we want ranked ET beatmaps (osu!mania)

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Tidek

AdamMZ wrote:

You know what's the best solution for this.

Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.

Bobbias wrote:

AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
Hehe

But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.
@Drace I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u? If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.

And one more sentence about that survey, thats why I said its bad because its limited only to overmapped examples and I suggested to make proper one ;)
Drace

Tidek wrote:

I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
[...]
If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
Then I guess you're just going to have to laugh alone in your corner since you can't stop people from mapping and enjoying what they want right? Basically what you're saying is "I've been doing this for a long time so everyone that does things differently than me are wrong." Again, nothing but mere bias and no argument.

Tidek wrote:

Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u?
[...]
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.
This is all your personal opinion. Want to know how to tell argument from opinion apart? I can just say the exact opposite and it still makes sense.
"Overmapping is harder because otherwise all you'd have to do is place notes according to the sounds. This means the map is already done for you!"
Opinions don't get us anywhere in a debate govern by subjectivity. Once more, there is no argument here.

On a side-note, since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.

-

You know, my arguments weren't limited to just overmapping. I said mappers should be allowed to do what ever they want in their maps as long as it still suits the song and makes the map more enjoyable to it's target audience. There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.

Denying such small things is the equivalent of denying the entire respective audience and a world of possibilities simply because you can't see further than the tip of your nose. Is that really your intentions here?
Tidek
Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.

Just answer me 2 simple questions, of course, it can be your opinion:

1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.
Drace

Tidek wrote:

Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.
No, I'm saying that you're one of the few who can't respect other's opinions to the point of laughing at them. And the amount of time you've been mapping does not change the available audiences out there. It doesn't not even amount to how good of a mapper you are. Some people can reach kaiden (aka S'ing overjoys) in 2-3 years and you said you've been playing for 11, give that a thought will you?

Tidek wrote:

1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
My opinion on this, such as yours, is completely irrelevant in this matter. What does matter is the fact that a considerable amount of people do enjoy mapping and playing maps that employ some degree of overmapping. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Tidek wrote:

2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.

Drace wrote:

Since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.

Drace wrote:

There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.
Thanks for not reading my posts. At least I respect you enough to read what you have to say in the matter. Seems the feeling isn't mutual.
Pinecone
I personally don't mind overmapping.

But then again, I only played rhythm games for 1/5th of how much Tidek had played so I guess my opinion doesn't play too much role here.
Entozer
I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Fullerene-

Entozer wrote:

I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Mapping over a song of your choice.
PyaKura
That's because overmapping is seen differently by each of us, hence why we can't agree on a common definition, and thus this discussion is pointless (but pretty fun to read nonetheless).

cf. Starry's post at the start of previous page.
Drace

Entozer wrote:

I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Yeah but really I doubt we'd actually be able to come to definitive description as to when a map becomes "overmapped". Mostly due to how the "over" seems to incite negativity. It's simply a subjective matter, no more no less.

This is why I tried my best to generalize my arguments to cover all the possible outcomes. If you'll allow me to write a slightly edited quote of myself;

If "anything" makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Where "anything" can include any definition of overmapping along with anything else that some might think shouldn't be used. May it be excessive use of a disliked pattern, some delay, speed changes, LN walls or w/e. The list of controversial materials that can be contained in a map goes on and on and doesn't limit itself to overmapping. I like to think of it as a neat general rule that can cover any opinions, biases, styles and mapping technique regardless of the case at hand.

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Tidek

Drace wrote:

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.
Tristan97
So then the next step is to take experienced player's opinions on what maps should qualify for ranking, correct?

If the nature of osu!mania ranking criteria is subjective, it makes sense that we ask the community to actively participate in if they believe certain levels of saturation should be ranked.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/123760

So, allow me to bring up Act 2 Liberation as an example.

Many people claim the CC difficulties to be 'overmapped', with difficulties ranging from 5.34 stars in the 4k CC (by LordRaika, a personal favorite in regards to mappers) all the way to a stunning 11.09 stars in the 8k CC collab between Raika and lZenxl.

