2015-08-14 19:01 -Kamikaze-: Hey there, do you have some time?
2015-08-14 19:02 -Kamikaze-: I wanted to discuss my map's DQ if you don't mind
2015-08-14 19:03 Spy: About ?
2015-08-14 19:03 -Kamikaze-: uhh I wanted to discuss LN problems in Granat
2015-08-14 19:04 -Kamikaze-: and work out some sort of middle ground on it
2015-08-14 19:04 -Kamikaze-: since I don't want to ruin the map
2015-08-14 19:05 Spy: Well
2015-08-14 19:05 Spy: So what do you want to discuss with me, explain how LN used ?
2015-08-14 19:06 -Kamikaze-: okay, first things first, let me open up the dq post
2015-08-14 19:07 -Kamikaze-: 00:24:153 - why those short LNs are such a problem?
2015-08-14 19:08 -Kamikaze-: they're being played same as normal notes
2015-08-14 19:08 -Kamikaze-: and have almost identical mechanics
2015-08-14 19:08 -Kamikaze-: they just look better
2015-08-14 19:14 Spy: Well, it is OD8, not OD7, or 6 or lower. Since you said it looks better, but you didn't use it in your diff, so does it make any sense ? Since it is high OD, personally I disagree such usage
2015-08-14 19:15 Spy: And everything under QATs' disscussion
2015-08-14 19:15 Spy: Even if I agree with that, but it is not mean totally fine in other QATs' mind
2015-08-14 19:15 -Kamikaze-: it's a GD, that's why it isn't in my diff
2015-08-14 19:16 -Kamikaze-: I mean, I get your point, but this should be okay as well in my view
2015-08-14 19:16 Spy: I know what you want to say
2015-08-14 19:17 Spy: But
2015-08-14 19:17 Spy: There is something not only you think it is fine, then it is fine
2015-08-14 19:17 Spy: Just like the case like Tidek's approved map
2015-08-14 19:17 Spy: When I was new BAT
2015-08-14 19:17 -Kamikaze-: oh yeah I remember that
2015-08-14 19:17 Spy: He asked me to check it for approved
2015-08-14 19:17 Spy: 1/16 LN
2015-08-14 19:18 Spy: I know his points
2015-08-14 19:18 -Kamikaze-: I'm okay with changing it to normal notes
2015-08-14 19:18 -Kamikaze-: I jsut think this would be cooler
2015-08-14 19:18 -Kamikaze-: gives that unique feeling
2015-08-14 19:18 Spy: But, we should think for players, and since we're check team, you should know we can't pass something easily, it will cause some unnecessary troubles in the future while checking maps
2015-08-14 19:19 Spy: Yea, this is same point like Tidek said to me
2015-08-14 19:20 Spy: But when players get 200 by your unique patterns, whose problem ?
2015-08-14 19:20 Spy: QATs. Because we didn't control the quality we should give them well
2015-08-14 19:20 -Kamikaze-: I don't think that it's that easy to 200, but I get your point
2015-08-14 19:20 Spy: Say it directly
2015-08-14 19:20 -Kamikaze-: how about making them 1/2 long instead
2015-08-14 19:22 Spy: QAT and normal mapper's views have some conflict, I only can say it, sometimes player think QAT dq the map with stupid reasons or what, but stand in our side, we just point out our concerns and discuss about it. Finally post it for dq reasons
2015-08-14 19:22 Spy: 1/2 is ok I think
2015-08-14 19:22 Spy: But does it necessary ?
2015-08-14 19:23 -Kamikaze-: it isn't necessary, but I want to follow zenx's style
2015-08-14 19:23 Spy: I think, I should repeat again
2015-08-14 19:23 Spy: Style, it is not only 1 way, it depends on how you use it in every songs
2015-08-14 19:23 -Kamikaze-: I'm aware of that
2015-08-14 19:24 -Kamikaze-: I don't want it to look same as in my diff or fullenere's diff tho
2015-08-14 19:24 Spy: I don't really want to ruin mapper's style
2015-08-14 19:24 Spy: But, did you ever thought a question ?
2015-08-14 19:24 Spy: Why some mappers' style can be accepted and be liked so much, but some are not ?
