Because you want to compensate for something by being a true anime fan the way /a/ tells you to? or do you have an actual reason?boompoi wrote:
K. I hate dubbing
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Sub Vs. Dub
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Sub Vs. Dub
Total votes: 229
Name me a good dubbed anime except for highly budgeted animes, TFS and Ghost stories. I really wish to break the stigma here
Are there any high budget anime dubs? Considering dubbing anime is one of the lowest paying jobs in the industry? I guess unless you are like Afro Samurai and you get someone like Samuel L Jackson to have a role. Not to mention budget shouldn't matter in this discussion and only seems to be a way to be dismissive of titles I've mentioned through the thread.dagambler999 wrote:
Name me a good dubbed anime except for highly budgeted animes, TFS and Ghost stories. I really wish to break the stigma here
Either way it doesn't matter since I hold the default position. If there was such vehement hatred for Subs as there is Dubs I'd argue against that too.
I prefer to Sub, because it just fits to the characters and its much more livelier than Dub...I chose Sub, because its awesome and what's more is that, you can practice Japanese language, "if" you want to...
I meant like Naruto, Bleach, Gundam, Inuyasha, the really mainstream ones that a TV station like CN or YTV would show. I'm wondering if any underrated ones gets any good dubs at all? Either that, or the sub-better-than-dub stigma remains.Green Platinum wrote:
Are there any high budget anime dubs?
Depressing, but true - my sister likes to constantly remind me of this.Green Platinum wrote:
Are there any high budget anime dubs? Considering dubbing anime is one of the lowest paying jobs in the industry?
I almost feel like they have to do well in order to get a dub, but I don't know that for a fact so don't take my word for it. It's just a guess.dagambler999 wrote:
I meant like Naruto, Bleach, Gundam, Inuyasha, the really mainstream ones that a TV station like CN or YTV would show. I'm wondering if any underrated ones gets any good dubs at all? Either that, or the sub-better-than-dub stigma remains.
Can probably throw Dragonball Z into that mix.
Ocean, Funi or TFS? I'd go with TFS dubs here ;PJustykanna wrote:
I almost feel like they have to do well in order to get a dub, but I don't know that for a fact so don't take my word for it. It's just a guess.
Can probably throw Dragonball Z into that mix.
Sub by far. There are so many reasons why sub is superior as opposed to dub. This applies to all forms of visual media.
Language of origin is important. Dubs can take away from that and can even make some things make little sense. Things like puns or word games can at least be explained in subtitles, but in dubs you are screwed. Original voices that actually match the mouthes of the characters also helps.
Most importantly however is that it is how the creator/director/makers originally intended it to be, and by replacing audio, you are in turn changing their original vision.
I'll admit that I have seen anime dubbed, who hasn't? But I make an effort to watch it in the language of origin.
The last time I watched a dubbed movie was in French class, when the teacher would put on an English, or once an Italian movie with a French dub, which is dumb because there are so many great French movies. Instead of showing us The Kite Runner or Life is Beautiful, show us La règle du jeu or Hiroshima, mon amour (which are fairly entry-level art house but are also quite good movies.) But I digress, no one wants to know about my High School French class.
I find it important to watch a movie in it's original language. Sure, sometimes for longer movies you might get a little tired of reading or if you are watching it super late you might get lost in the words (most recently for me: Sátántangó and The Hawks and the Sparrows respectively); but I think the payoff is worth it. Nonetheless, I don't even know if the two movies I just listed even have dubs.
Also, learning languages is neat; and actually starting to understand media of a different language then your primary is awesome. I can watch French movies without subtitles, and I am starting to pick up Japanese media as well.
If you watch dubs for whatever media for whatever reason, cool, I do think that there are benefits to doing so; but I personally am of the opinion that subs>dubs.
Language of origin is important. Dubs can take away from that and can even make some things make little sense. Things like puns or word games can at least be explained in subtitles, but in dubs you are screwed. Original voices that actually match the mouthes of the characters also helps.
Most importantly however is that it is how the creator/director/makers originally intended it to be, and by replacing audio, you are in turn changing their original vision.
I'll admit that I have seen anime dubbed, who hasn't? But I make an effort to watch it in the language of origin.