I believe these difficulties stand to be technically accurate and mapped with logical patterns. I also personally think that the saturation is slightly higher than it should be in certain places, but with some edits, would argue that each of the CC difficulties are worthy of ranking.

Now, I'm only one person, but why don't we ask the opinion of others to get a better idea of what us (the community) wants?
Aqo
I put maps in my maps so that they can be overmaps

8-)8-)8-)8-)8-)
Tidek
@Tristan97
4K CC from your example obviously isnt overmapped, only that ending can be questionable tho. (and some patterns can be improved and make them a little harder as well).
Drace

Tidek wrote:

Drace wrote:

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.
...I didn't say anything about overmapping in that quote?

Well congratulations on accurately displaying your inability to comprehend the basic concepts of subjectivity. Pretty sure you're just trolling at this point.

@Tristan97

I'd say you have the right idea, but the issue lies with the impossibilities constrained by the current ranking system. We can't really expect a mapper to go through a tedious process of gathering a bunch of player's opinion and then take those opinions up to the BATs and hope to convince them otherwise. Not to mention that said people clearly have contradicting beliefs as to what constitutes to quality. Rince and repeat for every map.

Really the best way would be to hold events where a bunch mappers submit their content restricted by no rules what so ever. And then encourage players to play them. This way even fameless mappers gets to have their maps checked out as much as the famous ones. A simple ladder-type community vote system, maybe screened, will decide which ones gets ranked. This would be a 100% community based decision where none of the biases of the "people in power" (popular modders, popular mappers and BATs) influence the results. It would give all maps from every style a fair chance. And best of all it will involve the most people possible.

It's just a basic idea that's not perfect on it's own, but it's pretty much a step in the direction of how I believe a ranking system would work best to please the largest majority of the playerbase possible. Both mappers and players.

But alas, no changes this drastic would happen, and I honestly have no clue how to go about pleasing this demographic within the current constraints. I'd go as far as saying it might even be impossible. But then I'd just be pessimistic.
Tidek
Sorry Mr Drace for wasting your time again but there is no such rule in ranking system that ET/very hard maps cant be ranked.

But I dont know such problems like this t/117221/start=45 are still happening ("ghost" difficulty wasnt ranked because it was too hard for community, well idk details of this anyway) because it was around 1year ago and some hard maps got ranked in that time.

Probably those are main problems why ET maps are not ranked: (wow, we are getting back to thread title)
1. Mapper doesnt care about ranking because it takes atleast 1 or more moths to get it ranked.
2. Lack of community who can play, map and mod very well.
3. BATs are afraid to rank that kind of maps because they dont know too much about them (based on their rank) or they just cant rank them (if situations like in example above are still happening)
Drace
Where did I say there was a rule against ranking ET maps...? Please stop claiming I said things I haven't, that's the 4th time you did this. If you don't even understand what I'm saying what's the point in replying?

I wouldn't consider the ghost diff an ET map since it's actually pretty tame, and it was denied ranking for being overmapped. (See what we've been saying about subjectivity now? Do you even know what that means?)

As for the rest, I've mentioned something similar a few months ago: t/147552&start=152

Though your 3rd point doesn't really make sense, you seem to mean they're letting their biases govern their verdict on whether a map is good or not which is exactly what I've been saying since the start. Regardless, the issue presented is one that cannot be mended unless some changes are made, and my suggestion mends all 3 of your points. You seem to be agreeing with me despite seemingly trying to argue against me. To be honest I'm quite baffled as to what your goal in all of this might be.
ovnz
I am not a very experienced player, and I've only been playing VSRG some month atm. But that doesn't make my opinion invalid and will never do. What I'm gonna say may result of a lack of experience anyway, I don't really know. So...

Tidek wrote:

1. Mapper doesnt care about ranking because it takes atleast 1 or more moths to get it ranked.
I know some people who took a lot more than one month to get a map ranked. This depends on the mapper, it's not because you are too lazy to get a map that has a lot of difficulty / has a very high bpm or is longer than average / any other reason that every other mapper is like you and does not have the courage to do it. You are not the only guy in the universe, everybody is different. Do you even understand the concept of not being the center of the universe?

