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thnikk's Osu! Keypads [Development]

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ZenithPhantasm
Input lag in ms= 1/fpsx1000+1000/pollingrate+displaylag(CRTs have no display lag whatsoever)+framebuffer
E m i

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Input lag in ms= 1/fpsx1000+1000/pollingrate+displaylag(CRTs have no display lag whatsoever)+framebuffer
Well, seems right.
Also, I was only pointing out the effect of input lag variability on accuracy, but truth is that input lag also fiddles with hand synchronization.
example:
rrtyui
gangsta
cursor on slider, sliderbreak :oops:
ZenithPhantasm

[ Momiji ] wrote:

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Input lag in ms= 1/fpsx1000+1000/pollingrate+displaylag(CRTs have no display lag whatsoever)+framebuffer
Well, seems right.
Also, I was only pointing out the effect of input lag variability on accuracy, but truth is that input lag also fiddles with hand synchronization.
example:
rrtyui
gangsta
cursor on slider, sliderbreak :oops:
Its particularly dangerous for mouse players because mouse feels like crap unless you set polling rate to 500hz+.
Input lag of default/office mice (125hz): 8ms
Input lag of gaming mice (500-1000hz): 1-2 ms
Input lag of most keyboards (125hz): 8ms
Input lag of Wacom tablets (133hz): 7.52ms
Input lag of Huion tablets (200hz): 5ms

Assuming a player using a Wacom and a 125hz keyboard, he/she only has to deal with a 0.48ms difference which is unnoticeable.

However, a mouse player using a high end mouse and a 125hz keyboard has to deal with a 7ms difference which is massive and certainly noticeable for most people (yes you can still work around it but it wouldn't be the same).
SupraKyun
So the delay thing isn't really an issue, at least at my level XD. Do you think you are going to upgrade it anytime soon on anything?
Topic Starter
Thnikk

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Its particularly dangerous for mouse players because mouse feels like crap unless you set polling rate to 500hz+.
Input lag of default/office mice (125hz): 8ms
Input lag of gaming mice (500-1000hz): 1-2 ms
Input lag of most keyboards (125hz): 8ms
Input lag of Wacom tablets (133hz): 7.52ms
Input lag of Huion tablets (200hz): 5ms

Assuming a player using a Wacom and a 125hz keyboard, he/she only has to deal with a 0.48ms difference which is unnoticeable.

However, a mouse player using a high end mouse and a 125hz keyboard has to deal with a 7ms difference which is massive and certainly noticeable for most people (yes you can still work around it but it wouldn't be the same).
I had no idea it was so low on wacom tablets. Again, thank you guys for providing such insightful information for me any everyone else in the thread.

SupraKyun wrote:

So the delay thing isn't really an issue, at least at my level XD. Do you think you are going to upgrade it anytime soon on anything?
Probably not, aside from some additional keycap options. I'm settled on all of the parts for the time being. If anything, there might be a higher price teensy model for 1000hz that will be made in small quantity, but it will be identical in every other way and it wouldn't happen for at least a few weeks.
SupraKyun
Oh okay, thank you!

Edit: I bought one! Tell me if you need some review once i receive it! I kinda live in France so i wonder how long it will take o- O
UberBagel
What skin did you use during the demonstration video?
Topic Starter
Thnikk

SupraKyun wrote:

Oh okay, thank you!

Edit: I bought one! Tell me if you need some review once i receive it! I kinda live in France so i wonder how long it will take o- O
Average time for first class mail is 1-3 weeks, but it averages at a little over a week in my experience. If you'd like to leave some feedback/a review here in the thread, that would be wonderful!