2015-08-14 19:25 -Kamikaze-: well because some just play bad
2015-08-14 19:25 -Kamikaze-: and some not
2015-08-14 19:25 Spy: So if follow to your words, my haters play my maps bad, right ?
2015-08-14 19:27 -Kamikaze-: well your so called haters do think that your maps play bad
2015-08-14 19:27 -Kamikaze-: I would say that most of your maps play well
2015-08-14 19:27 -Kamikaze-: but we're going slightly off topi here lol
2015-08-14 19:27 Spy: You don't want to make the diff like a normal diff
2015-08-14 19:27 Spy: Yea so I'm back to topic
2015-08-14 19:27 Spy: I think it has much ways to make it special
2015-08-14 19:27 Spy: Not only one way
2015-08-14 19:28 -Kamikaze-: I agree
2015-08-14 19:28 Spy: Sometimes
2015-08-14 19:28 -Kamikaze-: actually after thinking it through I think that 1/2 LNs will accent instruments better
2015-08-14 19:28 -Kamikaze-: I'll use them
2015-08-14 19:28 Spy: If you make your map TOO SPECIAL, it will causes it messy
2015-08-14 19:28 -Kamikaze-: I understand that
2015-08-14 19:29 Spy: What reason makes you want to discuss about it to me ? GD mapper complain ? Or you don't hope him to change it ?
2015-08-14 19:30 -Kamikaze-: I just disagree with some things that you guys pointed out
2015-08-14 19:30 -Kamikaze-: and I don't want to throw a tantrum, I want to calmly discuss it with you
2015-08-14 19:31 -Kamikaze-: zenx told me that I can delete his diff if I want, but I don't want to do that
2015-08-14 19:31 -Kamikaze-: I would rather just talk it through with you and get it re-qualified
2015-08-14 19:33 -Kamikaze-: 00:00:281 - that inconsistency (1 chord here instead of 2) was there because it's a start of the map and I don't want to make players face doubled pattern right away
2015-08-14 19:33 -Kamikaze-: is that bad?
2015-08-14 19:33 Spy: First, I have to tell you, I don't do dq for long time already, unless some emergency cases, but about this map, I only disagree with LN usages, too messy, other parts are fine
2015-08-14 19:33 Spy: I'm still same as that, "Do you think it is necessary"
2015-08-14 19:34 -Kamikaze-: that's what I wanted to discuss/improve
2015-08-14 19:34 -Kamikaze-: I think that making it inconsistent here was necessarcy in order to make it better to play
2015-08-14 19:35 Spy: Honestly
2015-08-14 19:35 Spy: 00:00:281 (281|0,612|1,778|3,944|4) - I can understand these
2015-08-14 19:36 Spy: 00:00:281 (281|4) - What is this and for, and why stop at 00:00:778 - , I tried to understand it well, but I didn't get it well
2015-08-14 19:37 Spy: It looks really messy for me
2015-08-14 19:37 -Kamikaze-: oh, that one is the problem
2015-08-14 19:37 -Kamikaze-: I just made that messy I have to agree there
2015-08-14 19:37 Spy: Other parts just same problem
2015-08-14 19:38 -Kamikaze-: I changed this LN to normal note and added another one for that crash sound
2015-08-14 19:38 Spy: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3533459
2015-08-14 19:38 Spy: How do you think
2015-08-14 19:38 Spy: I can understand yours, but I can't understand these
2015-08-14 19:39 -Kamikaze-: running out of space I assume
2015-08-14 19:39 -Kamikaze-: 00:02:436 (2436|4) - this should end earlier, right?