Tidek wrote:

2. Lack of community who can play, map and mod very well.
Sooo do you mean that nobody is able to get better at playing, mapping or modding? Would it take too long to improve that much? So maybe in one year or so, the community will be able to do all of them better, so ET maps will be able to get ranked? That's just stupid. Of course there are people who can map or mod very well anyway. I suggest you to read my first paragraph and add the notions of playing and modding to mapping, or any other thing, related or not to the game. You will learn a lot about humanity.

Tidek wrote:

3. BATs are afraid to rank that kind of maps because they dont know too much about them (based on their rank) or they just cant rank them (if situations like in example above are still happening)
1. If your point is valid, then it should apply to other game modes as well. I'm gonna take an example with a mainstream and hard map so it makes more sense to you.
http://0vn.eu/dpz6h.jpg Here's the big black (don't blame me please)
http://0vn.eu/pxo1h.jpg So he's the guy who approved it.
http://0vn.eu/2v8a6.jpg Haha lol noob he knows nothing about mapping (based on his rank), he shouldn't have even been able to approve this map.
So that's how you're thinking. Now, you should learn that a good mapper / modder (BAT included) does not necessary have a good rank because most of the time he will just not focus on playing. And even if he is, it means nothing because mapping skills or modding skills are different from playing skills.

And anyway, why are you complaining about ET maps? If you don't like them, then just don't play them and do not rank on them. But do not forbid everyone to rank on them. I don't even understand why does the fact that maps that you can't play/don't like get ranked seriously.

Oh and by the way. I don't believe that overmapping is a mapping style. But should that prevent overmapped maps to get ranked? Absolutely not.
AdamMZ
I actually agree with Tidek. We don't get many ET beatmaps maybe because the mapper doesn't care about getting ranked. If he/she does, he would improve it. Or maybe because lack of community. (I don't see you guys mapping) Also, you need to know that he discussed with other BATs and during that time there was no QATs. (Not sure if QATs could make this a different situation) So... both Tidek and your statement is invalid?
Tidek
@Ovnize

Ad.1 I have already 2 ranked maps and it takes me around 3month each to rank them. The most annoying point in ranking process is finding a free BATs, atm in osu!mania we have only few BATs and most of them are busy or inactive. I dont see a single motivation to rank them unless you are really patient like me.

Ad. 2 Its because most of ppl dont know how to mod that kind of maps and they are avoiding them. Most of ppl are only very good players or very good modders/mappers, there is very low amount of ppl who have skill to play that kind of maps and know structures of them (modding).

Ad. 3 Big black example is pretty bad because it was ranked like 2 or more year ago, most of standard players are saying that that kind of map will never be ranked these days. osu!standard is a completely different story because its a new rhythm game for everyone. Games like osu!mania are played like since 1999 year

Rest of your post, I never said that I dont want ET maps and I was never complaining abouth them (unless its a really annoying overmap through whole song). And I can easily play and pass most of that kind of maps.
Kamikaze
@AdamMZ
Unrank mappers don't care about ranking because either they make stuff purerly for fun and don't even bother with looking for pepole to mod it or just give up seeing how hard it is to get BAT to check your map. Second case almost happened to me, but fortunately I found someone willing to help. Searching for mods is real pain in the ass unless you have some friends who mod stuff, especially with 3/4 of queues going: "Lenght under 3 min" or even "Lenght 1:30 or lower". Try to rank a map yourself before posting opinions.

AdamMZ wrote:

(I don't see you guys mapping)
I feel offended.

@Tidek

Tidek wrote:

Ad. 2 Its because most of ppl dont know how to mod that kind of maps and they are avoiding them. Most of ppl are only very good players or very good modders/mappers, there is very low amount of ppl who have skill to play that kind of maps and know structures of them (modding).
More like all the queues going TEEVEE SAIZU ONLI heh

Tidek wrote:

I was never complaining abouth them

heh^2

heh^3

heh^4
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