UberBagel wrote:

What skin did you use during the demonstration video?
I think you mean Kev's demo video which is available for download on his profile here.
SupraKyun
Sure, i will leave some feedback once i receive it :D. Cloudy Keycaps with Cherry MX Red *q*.
Just wondering if the tape gonna do anything to my desktop, can the tape be sticked on wood things or maybe i stick it to my old mousepad?
Te Amo

SupraKyun wrote:

Sure, i will leave some feedback once i receive it :D. Cloudy Keycaps with Cherry MX Red *q*.
Just wondering if the tape gonna do anything to my desktop, can the tape be sticked on wood things or maybe i stick it to my old mousepad?
Mouse pad because mouse pads also don't slide as much so it will prevent the keypad from moving so much too.
SupraKyun

KevEz wrote:

SupraKyun wrote:

Sure, i will leave some feedback once i receive it :D. Cloudy Keycaps with Cherry MX Red *q*.
Just wondering if the tape gonna do anything to my desktop, can the tape be sticked on wood things or maybe i stick it to my old mousepad?
Mouse pad because mouse pads also don't slide as much so it will prevent the keypad from moving so much too.
I see, well i hope it will stick fine on da mousepad and the tape better last for a while XD. Now, just waiting for the keypad to come! :D
I hope there is no disadvantage if i use the keypad with the right hand? Because i'm left handed so i'm using the tablet with my lefthand and keyboard with my right hand.
KevEz, are you only playing with the keypad now?
Topic Starter
Thnikk
OP updated after an eternity.

SupraKyun wrote:

KevEz wrote:

Mouse pad because mouse pads also don't slide as much so it will prevent the keypad from moving so much too.
I see, well i hope it will stick fine on da mousepad and the tape better last for a while XD. Now, just waiting for the keypad to come! :D
I hope there is no disadvantage if i use the keypad with the right hand? Because i'm left handed so i'm using the tablet with my lefthand and keyboard with my right hand.
KevEz, are you only playing with the keypad now?
There shouldn't be. The escape key was placed to be pushed by the side of your ring finger (which does sound pretty awkward,) but can also be used with your thumb.

If you stick it to a cloth mousepad, ignore the PS on the note in the box :?
Te Amo
As of now.. Yes I'm only using the keypad. The keypad works fine, its just up to you to improve and get better at the game overall.
ZenithPhantasm
Topic Starter
Thnikk

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

I heard this could solve all those tape problems
I've tried rubber feet initially and they didn't work particularly well, mainly because they keypads aren't heavy enough. The cable has more influence on it than anything else, and while playing you just sort of nudge it around. These do look a little bit more rubbery than my last ones though, so I'll give it a shot.

I also have 7 radio shacks within a 10 mile radius of me and they're $2. How could I go wrong?
ZenithPhantasm
KevEz can I have the replay files from your thnikk keypad and rubberdome comparison?
Also please link me the map.
Te Amo

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

KevEz can I have the replay files from your thnikk keypad and rubberdome comparison?
Also please link me the map.
Map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/24634
Keypad replay: http://puu.sh/etI9f/ac6bd34e28.osr
RubberDome Replay: http://puu.sh/etIpb/f606a4d0d2.osr
SupraKyun
Anyway, i'm excited to try it with all the lightning and stuff Q.Q xD.
I saw you sent it earlier today :D. Now just have to wait for it :D
ZenithPhantasm

Thnikk wrote:

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

I heard this could solve all those tape problems
I've tried rubber feet initially and they didn't work particularly well, mainly because they keypads aren't heavy enough. The cable has more influence on it than anything else, and while playing you just sort of nudge it around. These do look a little bit more rubbery than my last ones though, so I'll give it a shot.

I also have 7 radio shacks within a 10 mile radius of me and they're $2. How could I go wrong?
If all else fails:
+

IT MIGHT NOT BE PRETTY BUT IT WILL WORK!
SupraKyun
I exactly have something like your picture on the right!
Topic Starter
Thnikk
I was playing around a bit today:


Unfortunately, I couldn't get pin 4 working with the LED so I had to use pins 1 and 2 for the LEDs and have the buttons share pin 3. Not ideal and I'd still like to try to get pin 4 working, but it doesn't seem to play too well with the keyboard library.

