Ok, ok, before you get your knickerbockers into a twist, hear me out here.

The skill level of osu! players have come quite a long way since the game started in 2007. Nearly all the top players can pull off full combos on ludicrous expert level maps with ease, and players have mastered the art of HD+HR, HD+DT, and HR+DT to maximize the amount of pp they can get in an attempt to reach the higher echelons of the pp ranking system.

However, with the strict restrictions on ranked maps today, many of the top players primarily focus on the hardest difficulties per map, most of the time trying to full combo either an Expert difficulty or an Insane difficulty with two mods to achieve a minimum of a 300 pp play, which is more or less the standard target if a player is trying to attempt to crack the top 500 on the rankings. As a result, for many of the top players, a plethora of maps go unplayed because they are too easy to the point that a HD+HR+DT play will give less than 200 pp. In other words, they aren't worth the time, and as a result, they are bypassed by the top players in favor of difficult maps that give pp.

To me, that's a huge shame, as there are so many beautiful maps on the 3* to 4.5* difficulty level that don't get the number of plays that they really deserve. Why? Because for top pros, there is almost zero replay ability to them. Most of the time, they're never touched or even attempted, and if they are attempted, usually it is at a request of their twitch followers or what not and it is only attempted once. There's little incentive for the top pros to even attempt to play these maps.

If only there were some way for the maps to be harder... as in adjust circle sizes to be smaller, approach rates to be faster, reducing the timing window via Overal Difficulty, or what the heck, flip the map over a different axis to make an entirely new map?

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I am proposing a new modifier that will completely revolutionize the osu! competitive community forever. I bring to you: HARD ROCK II.

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Wait... what's Hard Rock?

From the osu! wiki, Hard Rock is defined as follows:

osu!wiki wrote:

Hard Rock (named after the hardest difficulty of the DS game Elite Beat Agents) decreases hit circle size by 1 tick while increasing the overall difficulty, approach rate, and the HP drain by 2 or 3 ticks of their original value up to a maximum of 10. The difference in AR is often hard to notice except when used on maps with an original AR of 7 or greater, as it will push the AR to the maximum value of 10. Hard Rock can be a very difficult mod (especially on insane maps) as it not only demands higher cursor accuracy, it also requires the ability to read lightning-fast approach circles. Additionally, this mod flips the map on the X axis, so that elements that were at the bottom of the map are now at the top and vice versa.

That's a good description for a newcomer to the game that is trying to understand what the modifiers actually do. But really, "2 or 3 ticks?" That doesn't seem like a clear cut definition of the modifier, so really, what does Hard Rock actually do?

Well, Hard Rock does the following:

• 1) It takes the Circle Size (CS) of the map and multiplies it by 1.3, then caps it off at 7 if it exceeds 7.
  2) It takes the Approach Rate (AR) of the map and multiplies it by 1.4, then caps it off at 10 if it exceeds 10.
  3) It takes the Overall Difficulty (OD) of the map and multiplies it by 1.4, then caps it off at 10 if it exceeds 10.
  4) It takes the HP Drain (HP) of the map and multiplies it by 1.4, then caps it off at 10 if it exceeds 10.
  5) Each hit circle on the map is flipped over the x-axis. Beatmappers know that each hit circle is given given an (x,y) coordinate, with the x-axis being listed as x = 256 and y = 192. In Hard Rock, the circle is remapped so that if a hit circle has the coordinates (x,y), the new hitcircle is mapped to (x, 384-y).
  6) To account for increased difficulty, it multiplies the score by 1.06

Okay, so exactly what are you looking for in Hard Rock II?

Well I propose that Hard Rock II does exactly the following:

Proposition 1: The map is flipped over the y-axis.

The idea of Hard Rock flipping maps over the x-axis was intended to give the map a new look and a new feel, giving a sense of illusion that the map is a completely different map entirely. Hard Rock II being flipped over the y-axis gives the map a different flow entirely. Now, in transitioning from No Mod to Hard Rock II, the circles on the left side of the map are now on the right, and vice versa. In addition, for players trying to switch from Hard Rock to Hard Rock II, they will find that the circles are flipped across the y = -(3/4)x diagonal (the diagonal from the top left to the bottom right corner), which makes it difficult to relocate the circles in transition, and forcing the player to relearn the entire map as if it were a different map.

How can this be programmed? Well, in the exact same way as Hard Rock I was programmed, where hit circles were remapped to (x, 384-y). For Hard Rock II, Every hit circle (x,y) is remapped to a new coordinate (512-x, y)..