2015-08-14 19:40 Spy: it seems not the issue
2015-08-14 19:40 Spy: 00:03:265 (3265|4) - it seems this is for clap ? if so I don't get why it must be LN
2015-08-14 19:41 -Kamikaze-: it isn't for clap
2015-08-14 19:41 -Kamikaze-: it's just hitsound that accents the clap because there's no room for clap note
2015-08-14 19:41 -Kamikaze-: I've actually mapped this in a very similar way on my 8k, but I have a lot more space there so I could accent the clap
2015-08-14 19:44 Spy: Actually
2015-08-14 19:45 Spy: I only understand what are these LNs start for, but I don't get what is end for
2015-08-14 19:45 Spy: looks very messy
2015-08-14 19:46 -Kamikaze-: most of them, for example 00:04:259 (4259|3,4259|4,4259|0,4259|1,4591|3,4591|1,4757|4,4757|0,4922|1,4922|3) - would end right where next LN starts, but that's unplayable so it ends a tiny bit earlier to make a playable gap
2015-08-14 19:46 -Kamikaze-: the idea is that it's an inverted pattern
2015-08-14 19:48 -Kamikaze-: brb 10-15 mins
2015-08-14 19:48 Spy: OK
2015-08-14 19:48 -Kamikaze-: I'll ask you in advance if you could help me adjust part on 00:32:608 -  to make it good
2015-08-14 19:49 Spy: Alright, better earlier
2015-08-14 19:49 Spy: I'll sleep soon
2015-08-14 19:53 -Kamikaze-: ok back
2015-08-14 19:54 -Kamikaze-: I just had to clean one carpet instead of three whee xD
2015-08-14 19:55 -Kamikaze-: I would like to hear your opinion on what exactly you'd want me to change in the 00:01:275 - 00:06:249 -  part
2015-08-14 19:55 Spy: I see :p
2015-08-14 19:58 Spy: How if I say all ?
2015-08-14 19:58 Spy: First, I tried to play it once
2015-08-14 19:59 Spy: Then, I can't understand it in playing
2015-08-14 19:59 Spy: It is a very simple rhythm, but your patterns are too messy to understand
2015-08-14 20:00 Spy: Playability is minor honestly
2015-08-14 20:02 -Kamikaze-: hmm
2015-08-14 20:02 -Kamikaze-: what about [http://puu.sh/jBvuI/52ede87660.png this] at 00:02:436 - ?
2015-08-14 20:03 -Kamikaze-: it's the most accurate I can do
2015-08-14 20:05 Spy: I can accept it
2015-08-14 20:05 -Kamikaze-: okay, cool
2015-08-14 20:06 Spy: It looks better
2015-08-14 20:06 -Kamikaze-: moving on
2015-08-14 20:06 -Kamikaze-: what about [http://puu.sh/jBvL1/213b14fca2.png this] for those inverse patterns?
2015-08-14 20:08 Spy: It's fine but the patterns may need to rearrange
2015-08-14 20:08 Spy: I mean, it may not good for playing
2015-08-14 20:08 -Kamikaze-: actually I wasn't worried about playability at all, because it's pretty much a inversed symmetrical trill
2015-08-14 20:09 -Kamikaze-: it's quite easy to hit, especially now with bigger gaps
2015-08-14 20:11 Spy: Well, since it is Hard, not Insane, not Expert, you can't think about it in your view, you had better to think about it by standing in those really new players, it will be helpful for you to improve your maps
2015-08-14 20:12 -Kamikaze-: it works as Insane in this spread
2015-08-14 20:12 -Kamikaze-: each keymode consists of 4 difficulties
2015-08-14 20:12 -Kamikaze-: and the hardest ones are meant to be Insane or Hard+ at least
2015-08-14 20:13 -Kamikaze-: it is a well known fact that star rating heavily underrates LN heavy maps
2015-08-14 20:13 -Kamikaze-: so I'm judging it based on actual difficulty spread-wise
2015-08-14 20:13 Spy: That is your definition, but are you sure players, and other QATs think so ?
2015-08-14 20:14 -Kamikaze-: players - yes QATs - mostly yes
2015-08-14 20:14 -Kamikaze-: in fact even developers are aware of that
2015-08-14 20:14 -Kamikaze-: namely Tom - the guy who made SR algorithms
2015-08-14 20:14 -Kamikaze-: he's gathering our opinions and working on new SR system
2015-08-14 20:21 Spy: Talk about it next time
2015-08-14 20:22 Spy: Since I have to go to work tomorrow, I have to sleep earlier, it is 02:21 here
2015-08-14 20:22 -Kamikaze-: but yeah
2015-08-14 20:22 -Kamikaze-: okay
2015-08-14 20:22 -Kamikaze-: can we go through rest of this tomorrow?