SupraKyun wrote:

Anyway, i'm excited to try it with all the lightning and stuff Q.Q xD.
I saw you sent it earlier today :D. Now just have to wait for it :D

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

I'm happy you're excited for it :)

If all else fails:
GLUE + WOOD

IT MIGHT NOT BE PRETTY BUT IT WILL WORK!
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought of that. Just replace the wood with a plastic mouse pad and the glue with tape and add a wrist rest underneath.
sangu
For gripping the table without using tape, I would suggest trying some silicon rubber single sided tape. These tapes have a static coefficient of friction of up to 4. I have used these tapes to grip everything from plywood to the surface of poly-carbonate. However, these tapes only stick to themselves... Actually, maybe this stuff isn't the best for your application

Another thing you can try is to buy 2 magnets of decent strength, glue one to the bottom of the keypad and place the other on the underside of the table. (these have a 6.1 lb pulling force and should be small enough for your project, but do be careful, neodymium magnets are very fragile especially thin N48's) Then, place a strip of rubberized tape over the underside of the keypad including the face of the glued magnet. Because the Micro-controller uses flash memory rather than magnetic disks, the presence of the magnet will not erase any data. The rubber tape plays two parts in this, it increases the friction with the table surface, as well as damping the vibrations caused by key-hits. (which keeps the board from being vibrated off position)
ZenithPhantasm

sanguisinvia wrote:

For gripping the table without using tape, I would suggest trying some silicon rubber single sided tape. These tapes have a static coefficient of friction of up to 4. I have used these tapes to grip everything from plywood to the surface of poly-carbonate. However, these tapes only stick to themselves... Actually, maybe this stuff isn't the best for your application

Another thing you can try is to buy 2 magnets of decent strength, glue one to the bottom of the keypad and place the other on the underside of the table. (these have a 6.1 lb pulling force and should be small enough for your project, but do be careful, neodymium magnets are very fragile especially thin N48's) Then, place a strip of rubberized tape over the underside of the keypad including the face of the glued magnet. Because the Micro-controller uses flash memory rather than magnetic disks, the presence of the magnet will not erase any data. The rubber tape plays two parts in this, it increases the friction with the table surface, as well as damping the vibrations caused by key-hits. (which keeps the board from being vibrated off position)
The springs inside the switches are made of steel I think.
sangu

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

The springs inside the switches are made of steel I think.
From what I can find, the springs are made from stainless steel, which is generally non-magnetic. However, the sources disagree with each other on whether the stainless steel used is a magnetic strand. But for the sake of argument, let's say that they were magnetic, the small springs would be magnetized toward the bottom of the plate. Due to their housing, they cannot move around, so as far as I can tell, there would be no issue with magnets even if the springs were magnetic.
ZenithPhantasm
What about when the spring is compressed?
sangu

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

What about when the spring is compressed?
What?... The material of the spring remains constant, and even when the spring is fully compressed, it is still firmly attached on all edges... To go even further, the springs are more constrained when they are compressed... I don't quite understand what you are trying to get at...
Topic Starter
Thnikk

sanguisinvia wrote:

For gripping the table without using tape, I would suggest trying some silicon rubber single sided tape. These tapes have a static coefficient of friction of up to 4. I have used these tapes to grip everything from plywood to the surface of poly-carbonate. However, these tapes only stick to themselves... Actually, maybe this stuff isn't the best for your application

Another thing you can try is to buy 2 magnets of decent strength, glue one to the bottom of the keypad and place the other on the underside of the table. (these have a 6.1 lb pulling force and should be small enough for your project, but do be careful, neodymium magnets are very fragile especially thin N48's) Then, place a strip of rubberized tape over the underside of the keypad including the face of the glued magnet. Because the Micro-controller uses flash memory rather than magnetic disks, the presence of the magnet will not erase any data. The rubber tape plays two parts in this, it increases the friction with the table surface, as well as damping the vibrations caused by key-hits. (which keeps the board from being vibrated off position)
I think I have some neodymium magnets lying around so I'll give it a try, but I have 2 concerns. The contacts inside the switch are magnetic so this could cause them to stick (though there's a decent distance between the keyswitches and the magnet if it was mounted to the bottom of the keypad,) and thicker desks. My ikea desk is almost an inch and a half thick, and since this is a variable for customers, I'd rather not rely on it since its effectiveness would be inconsistent.
sangu

Thnikk wrote:

The contacts inside the switch are magnetic so this could cause them to stick (though there's a decent distance between the keyswitches and the magnet if it was mounted to the bottom of the keypad,) and thicker desks.
The switches have gold cross-point contacts, gold is non-magnetic. But for the sake of argument, and because they are only gold plated, we'll say that the inner material is magnetic. Even so, you would need a much stronger magnet if you wanted to even dream of deforming the metal contacts, especially if you look at how the magnetic force would be applied to the contacts themselves. (The contacts are separated by a piece of plastic which is attached to the stem of the switch (the plus piece that the key attaches to) In order for the magnet to trigger a connection between the contacts, it would need to be able to move that plastic piece downwards)

Thnikk wrote:

My ikea desk is almost an inch and a half thick, and since this is a variable for customers, I'd rather not rely on it since its effectiveness would be inconsistent.
I never said that this was an end-all solution, only a possible solution for those who didn't want to use tape or glue on their desks. But I am interested in seeing your final solution for securing such a light object to the table.
Topic Starter
Thnikk

sanguisinvia wrote:

Thnikk wrote:

The contacts inside the switch are magnetic so this could cause them to stick (though there's a decent distance between the keyswitches and the magnet if it was mounted to the bottom of the keypad,) and thicker desks.
The switches have gold cross-point contacts, gold is non-magnetic. But for the sake of argument, and because they are only gold plated, we'll say that the inner material is magnetic. Even so, you would need a much stronger magnet if you wanted to even dream of deforming the metal contacts, especially if you look at how the magnetic force would be applied to the contacts themselves. (The contacts are separated by a piece of plastic which is attached to the stem of the switch (the plus piece that the key attaches to) In order for the magnet to trigger a connection between the contacts, it would need to be able to move that plastic piece downwards)

Thnikk wrote:

My ikea desk is almost an inch and a half thick, and since this is a variable for customers, I'd rather not rely on it since its effectiveness would be inconsistent.
I never said that this was an end-all solution, only a possible solution for those who didn't want to use tape or glue on their desks. But I am interested in seeing your final solution for securing such a light object to the table. (If your going to go with tape, use painter's tape, as it is designed to not damage the surface to which it is applied)
Looked at the switch gifs again and you're totally right. I was thinking everything was the opposite (even though I've opened switches before.)

I'm going to mess around with it a bit while waiting for parts for the next batch (when this one sells out, 7/9 sold.) I want to try these out and I guess I'll add painter's tape to the list, too! :)
The Gambler
How about using velcro tape??? Cheap to swing by Home Depot and picking up a strip or two. Not as elegant but it works :)

If you're worried about movability you could velcro it to some hardcover book or something
stal
Received the keypad today (Cherry MX Red switches) and I've been playing with it for around an hour or so. It's not much of a review but hopefully it would help a little.

There was something wrong with the shipping at first but it was actually resolved quite quickly and thnikk threw in extra keycaps, which I thought was a really nice gesture. :D

Everything was alright, nothing got wrecked from the shipping and everything was in good condition. It only took me a minute to start. The only thing was that the keypad was so light, so it started moving around everywhere when I was playing with it. I'm not sure if it's not supposed to come with the tape or anything, but I found an alternative solution (?) that stopped it from moving around since my streamings are quite... intense.

The O-rings were completely fine too. It actually reduces the noise significantly and it's much easier to press down on the keys. This might be personal preference though, but I thought it would be good to just touch on it a little.

It's been an hour or so and everything's going good. There's no delay when I'm playing and I'm loving this keypad a lot! I'll update if there's any issues but honestly, I doubt there would be any. I wouldn't be able to show any live play or any pro plays since I'm only 13k but if a replay would help, I'll gladly contribute. :D

tl;dr 10/10 just go and get it already

SupraKyun
I'm still waiting for mine D:<
but it was supposed to come with the tape o - O
Topic Starter
Thnikk
If anyone who's made a purchase would like to leave a review on Etsy, I wouuld really appreciate it. I didn't realize that was a thing until yesterday. I'm still very new to Etsy :?

My demo video of the leds fading out seems like a distant dream. I'm running into issues with the trinket not recognizing the keys being held down properly even though I was very liberal with the analog values. I'll have to look into it more, but it definitely won't make its way into the next batch.

Dreamify wrote:

Received the keypad today (Cherry MX Red switches) and I've been playing with it for around an hour or so. It's not much of a review but hopefully it would help a little.

