ExUsagi wrote:
with worst quality & un-play-ability
"Quality" is extremely subjective. Keep that in mind.Drace wrote:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition that did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
General opinion of overmapping? That survey is bad because ppl had no choose. It was just "you want ET maps? yes or no" doesnt matter whether its overmapped or not. I voted yes because I want ET maps ranked as well, but not mapped in that way.Drace wrote:
A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572
Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated" . So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.
And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.
The thing is, he's right, and it's getting annoying. There has not been a single logical argument against our position. Every voice of opposition we've heard has been a statement of personal opinion with no logical explanation for why our position might be incorrect.Tristan97 wrote:
And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.
AdamMZ wrote:
You know what's the best solution for this.
Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.
HeheBobbias wrote:
AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.@Drace I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
Then I guess you're just going to have to laugh alone in your corner since you can't stop people from mapping and enjoying what they want right? Basically what you're saying is "I've been doing this for a long time so everyone that does things differently than me are wrong." Again, nothing but mere bias and no argument.Tidek wrote:
I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
[...]
If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
This is all your personal opinion. Want to know how to tell argument from opinion apart? I can just say the exact opposite and it still makes sense.Tidek wrote:
Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u?
[...]
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.
No, I'm saying that you're one of the few who can't respect other's opinions to the point of laughing at them. And the amount of time you've been mapping does not change the available audiences out there. It doesn't not even amount to how good of a mapper you are. Some people can reach kaiden (aka S'ing overjoys) in 2-3 years and you said you've been playing for 11, give that a thought will you?Tidek wrote:
Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.
My opinion on this, such as yours, is completely irrelevant in this matter. What does matter is the fact that a considerable amount of people do enjoy mapping and playing maps that employ some degree of overmapping. That's a fact, not an opinion.Tidek wrote:
1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
Tidek wrote:
2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.
Drace wrote:
Since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.
Thanks for not reading my posts. At least I respect you enough to read what you have to say in the matter. Seems the feeling isn't mutual.Drace wrote:
There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.
Mapping over a song of your choice.Entozer wrote:
I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Yeah but really I doubt we'd actually be able to come to definitive description as to when a map becomes "overmapped". Mostly due to how the "over" seems to incite negativity. It's simply a subjective matter, no more no less.Entozer wrote:
I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
If "anything" makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".Where "anything" can include any definition of overmapping along with anything else that some might think shouldn't be used. May it be excessive use of a disliked pattern, some delay, speed changes, LN walls or w/e. The list of controversial materials that can be contained in a map goes on and on and doesn't limit itself to overmapping. I like to think of it as a neat general rule that can cover any opinions, biases, styles and mapping technique regardless of the case at hand.
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.Drace wrote:
My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
...I didn't say anything about overmapping in that quote?Tidek wrote:
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.Drace wrote:
My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
I know some people who took a lot more than one month to get a map ranked. This depends on the mapper, it's not because you are too lazy to get a map that has a lot of difficulty / has a very high bpm or is longer than average / any other reason that every other mapper is like you and does not have the courage to do it. You are not the only guy in the universe, everybody is different. Do you even understand the concept of not being the center of the universe?Tidek wrote:
1. Mapper doesnt care about ranking because it takes atleast 1 or more moths to get it ranked.
Sooo do you mean that nobody is able to get better at playing, mapping or modding? Would it take too long to improve that much? So maybe in one year or so, the community will be able to do all of them better, so ET maps will be able to get ranked? That's just stupid. Of course there are people who can map or mod very well anyway. I suggest you to read my first paragraph and add the notions of playing and modding to mapping, or any other thing, related or not to the game. You will learn a lot about humanity.Tidek wrote:
2. Lack of community who can play, map and mod very well.
1. If your point is valid, then it should apply to other game modes as well. I'm gonna take an example with a mainstream and hard map so it makes more sense to you.Tidek wrote:
3. BATs are afraid to rank that kind of maps because they dont know too much about them (based on their rank) or they just cant rank them (if situations like in example above are still happening)
I feel offended.AdamMZ wrote:
(I don't see you guys mapping)
More like all the queues going TEEVEE SAIZU ONLI hehTidek wrote:
Ad. 2 Its because most of ppl dont know how to mod that kind of maps and they are avoiding them. Most of ppl are only very good players or very good modders/mappers, there is very low amount of ppl who have skill to play that kind of maps and know structures of them (modding).
Tidek wrote:
I was never complaining abouth them
I'm sowwy. :c-Kamikaze- wrote:
I feel offended.AdamMZ wrote:
(I don't see you guys mapping)
I agree with this.Envisionise wrote:
Mapping is a form of art, a platform for creativity. Therefore, 'overmapping' doesn't exist in a place like here. Feeling that a chart is overmapped is your personal response to someone elses art. Feeling that a chart is overmapped is perfectly fine, but no map is actually overmapped. It does not mean that the work is invalid and is low in quality.
When you play someone's chart, you are playing the mapper's interpretation of the song. You are living and breathing their art. If you feel that chart is overmapped, that is your personal opinion of the chart. It does not mean that it's wrong, there is no such thing as wrong in art.
Someone else could play that chart and believe that it's a fun, high quality map.
I believe ranked maps are maps that are fun to play and are of at least decent quality. If a map targeted for ET players satisfies that criteria, why can't it be ranked? The chart is simply targeting a different audience, though a smaller one. Whether 99% of the community cannot appreciate the map, that 1% still finds the map fun and that map should satisfy the criteria of being ranked. Personally, I find MANY ranked maps aren't fun for me. Am i going out to bitch about it? Nope. I can appreciate the fact that others find it fun and I'm totally fine with that.
I'm not sure why ET maps aren't ranked. If the BAT's find charts low in quality or 'overmapped', they should listen to the players whom the map was targeted at. The experience range of the BATs isn't wide enough to speak for the entire community. In such a community driven game, I think this is a huge fundamental flaw that needs to be addressed.
plz rank et maps plz