2015-08-14 20:22 -Kamikaze-: I'll try to adjust by myself and update afterwards
2015-08-14 20:22 Spy: It's ok
2015-08-14 20:22 Spy: Just adjust by such way
2015-08-14 20:23 Spy: I think I may not disagree too much
2015-08-14 20:23 Spy: And you can ask Starry for opinions too
2015-08-14 20:23 -Kamikaze-: I'll make it so LNs end where some others start too so there won't be much problems
2015-08-14 20:23 -Kamikaze-: he told me to ask expew but expew ignores me
2015-08-14 20:23 -Kamikaze-: lol
2015-08-14 20:23 Spy: OK, I'll expect you do it well
2015-08-14 20:23 Spy: ExPew is uh
2015-08-14 20:23 Spy: busy
2015-08-14 20:23 Spy: :p
2015-08-14 20:23 -Kamikaze-: yeah I know
2015-08-14 20:24 -Kamikaze-: I remember struggle with funka
2015-08-14 20:24 -Kamikaze-: lol
2015-08-14 20:24 -Kamikaze-: anyway, thanks a lot for that!
2015-08-14 20:24 -Kamikaze-: what hour would be good for you tomorrow to discuss that?
2015-08-14 20:25 Spy: You're welcome, well, when you see I'm in idle, it may be fine I think
2015-08-14 20:25 Spy: I'll be free after 23:00 ? I think
2015-08-14 20:25 -Kamikaze-: okay, cool
2015-08-14 20:25 -Kamikaze-: \o/
2015-08-14 20:26 Spy: Good luck then :D
2015-08-14 20:26 -Kamikaze-: thanks!
2015-08-14 20:26 Spy: You're welcome, alright, see you ~
2015-08-14 20:26 -Kamikaze-: cya o/
2015-08-14 20:26 Spy: o/

20:52 Starry-: i think im okay now
20:52 Starry-: whats up
20:52 -Kamikaze-: I wanted you to check first and last LN part
20:52 -Kamikaze-: and give me feedback on it
20:53 -Kamikaze-: rest is pretty much clear
20:53 Starry-: hmm ok
20:53 Starry-: what did Spy say btw? :P
20:54 -Kamikaze-: Spy said that he can understand where LNs start, but not when they end
20:55 -Kamikaze-: I've talked with him mostly about first 8 seconds
20:55 -Kamikaze-: and this point of DQ
20:55 -Kamikaze-: he agreed with my changes on specific patterns, but he didn't really check it as a whole
20:56 -Kamikaze-: also we talked about those tap LNs, I changed them to 1/2 LNs
20:58 Starry-: the struggles of getting inverse LNs ranked rip
20:58 -Kamikaze-: ikr
20:59 -Kamikaze-: mainly what I want to hear your opinion about is 1) are gaps between sections in first part not DQ-able and stuff
20:59 -Kamikaze-: and 2) is last part okay
21:02 Starry-: i mean like
21:02 Starry-: 00:01:275 (1275|1,1275|2,1275|4,1275|3,1275|0,1607|0,1607|4,1773|1,1773|3,1938|0,1938|4) -  stuff like this is fine to me now
21:02 -Kamikaze-: I increased gap there from 1/4 to 1/2 and spy agreed to that
21:02 Starry-: taking a look at the other parts
21:03 -Kamikaze-: gap between sections as in gap between 00:00:281 (281|0,612|1,778|3,944|4,1275|4,1275|2,1275|1,1275|3,1275|0) - for example
21:03 -Kamikaze-: that kinda worries me
21:04 Starry-: nooooooo
21:04 Starry-: i fced up to 00:41:726 (41726|2,42058|0,42058|2) -
21:04 Starry-: here
21:04 Starry-: and i broke
21:04 Starry-: ;______;
21:04 -Kamikaze-: lmfao
21:04 Starry-: anyways
21:04 -Kamikaze-: how'd you miss there xD
21:04 Starry-: i think those gaps are fine for me personally
21:04 Starry-: IDK
21:05 Starry-: 00:41:395 (41395|3) - i let go of this when the first spacebar note comes
21:05 -Kamikaze-: lmao
21:05 Starry-: im just bad at LNs
21:05 Starry-: those 1/4 gaps between measures should be fine
21:06 Starry-: although my opinion doesn't really represent the QAT opinion that well
21:06 Starry-: it's fine to have inconsistent gaps considering 1/2 gap for the melody and 1/4 for the measure shift