The last time I watched a dubbed movie was in French class, when the teacher would put on an English, or once an Italian movie with a French dub, which is dumb because there are so many great French movies. Instead of showing us The Kite Runner or Life is Beautiful, show us La règle du jeu or Hiroshima, mon amour (which are fairly entry-level art house but are also quite good movies.) But I digress, no one wants to know about my High School French class.
I find it important to watch a movie in it's original language. Sure, sometimes for longer movies you might get a little tired of reading or if you are watching it super late you might get lost in the words (most recently for me: Sátántangó and The Hawks and the Sparrows respectively); but I think the payoff is worth it. Nonetheless, I don't even know if the two movies I just listed even have dubs.
Also, learning languages is neat; and actually starting to understand media of a different language then your primary is awesome. I can watch French movies without subtitles, and I am starting to pick up Japanese media as well.
If you watch dubs for whatever media for whatever reason, cool, I do think that there are benefits to doing so; but I personally am of the opinion that subs>dubs.
Wow! So long reason...I like your opinion!kobolddragon wrote:
Sub by far. There are so many reasons why sub is superior as opposed to dub. This applies to all forms of visual media.
Language of origin is important. Dubs can take away from that and can even make some things make little sense. Things like puns or word games can at least be explained in subtitles, but in dubs you are screwed. Original voices that actually match the mouthes of the characters also helps.
Most importantly however is that it is how the creator/director/makers originally intended it to be, and by replacing audio, you are in turn changing their original vision.
I'll admit that I have seen anime dubbed, who hasn't? But I make an effort to watch it in the language of origin.
The last time I watched a dubbed movie was in French class, when the teacher would put on an English, or once an Italian movie with a French dub, which is dumb because there are so many great French movies. Instead of showing us The Kite Runner or Life is Beautiful, show us La règle du jeu or Hiroshima, mon amour (which are fairly entry-level art house but are also quite good movies.) But I digress, no one wants to know about my High School French class.
I find it important to watch a movie in it's original language. Sure, sometimes for longer movies you might get a little tired of reading or if you are watching it super late you might get lost in the words (most recently for me: Sátántangó and The Hawks and the Sparrows respectively); but I think the payoff is worth it. Nonetheless, I don't even know if the two movies I just listed even have dubs.
Also, learning languages is neat; and actually starting to understand media of a different language then your primary is awesome. I can watch French movies without subtitles, and I am starting to pick up Japanese media as well.
If you watch dubs for whatever media for whatever reason, cool, I do think that there are benefits to doing so; but I personally am of the opinion that subs>dubs.
Good points too. But I am unconvinced on the the directors intention being so important, any kind of symbolic interpretation is there for the audience to take and not for the creator to give out. If we are going to invalidate our interpretations for those of the creator does this also invalidate any adaptions since the staff are not the same? Of course bad adaptions happen all the time but most people would agree that a good adaption is about equal to the original.
We have already mentioned special cases like Ghost Stories which took immense liberties with it's script and there are examples like Card Captor Sakura, Sailor Moon and One Piece which all got censored upon English release. This is censorship and I don't think anyone defends this kind of dub. So at face value a dub should only change the vocal track and if we value the creators intended vision like kobolddragon suggests without knowing Japanese the choice of wording and dialogue essentially disappears either way.
In terms of puns and word-games I view it like a cultural joke is a sit-com etc not everyone is going to follow it anyway and how often is it that this is necessary to enjoy the experience? IMO anime is too punny already and it does more harm than good, sub or dub.
We have already mentioned special cases like Ghost Stories which took immense liberties with it's script and there are examples like Card Captor Sakura, Sailor Moon and One Piece which all got censored upon English release. This is censorship and I don't think anyone defends this kind of dub. So at face value a dub should only change the vocal track and if we value the creators intended vision like kobolddragon suggests without knowing Japanese the choice of wording and dialogue essentially disappears either way.
In terms of puns and word-games I view it like a cultural joke is a sit-com etc not everyone is going to follow it anyway and how often is it that this is necessary to enjoy the experience? IMO anime is too punny already and it does more harm than good, sub or dub.