Proposition 2: Circle Size is multiplied by 1.6, capping off at 7.

Since Hard Rock multiplies (CS) by 1.3, it follows that Hard Rock II should be multiplied by a greater number than 1.3. After considering a few numbers, I decided to settle for 1.6, which promotes linear progression, a standard that is required for star difficulty of ranked maps today. Exactly how much does it reduce hit circle size? Well, for circle sizes 2 to 5 (I never see 6 or 7 on ranked maps, no mod), I made a little chart for you.



Proposition 3: Approach Rate, Overall Difficulty, and HP Drain are multiplied by 1.8, capping off at 10

Since AR, OD, and HP Drain are multiplied by 1.4 in Hard Rock I, it follows that Hard Rock II should multiply those values by something greater. Since I added .3 to 1.3 to get 1.6 for the CS multiplier, it only makes sense that I would add .4 to 1.4 to get 1.8 as the multiplier for AR, OD, and HP drain, continuing the notion of linear progression. Thus, the AR, OD, and HP Drain under Hard Rock II would be implemented as follows:



Proposition 4: To account for increased difficulty, the score multiplier for Hard Rock II is x1.12

Honestly, I wanted to propose a much higher score multiplier than x1.12. However, I'm well aware of the debate between whether DT or HDHR is harder. Both disciplines are scored with a x1.12 (well, technically, HDHR is x1.1236, where as DT is x1.12 flat). In a similar vain, if Hard Rock II is introduced, I can see the debate taking a new dimension. Really, which is the hardest? DT, HDHR, or Hard Rock II? A case can be made for each of the three. Thus, I felt that it would only be fair if Hard Rock II has the same multiplier as DT.

I get it. But why should we even implement Hard Rock II?

As I mentioned in my introduction, many maps, especially those of the Hard to low Insane difficulty, often get bypassed by top players simply because they don't generate PP. With Hard Rock II, maps of Hard difficulty, Normal difficulty, and perhaps even Easy difficulty suddenly become playable to the top players and the up and comers, as they end up with new found playability value that can in turn reward them with sufficient amounts of PP. Circle Size 6.5, often a novelty reserved for the best Hard Rock players today, suddenly becomes trainable through the Circle Size 6.4 via Hard Rock II on Normal and Hard difficulties. And don't say that 6.4/10/10/10 is an impossible feat, because 6.5/10/10/10 has actually been done!

In conclusion, Hard Rock II adds a completely new dimension to osu play. We have the DT and the HDHR players, and now with the super small circle size + accuracy play that is found in Hard Rock II, it allows for a new breed of osu players that can challenge the DT and HDHR players for supremacy in the top ranks! Now would that be a sight to see in 2015?!

Came here mostly to say that CS doesn't cap at 7 with HR, but at 10. CS7 HR is CS9.1, and you can make CS8/9/10 maps by editing the .osu file with notepad, which with HR become CS10.

OD-wise, HR2 doesn't bring anything new to the table, 99% of the maps that top player HR are OD8 or higher, which results in OD10, the rest are OD7 which with HR is OD9.8.
Sure, OD6 HR2 is OD10, but it wouldn't be useful anyway: if you change the CS of any hard to CS7, it will still have lower star rating than the normal version with DT. DT HR2 on such maps would be AR11 OD11 CS6.4 (= CS4 HR2), and there's literally only one FC on AR11 OD9.9 CS6.5 on this map by EmperorPenguin83 at the moment, so that wouldn't be a viable playstyle either.
If the OD cap were 11 instead then things could get interesting, easier insanes could be HR2'd to AR10 OD11 CS6.4 which could be a source of pp for accuracy beasts.

I don't think adding a new mod for this would be worth it though. I'd just make AR11, OD11 and CS8 selectable in the editor, and have user-selectable CS and OD mods which add/remove score multiplier when they deviate from the mapper's chosen CS and OD, and have the highest pp-giving play with CS+OD+othermods done by the player to count for pp. But osu! isn't ready for that yet.

You wrote a very detailed idea, but the mod doesn't sound unique, though I like the part of your idea where the map is rotated on the y-axis.

Current HR doesn't cap cs at 7 and the fact that it increases AR at all is stupid and if a new difficulty-increasing mod like this were implemented, it should leave AR alone.