21:06 -Kamikaze-: well, I'm gonna double-check it with Spy tomorrow anyway
21:06 -Kamikaze-: but having 2 QATs agree on changes makes it pretty much a safe rank
21:06 -Kamikaze-: imo
21:07 -Kamikaze-: especially that rest of diffs seems fine
21:07 Starry-: 1x200 nooo
21:07 Starry-: everything feels a lot better to acc
21:07 Starry-: since the last rank
21:08 -Kamikaze-: ooo nice
21:08 Starry-: spy might have a few issues with um
21:08 -Kamikaze-: I thought about that end pattern, and I've come up with this http://puu.sh/jBzwB/5e6473fdfd.png
21:08 Starry-: 00:32:111 (32111|4,32277|3,32442|1,32608|3,32774|1,32940|0) -
21:09 -Kamikaze-: oh yeah, about that
21:09 Starry-: wat
21:09 Starry-: thats the same end pattern
21:09 -Kamikaze-: nah
21:09 -Kamikaze-: notice how it goes 12 543
21:09 Starry-: you updated it already? :p
21:09 -Kamikaze-: instead of 15243
21:09 -Kamikaze-: not yet
21:09 Starry-: oh im dumb
21:09 Starry-: and tired
21:09 Starry-: please forgive me
21:09 -Kamikaze-: loling
21:09 Starry-: LOL oh man
21:09 -Kamikaze-: haha np man
21:10 Starry-: should be okay
21:10 -Kamikaze-: about 00:32:111 (32111|4) - I have a backup plan
21:10 -Kamikaze-: in case spy goes nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
21:10 Starry-: but 12543 and 15243 regardless theyre both ok
21:10 Starry-: and oo
21:10 -Kamikaze-: well I think that 12543 is less breakable
21:10 -Kamikaze-: as for the LN I can just shorten 00:32:111 (32111|4) - to 1/2
21:10 -Kamikaze-: but uhh
21:11 -Kamikaze-: it wouldn't be optimal
21:11 Starry-: oh
21:11 Starry-: all of them LNs to 1/2?
21:11 Starry-: ow
21:11 -Kamikaze-: only this one
21:11 Starry-: last resort pls
21:11 -Kamikaze-: in that measure
21:11 -Kamikaze-: I've also made some polishing on consistency
21:12 -Kamikaze-: like I made those consistent 00:34:100 (34100|4,34266|3,34432|0,34597|1) - 
21:12 -Kamikaze-: left LNs were 1/2 longer
21:12 Starry-: 00:32:111 (32111|4) - would still suffice on 1/1 and it'll still be consistent
21:12 Starry-: and ah
21:13 -Kamikaze-: o 1/1 would be cool
21:13 -Kamikaze-: will remember
21:13 -Kamikaze-: 00:36:090 - this part is okay to you?
21:14 Starry-: it plays fine for me but i can see complaints about usage of 1/2 LNs compared to 1/1 LNs not being consistent
21:15 -Kamikaze-: well the only inconsistency I would agree with would be 00:36:918 (36918|1) - 
21:15 -Kamikaze-: in those two measures
21:16 -Kamikaze-: that would make LNs kinda taekwonburi
21:16 -Kamikaze-: not sure if it's a good idea
21:16 Starry-: ew
21:16 -Kamikaze-: ye
21:16 Starry-: it's fine for me tbh since it's the end of measure anyways
21:17 -Kamikaze-: what would you suggest in case I have to change it?
21:18 -Kamikaze-: hmm I see that every mesure ends with 1/2 LN here
21:19 Starry-: no LNs overlap from any measure which is super tidy <:
21:19 Starry-: id rather not have it changed
21:20 -Kamikaze-: oh yeah you're right
21:20 -Kamikaze-: I thought that one LN in that measure goes through
21:20 -Kamikaze-: idk why
21:20 -Kamikaze-: yeah it should be good to go now
21:21 -Kamikaze-: imma update now
21:21 -Kamikaze-: done
21:22 Starry-: alright nice
21:22 -Kamikaze-: see how it looks now
21:23 -Kamikaze-: damn now I really regret getting that stupid ass silence
21:23 -Kamikaze-: it would've been halfway through qualify now
21:25 Starry-: rip aa
21:25 Starry-: the wooshiaq silience?