I agree with the later two points, however in some ways I disagree with your first point. I think that the difference between dubs and subs is that while subbing is translating, dubbing is actually changing the media, most commonly without involvement with the director/producer(s)/writer(s)/etc.. You may 100% still get the same meaning from it, and sure if a dubbing is done right it won't take away from the experience; but more often than not I find that dubs take away from the film for multiple reasons. If you watch a movie with a dubbing in a different language, for example Amarcord, with both English subtitles and a dub, you will find that they do not match. More often than not the subbing has more proper grammar and will usually better entice the original view of the director. I personally believe that when you have the task of translating a creator's work, you should always attempt to make the fewest changes possible, and I think that that is more common with subs than dubs, from the hundreds of animes, movies, and video games I've played.Green Platinum wrote:
Good points too. But I am unconvinced on the the directors intention being so important, any kind of symbolic interpretation is there for the audience to take and not for the creator to give out. If we are going to invalidate our interpretations for those of the creator does this also invalidate any adaptions since the staff are not the same? Of course bad adaptions happen all the time but most people would agree that a good adaption is about equal to the original.
We have already mentioned special cases like Ghost Stories which took immense liberties with it's script and there are examples like Card Captor Sakura, Sailor Moon and One Piece which all got censored upon English release. This is censorship and I don't think anyone defends this kind of dub. So at face value a dub should only change the vocal track and if we value the creators intended vision like kobolddragon suggests without knowing Japanese the choice of wording and dialogue essentially disappears either way.
In terms of puns and word-games I view it like a cultural joke is a sit-com etc not everyone is going to follow it anyway and how often is it that this is necessary to enjoy the experience? IMO anime is too punny already and it does more harm than good, sub or dub.
I don't know why having perfect grammar is important? Do humans speak with perfect grammar all the time? Maybe it's there to simulate and accent, something a subtitle cannot really do.
Should we enforce the creators interpretation over all others. Do we now need to start to start disclaiming to viewers of Alice in Wonderland that it's about Lewis Carroll's position that Mathematics has become too absurd and transcendental?
Should we enforce the creators interpretation over all others. Do we now need to start to start disclaiming to viewers of Alice in Wonderland that it's about Lewis Carroll's position that Mathematics has become too absurd and transcendental?
Okay fair enough, you got me there. But nevertheless, if you are doing a Japanese dub on a movie based in Boston, chances are you will not be able to simulate that accent with a dub, so subs are preferable; or vise versa with trying to simulate an Osaka based accent in an English dub, won't quite be the same (and in a case with a film like The Makioka Sisters, where the difference between accents actually plays a role in the film can be important.) So subtitles can at least make the difference more clear (or less clear, I guess it really does depend.)Green Platinum wrote:
I don't know why having perfect grammar is important? Do humans speak with perfect grammar all the time? Maybe it's there to simulate and accent, something a subtitle cannot really do.
Should we enforce the creators interpretation over all others. Do we now need to start to start disclaiming to viewers of Alice in Wonderland that it's about Lewis Carroll's position that Mathematics has become too absurd and transcendental?
I'm not saying we need the creators interpretation over all others, all I'm saying is that we should try to limit the amount of changes to a preexistent work. I'm not saying we a disclaimer is needed to explain the authors intention, but nevertheless we shouldn't change something to make it more accessible if it changes the whole story. And while dubbing doesn't go to that extreme, it still does change the work more than subbing in my opinion.
Dubs generally tend to lose more meaning as they are translated, as not only does the written meaning change, the intonation and atmosphere are also lost as well (though again, highly dependent of the translation quality). I know this from experience as reading the English-translated Perfume by Patrick Suskind, watching the German movie release w/ sub and the English-dubbed release all tended to follow the same trend I described here, being originally a German piece of work.
Same would go for other American works that have encroached their way into the Japanese anime industry, (Cthullus Mythos by H.P. Lovecraft, Romeo and Juliet, etc.). All their meanings become skewed upon translation into a different medium. However, the skill comes from preserving the meaning of the original work along with employing a bit of freedom of the translation in order to connect with the audience better. Again, I personally find that it is more consistent with subs than dubs.
Meaning isn't only narrowed in the translation, but the medium itself. Light novels tend to have the most freedom of interpretation from the creator and audience, followed by manga and visual novels, ended with live-action movies and anime (including anime movies). So a light novel translated into English would have less uncertainty of meaning than an anime translated into English (with the same quality).
