just played a lot of different, slower maps to get used to alternating properly.

Maps like these https://osu.ppy.sh/s/53547 & https://osu.ppy.sh/s/43166 were useful for me, but any streamy map is good.
I also found drum&bass songs very nice because they usually contain a lot of triplets and 5 1/4 notes (quintuplet i guess?). At the moment I really like this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/212387 (the Extra) for example, I know it's not d&b but it's the mapping style i'm talking about (If this one is too difficult, obviously don't play it and find something easier, like Frey's Another diff, i think it's great too).
What also helped me is playing maps that have 1/4 notes right after sliders, forcing you start with the "wrong" finger and clicking only 2 out of 3 (or 4 out of 5, etc) notes because the sliderend is the first note.
Anything that is slow enough for you to be able to focus on the alternating will do, as long as it contains a good amount of 1/4 notes. Do not play things that force you to resort to zxz zxz because they are too fast if you want to learn full alternating, it won't help.
bigfeh
1,149 posts
Joined January 2013
bigfeh

koromo wrote:

I switch my starting finger on songs randomly (can still alternate perfectly). I used to start with z when it was still my main finger.
Just quoting this because I think it deserves a bit of extra attention. This is solid advice and should be tried by OP (helps with your second finger. Once it's as goos as the first, you won't have any trouble alternating)
ithgyu
468 posts
Joined October 2014
ithgyu
yeah i do this all the time, i always start triples and streams on my middle finger, i dont think there is any issue with it because you basically just single tap for a sec, so no i dont think its a bad habbit at all, certainly not one worth fixing or worrying about, in fact i would think its probably better because you are going to get more used to being able to do it on the one finger, so it will be all around more natural to do.
darkmiz
407 posts
Joined August 2011
darkmiz
play scarlet rose
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
I do this too. Always have, probably always will. It's not a big deal if you continue doing it, but if the two options are equally natural to you except at high bpm, I'd suggest trying to learn to full alternate. It gives you a tiny bit more stamina by evening out the burden on your fingers, it makes you less likely to get tripped up by an unexpected triple/stream that lands on the "wrong finger" (can be annoying on high AR), and it makes tricky rhythms a tiny bit easier on you. Really though, no big deal if you can't get used to it; it limits you a little bit but not much.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
I'm not sure really. Maybe it would;d be a good idea to practice on slow songs to perfect 'proper' full alternating.
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
pandaBee
Out of curiosity, is there a easier way to tell if i'm alternating perfectly other than checking the entire replay?

Consider the following:

zxxz
zxzx

both give 4 ticks and both will show two hits for K1 and K2, however obviously the first sequence is not a case of perfect alternation, whereas the second sequence is.

So in order to tell if you're doing things correctly you can't just rely on the numbers counted under K1/K2 at the end of a map, you have to watch the replay and see for yourself whether you are hitting the keys properly throughout the entire duration of the song. I don't think I have to mention how difficult this would be in general.

Is there a easier way of doing this? Maybe some kind of program or whatnot?
woqx
177 posts
Joined June 2011
woqx

pandaBee wrote:

So in order to tell if you're doing things correctly you can't just rely on the numbers counted under K1/K2 at the end of a map, you have to watch the replay and see for yourself whether you are hitting the keys properly throughout the entire duration of the song. I don't think I have to mention how difficult this would be in general.

Is there a easier way of doing this? Maybe some kind of program or whatnot?
Why would you need a replay or any other data when you can clearly tell if you're alternating or not while you are playing? All you need to do is pay attention and analyze how you play and what you do with your fingers, it's not hard and you certainly don't need a program for it. If you're focusing on full alternating, it should be obvious when you make a 'mistake' anyway.

I actually think it's very useful to throw in some singletaps once in a while, because it will usually make you start the upcoming patterns with your other finger, kind of like changing the finger you start songs with. But those singletaps should always be intentional and maybe this should only be done once you've learned to alternate without ever having to resort to zxz zxz (unless ofc you are fine with playing like this, but since you made a thread about it I assume you want to get rid of this habit)
FrzR
2,237 posts
Joined October 2012
FrzR

Mofu kun wrote:

I do start triples with the same key

it ends up pretty k
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1

pandaBee wrote:

Out of curiosity, is there a easier way to tell if i'm alternating perfectly other than checking the entire replay?