There was something wrong with the shipping at first but it was actually resolved quite quickly and thnikk threw in extra keycaps, which I thought was a really nice gesture. :D

Everything was alright, nothing got wrecked from the shipping and everything was in good condition. It only took me a minute to start. The only thing was that the keypad was so light, so it started moving around everywhere when I was playing with it. I'm not sure if it's not supposed to come with the tape or anything, but I found an alternative solution (?) that stopped it from moving around since my streamings are quite... intense.

The O-rings were completely fine too. It actually reduces the noise significantly and it's much easier to press down on the keys. This might be personal preference though, but I thought it would be good to just touch on it a little.

It's been an hour or so and everything's going good. There's no delay when I'm playing and I'm loving this keypad a lot! I'll update if there's any issues but honestly, I doubt there would be any. I wouldn't be able to show any live play or any pro plays since I'm only 13k but if a replay would help, I'll gladly contribute. :D

tl;dr 10/10 just go and get it already

[image]
Glad you like it! At this point I'd like to keep replays for anyone that wants to show off, so you can if you'd like to.

Sorry, I can't believe I messed up the shipping and forgot the tape. I'm happy to see that you came up with your own solution, though!

SupraKyun wrote:

I'm still waiting for mine D:<
but it was supposed to come with the tape o - O
I know you got your tape for sure because I almost forgot it. I made a checklist after for future orders to make sure everything's included.
The Gambler
In terms of novelty, how about pre-assembling these boards with a case instead?
http://techkeys.us/collections/accessor ... iness-card

List of Items:
http://techkeys.us/cart

Should somewhat ease your build times
Topic Starter
Thnikk

dagambler999 wrote:

In terms of novelty, how about pre-assembling these boards with a case instead?
http://techkeys.us/collections/accessor ... iness-card

List of Items:
http://techkeys.us/cart

Should somewhat ease your build times
Sorry! I was in a rush earlier and forgot to reply to your post. I wasn't trying to ignore you.

Velcro could be okay (I'm thinking scotch's where it's just one side that sticks to itself) if I was to include 3 pieces. One could be attached to the keypad and the other two could be used on whatever surface you want to stick it to. I definitely want to try the reusable adhesive strip first, but maybe having options available isn't a bad idea.

I'm not a huge fan of the techkeys business card. I think they're cool as a novelty for techkeys (it's one hell of a business card,) but not very good for osu. The physical button layout is kind of strange, they're large, and they're expensive (trinkets are almost $6.) I'm afraid that my keypads are cost prohibitive enough as is, so having another option that I wouldn't realistically be able to sell for less than techkeys doesn't seem viable. All I would really be doing would be adding a large precut case, and I could probably match his price of $40, but I don't think you'd be getting enough out of it buying it through me.

My build times aren't really too bad. My least favorite part is definitely cutting the plastic since I don't have the best tools for the job. I think the soldering and heat-shrinking are pretty fun :)
Caeh
Ordered mine yesterday. I already have blue switches but i don't like the tactile bump for osu. Thought this would be a better idea than having to buy another keyboard just for osu. :)
chanhien
May get this after VN new year if the shipping didn't cost half the price of the keypad >_>
Topic Starter
Thnikk
I've gotten some emails and PMs asking about pricing and shipping, so just to clear things up I'd like to say this:

I will only take custom orders through pm/email for things I don't already offer through Etsy. They only take a 3.5% cut (I'm used to ebay's 10% so that's nothing in comparison) and simplify the transaction a lot, so I'd like to use it whenever possible.

Kachemine wrote:

Ordered mine yesterday. I already have blue switches but i don't like the tactile bump for osu. Thought this would be a better idea than having to buy another keyboard just for osu. :)
Thanks for posting! It's nice to know when people are from the forum :D

chanhien wrote:

May get this after VN new year if the shipping didn't cost half the price of the keypad >_>
I wish I could do something about it, but international shipping isn't cheap, even for small and light things.

It's better than express shipping from Japan to the US (a lot heavier but still) :?

SupraKyun
Yea from US to France, added like 7euro just for shipping xD.
Te Amo
If anyone is interested in seeing more gameplay with the keypad, My friend [Rank 33k] came over and i had him play with it for a while :D https://osu.ppy.sh/u/fernan12
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