I don't really think this should be implemented though. If it caps cs at 7, it would pretty much equivalent to HR on most CS >= 5.4 maps and if it didn't cap cs at 7, it would start giving veryyy small circles by the time you reach nomod CS5. Most maps that good players HR are OD8+ anyway, so multiplying OD by 1.8 vs 1.4 does nothing. Multiplying hp by 1.8 makes maps frustrating if you can't FC them and doesn't matter at all if you can. Multiplying AR by 1.8 is just strictly an advantage for players who FC things with HR.

I dunno, this mod would just be a way of playing maps with really small circles. I'd rather people rank more small cs maps if that's what people want to play. HR is enough of a mess of a mod as is; making a more extreme version of it is icky.

Edit: DT-sama said almost everything I wanted to say and did a better job of it

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Honestly, all I want is that Hardrock doesnt put every little damn thing to AR10. See that AR7 Hard? Yea, make it AR10, because one object on the screen is already too much ><
I dont think that we need even smaller circles or even a higher drain (which would make some maps literally unplayable even if 100%'d, since some maps have slow parts that would have to be overmapped to be passable. And no, People wouldnt put HP4 or 5 just to make it "HR2" passable).

i think there should be OD's higher than 10, it's a very lenient hit window compared to other rhythm games.

Yauxo, AR7 + HR is not AR10 (It's 9.8)
Riince, use DT for that
Also, why cap CS at 7?

Hey OP. I dont know if you have noticed but not everyone is a top player. If some easier maps are not played by top players its not a problem. Then they are played by lower rank players. Like would you desing "EZ II" so that first timers could farm their 20pp scores of maps like the big black?

Also to reach your goal a DT2 would make much more sense. Like i dont see the fun in hitting 1/1 notes for whole map at 140BPM in CS7 AR10. Like the point of AR is to make it faster for maps with more frequent notes.

No, just no.

baraatje123 wrote:

Yauxo, AR7 + HR is not AR10 (It's 9.8)

Close enough :v You know what I mean though, 9.8 is still too high

Most insane maps have difficulty values of HP7, CS4, AR9, OD7-8, which is pretty much capped by regular HR except for CS. Not worth implementing a new mod just for CS increase imo, and 1.12x bonus would be way overboard

No please

First of all, good job on the OP, it shows that you've put much thought and effort into it.

That being said, I like the idea of HR2 as far as flipping the map on the Y-axis goes. As a matter of fact, I have been thinking about this too and I think it will indeed be very interesting and add a new layer of depth and a new re-playability value to any map, being played with the proposed mod.

However...

I'm gonna have to disagree with the proposed changes to AR, OD, CS and increased multiplier. You want to do it, because easier difficulties get ignored by the good players. Well, do you really think that and Easy or Normal difficulty with everything being capped at its maximum value will make high-ranked players want to play them? I don't think so.

There is more to a map than raw numbers. Top player don't play easier difficulties not because of the low AR or low OD etc. They don't play it because the map is simply not interesting to play - it doesn't have complex patterns or jumps, it's easy to read etc. High AR and high OD aren't gonna change that (even if they do award more pp). Easier difficulties are made specifically for new or low-skilled players in order for them to learn the game so they can progress to tougher difficulties. Don't try to change the nature of "difficulty spread" simply by adding a mod - it just doesn't work like that.

(sigh) Is this where I have to make a "too long, didn't read" section for the lazy people? Ok...

TL;DR: YES to flipping the map on the Y-axis, NO to any of the other proposals.

I like the idea but with something like this I suggest the addition of Quad-Time. (Double Time is 1.5x speed while this will be 2x)

A major problem with adding a new mod in any case is the huge amount of old scores that would be effectively invalidated, especially on easy/normal difficulties. also, you may want to rethink circle size, since HR only can go above 7 already, so wouldn't having it cap at 7 make it easier than the original HR in some cases?

I'd honestly love for something like this to come into play, but as mentioned before, it only effectively makes the CS smaller on most maps. EVEN for the maps he mentioned before (like the nice 3.5 - 4 star maps) they would all be the same ar10/od10/hp10 with just different circle sizes. Changing the rankings by adding a new mod is probably not something peppy will implement.

If anything I'd like something along the lines of "soft rock" so 3 modding ar7 wouldn't be ar10.8, but I'm well aware that's not going to happen.

I like the idea, I just can't really support it, sorry

I would support this if HR II let the OD go over 10 (maybe the AR too). I'm also not a fan of higher HP drain, but that isn't nearly as significant as AR or OD.