Same would go for other American works that have encroached their way into the Japanese anime industry, (Cthullus Mythos by H.P. Lovecraft, Romeo and Juliet, etc.). All their meanings become skewed upon translation into a different medium. However, the skill comes from preserving the meaning of the original work along with employing a bit of freedom of the translation in order to connect with the audience better. Again, I personally find that it is more consistent with subs than dubs.
Meaning isn't only narrowed in the translation, but the medium itself. Light novels tend to have the most freedom of interpretation from the creator and audience, followed by manga and visual novels, ended with live-action movies and anime (including anime movies). So a light novel translated into English would have less uncertainty of meaning than an anime translated into English (with the same quality).
Give me an example in anime where your point has had such an impact? Unless you claim cute girls and fanservice has some deep meaning to it, especially in light novels. Smart anime is dying off it seems and this could only be relevant to that 1%.
While we are arguing hypothetical scenarios, new meaning could conceivably come forth from a translation or adaption.
I still also fail to see why the creator's intent supersedes everything. "And therefore everything should be experienced in its original format" Seems to limit the creation to the time it was made rather than finding new relevant contexts.
While we are arguing hypothetical scenarios, new meaning could conceivably come forth from a translation or adaption.
I still also fail to see why the creator's intent supersedes everything. "And therefore everything should be experienced in its original format" Seems to limit the creation to the time it was made rather than finding new relevant contexts.
My mistake, I shouldn't have used light novels as examples. But for anything else like the novel I mentioned earlier, it's again loss of meaning.Green Platinum wrote:
Give me an example in anime where your point has had such an impact? Unless you claim cute girls and fanservice has some deep meaning to it, especially in light novels. Smart anime is dying off it seems and this could only be relevant to that 1%.
It's not that the creator intent supersedes everything, it's the creator's hope that their message gets through, despite people making their own meanings. Again, with middlemen getting in the way, that connection the author is trying to create with the audience gets diminished with the magnitude of translation (along with quality/skill of the translator). Some Japanese-illiterate people tolerate larger liberties with translations (such as the case with dub as intonation and mood are considerably changed) while other's such as myself tolerate less liberties (such as with sub, where only the speech is converted to text and nothing else is changed, maybe a glossary or TL notes along the side as well).Green Platinum wrote:
I still also fail to see why the creator's intent supersedes everything. "And therefore everything should be experienced in its original format" Seems to limit the creation to the time it was made rather than finding new relevant contexts.
I feel like I get more of what the author is trying to say with a more direct translation, and anything else tends to get in the way, as well as any extra inferences they are trying to portray (Take the original Grisaia no Kajitsu VN. The anime made considerably less use of the material in the 12-episode format. Now imagine the English dub...)
Pokemon is infamous for Funimation Americanizing their show, as many of the original Japanese references are removed for the sake of the American consumer base in addition to their dubs. That takes away from the original inferences in the original Japanese dub. That's why although I have the shit tastes for watching Pokemon from time to time, I watch it subbed rather than dubbed as personalities, mood and atmosphere do not betray the author's intent. That is, unless one is wildly out of context to begin with.
I still don't know these shows where they went and changed the mood of a scene and so much that the creators ideas are completely absent especially in recent years. Even with the OVA and season 2 Grisaia is still garbage (hilariously people defend it) I think there are much more serious problems especially with the characters.The Gambler wrote:
It's not that the creator intent supersedes everything, it's the creator's hope that their message gets through, despite people making their own meanings. Again, with middlemen getting in the way, that connection the author is trying to create with the audience gets diminished with the magnitude of translation (along with quality/skill of the translator). Some Japanese-illiterate people tolerate larger liberties with translations (such as the case with dub as intonation and mood are considerably changed) while other's such as myself tolerate less liberties (such as with sub, where only the speech is converted to text and nothing else is changed, maybe a glossary or TL notes along the side as well).
I feel like I get more of what the author is trying to say with a more direct translation, and anything else tends to get in the way, as well as any extra inferences they are trying to portray (Take the original Grisaia no Kajitsu VN. The anime made considerably less use of the material in the 12-episode format. Now imagine the English dub...)