Consider the following:

zxxz
zxzx

both give 4 ticks and both will show two hits for K1 and K2, however obviously the first sequence is not a case of perfect alternation, whereas the second sequence is.
why does it even matter. if it works it works. it'll be more of a problem if you are over-alternating and hitting extra keys that you shouldn't hit in the first place. if you ever watch me play maps with a lot of kick sliders, and/or 3/4 sliders, you'll probably see my keys being hit pretty randomly, but i couldn't care less.
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet
I've always alternated everything for triples and fives, just zxz xzx zxz or zxzxz xzxzx zxzxz etc. I feel like zxz zxz zxz would just kill one of my fingers because I can't single tap with either of my fingers lololol. It also just feels faster than zxz zxz zxz.

However, for long streams (>16 notes) I like to start on my middle finger if possible, just because I hit the key a bit harder with my middle than my index. In other words, I'll lead the stream with my middle and keep track of every 4 notes making sure the 5th 9th 13th etc. notes are hit with my middle finger.

Don't worry about it too much, you don't have to really "analyze your play" or anything just do what feels easier. If it's working for you, then let it be.

Edit: Here's something to practice on https://osu.ppy.sh/s/89799
Arnold0
1,675 posts
Joined February 2012
Arnold0
You don't need any program to know when you mess up your alternating.
As a full alternating player (Doing zdz dzd zdz all the time) I instantly know when I mess up alternating and end up hitting two times in a row the same key which sometimes happen on hard maps I have some issues reading. But maybe I'm just not good enouth to play maps where I would mess up and not recognize it.

Also I think how you alternate is just a matter of preference. Some players are full alternating like me, others do alternate but not always like zdz zdz, even some single tap notes and alternate at every sliders... Most of the time it's not an issue if it doesn't throw your rhythm off.

I wonder why people says to single tap to fix alternating... I know that I myself can't single tap, I tryed it once for fun and I ended up trying to single tap every thing including streams so fail, or if I managed to go from single tap to alternating in a stream I couldn't go back to single tap after it. I think really trying to single tap as a full alternating player is asking for trouble.
Mvsk
87 posts
Joined August 2014
Mvsk
I could do this perfectly with my left hand however i recently switched over to tablet and have been using my right hand for hitting notes and left hand to guide the cursor.

At the moment i am hitting triplets and fast double with one finger... double time normals and some "hard" songs (3-4 stars) still can't full combo a 4 yet but that's usually from missing jumps or poor accuracy on fast sliders. using both throws off my accuracy or like you said get confused and mixed up after some confusing combo strings. IF your accuracy does get off nothing is wrong just means you need to train a little more and get use to it.

I play other games and what is used most with the right hand aside from the mouse? the arrow keys. :)
Instead of z,x use v , <- if you are using your right hand. This also helps by having roughly the same spacing before transition. It has improved my scores in one night, getting 50-150 more hits on my personal high score with some 3-4 star maps that i completed before on mouse but still no full combo there is progress.
pandaBee
2,004 posts
Joined December 2014
Topic Starter
pandaBee

nooblet wrote:

Edit: Here's something to practice on https://osu.ppy.sh/s/89799
But i haven't played more enough to do that map. I'm still a lowly scrub. Pls be gentle senpai.

In any case I actually have analyzed my play and it turns out that I always mess up my alternate during streams, particularly fast one. I'll end up clicking something like this zxzxzxzxz zxzxzx. This happens on almost every fast stream that I do. I wonder if this is normal or not? For now I'm just staying away from fast stuff and working on everything else (accuracy, reading, control, aim, etc.)
Ichi
277 posts
Joined July 2013
Ichi
i myself, singletap and start streams or triples with the same finger. I used to think that would slow my speed sometimes, and maybe still concerned. But if its comfortable just do that, focus more on playing and less on how you play. That will give you faster improvement.
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