21:25 -Kamikaze-: that created stack
21:25 -Kamikaze-: which caused me to get 1 week for stupid 5min worthy thing
21:25 -Kamikaze-: lol
21:25 Starry-: oh
21:26 Starry-: RIP
21:26 Starry-: only kinda nitpick inconsistent thing i can find is
21:26 Starry-: 00:34:100 (34100|4) - this is extended 00:35:095 (35095|1) - so why isn't this
21:28 -Kamikaze-: it would make it too messy imo
21:28 -Kamikaze-: unless you have a good solution to that
21:28 Starry-: you can shorten the others maybe and build around it
21:28 Starry-: or make it similar to the last measure
21:29 Starry-: sec
21:29 Starry-: puush is rip
21:29 -Kamikaze-: I don't really like the idea of shortening those
21:30 Starry-: i mean like if you have to
21:30 Starry-: only solution would be https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/3533960
21:31 Starry-: and i guess it doesn't play as well as a 125412 so it doesn't have the same effect
21:31 Starry-: idk
21:31 -Kamikaze-: holy crack that is kinda bad looking
21:31 -Kamikaze-: hmm, it is a new measure tho
21:31 Starry-: its exactly the same as the 3rd measure but inverted :P
21:31 -Kamikaze-: which is kinda a mix of first one and the one before this
21:31 Starry-: there's 6 measures at the end with the LN parts
21:31 Starry-: first 2 are basically the same
21:32 Starry-: last 2 are basically the same
21:32 -Kamikaze-: oh I see where you're going
21:33 Starry-: i mean thats just me looking at things so
21:33 Starry-: Spy might say something different tomorrow
21:33 -Kamikaze-: http://puu.sh/jBB5Z/7f98de5cb8.png is this too aids
21:33 Starry-: and im awful at making inverse LN patterns so uhuhu
21:35 Starry-: plays fine to me and it's a lot more consistent compared to last time
21:35 -Kamikaze-: okay I'll go with that
21:35 -Kamikaze-: updating
21:35 -Kamikaze-: ok done
21:38 Starry-: feels natural
21:38 Starry-: goodgood
21:38 -Kamikaze-: collio
21:38 -Kamikaze-: coolio*
21:38 -Kamikaze-: a
21:38 -Kamikaze-: okay, thanks a lot man <3
21:39 Starry-: np! just gotta double check with Spy now ;_;
21:39 -Kamikaze-: yeah, we'll go through it tomorrow
21:39 -Kamikaze-: and then let's rollllllllllllllllllllll

19:39 -Kamikaze-: hey Spy, are you free now?
20:37 Spy: I got a few time now
20:37 -Kamikaze-: oh cool
20:37 -Kamikaze-: I wanted you to recheck Granat if you can
20:37 -Kamikaze-: I've talked with Starry about it
20:37 Spy: np the map
20:38 -Kamikaze-: we made some changes, polished up inconsistencies and he says it's good
20:38 *-Kamikaze- is listening to [http://osu.ppy.sh/b/652554 Drop - Granat]
20:40 -Kamikaze-: I've posted our chatlog [https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/4424807/ here] if you wanna know what we talked about
20:41 Spy: It looks better
20:41 Spy: But 2 points I hope you improve it
20:42 Spy: 1.OD
20:42 Spy: 2.hitsound
20:42 -Kamikaze-: Starry played it quickly and got 1x200
20:42 -Kamikaze-: wow why hitsounds
20:42 Spy: the soft-hitclap sounds annoying
20:42 -Kamikaze-: I've spent whole month getting those ready
20:42 Spy: Only this
20:42 -Kamikaze-: let me see
20:43 -Kamikaze-: it was meant to be like that
20:43 -Kamikaze-: I really really like it
20:43 -Kamikaze-: I'm gonna lower OD to 7,5 just to be safe
20:44 Spy: OK
20:44 -Kamikaze-: so, you're fine with how it is now?
20:44 -Kamikaze-: the patterns I mean
20:45 Spy: About hitsound, I have nothing to say, it is your map, you decide, it won't be dq reason. But personally I dislike that I mentioned
20:45 Spy: It's fine
20:45 -Kamikaze-: yeah, I just want to leave it there because I like it a lot
20:45 -Kamikaze-: anyway, thanks a lot! :D
20:46 Spy: You're welcome, good luck then