This has been covered by me already.The Gambler wrote:
Pokemon is infamous for Funimation Americanizing their show, as many of the original Japanese references are removed for the sake of the American consumer base in addition to their dubs. That takes away from the original inferences in the original Japanese dub. That's why although I have the shit tastes for watching Pokemon from time to time, I watch it subbed rather than dubbed as personalities, mood and atmosphere do not betray the author's intent. That is, unless one is wildly out of context to begin with.
Green Platinum wrote:
We have already mentioned special cases like Ghost Stories which took immense liberties with it's script and there are examples like Card Captor Sakura, Sailor Moon and One Piece which all got censored upon English release. This is censorship and I don't think anyone defends this kind of dub.
Whoa, tl;dr got me there. However, I like where this convo is going. I'm out of ideas, happy critiquing ;PGreen Platinum wrote:
This has been covered by me already.The Gambler wrote:
Pokemon is infamous for Funimation Americanizing their show, as many of the original Japanese references are removed for the sake of the American consumer base in addition to their dubs. That takes away from the original inferences in the original Japanese dub. That's why although I have the shit tastes for watching Pokemon from time to time, I watch it subbed rather than dubbed as personalities, mood and atmosphere do not betray the author's intent. That is, unless one is wildly out of context to begin with.Green Platinum wrote:
We have already mentioned special cases like Ghost Stories which took immense liberties with it's script and there are examples like Card Captor Sakura, Sailor Moon and One Piece which all got censored upon English release. This is censorship and I don't think anyone defends this kind of dub.
I don't care.
Sub for sure it just feels better to watch than Dub
I choose subs because my native language is not english therefore i have some trouble understanding the dubs,also,the japanese VA fit the characters much more than english VA.
AutoMedic wrote:
Guys, remember that Japanese is really hard to learn, translate or master. Some anime exhibits references that cant be sometimes dubbed properly or the emotions was way too broken.
I'd say that both of them are good in their own terms. Not really an answer but this argument has been established ages ago so I wouldn't even doubt that there are sub weeaboo elitists here trying to defend it for being "original to the taste"
There are many other reasons as to why people feel that sub is better. Sometimes it just happens to fit in with the setting. (Nobunaga the Fool?) Other times it's just because we started off watching sub and it became something we were used to and to see those same characters in a different voice was just plain weird. Besides, who wants to listen to and obviously japanese looking guy talk in perfect english? It just doesn't totally work out.Also, I know Chinese... So hearing something similar to Chinese felt normal... I guess...
Sub as most dubbed voice acting is baaaaad.
Is there any good dubs for an anime series?
Is there any good dubs for an anime series?
BaccanoJOEMOMO wrote:
Sub as most dubbed voice acting is baaaaad.
Is there any good dubs for an anime series?
Hellsing Ultimate
Code Geass
Black Lagoon
Cowboy Bebop
Any high profile Film
Samurai Champloo
Afro Samurai
Full Metal Alchemist
etc.
I recall Gankutsuou having a pretty decent dubbing. (Not sure if mistaken)
The same criticism is never applied to japanese...
What is a good, a mediocre and a bad japanese dub?
What is a good, a mediocre and a bad japanese dub?
Thank youGreen Platinum wrote:
Baccano
Hellsing Ultimate
Code Geass
Black Lagoon
Cowboy Bebop
Any high profile Film
Samurai Champloo
Afro Samurai
Full Metal Alchemist
etc.
It's still a small number of good anime dubs.
JOEMOMO wrote:
Thank youGreen Platinum wrote:
Baccano
Hellsing Ultimate
Code Geass
Black Lagoon
Cowboy Bebop
Any high profile Film
Samurai Champloo
Afro Samurai
Full Metal Alchemist
etc.
It's still a small number of good anime dubs.
Green Platinum wrote:
The same criticism is never applied to japanese...
What is a good, a mediocre and a bad japanese dub?
So far I've preferred everything Subbed, except Initial D because for some reason I started watching it Dubbed and now I'm used to it.
You don't need to understand what they're saying. I can masturbate to raws perfectly fine.
who doesnt prefer sub over dub?
sub gives a more 'authentic experience'.
lol idk.
sub gives a more 'authentic experience'.
lol idk.
k den.Ochinchi-sama wrote:
You don't need to understand what they're saying. I can masturbate to raws perfectly fine.
As the poll shows, there are people who prefer dub. =P Just not many.7oker wrote:
who doesnt prefer sub over dub?
Pulxe_old