we want ranked ET beatmaps (osu!mania)

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Tristan97
And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.

On that note, shouldn't we make a 'community check' for maps to keep things driven by us.

Have people vote if they think a difficulty for a map is too dense with a poll or something and then have that over-rule BAT (not QAT, but BAT) decision.

That way we can keep 'subjective matters' within favor of the people. Then leave it to the BAT's decision if it's too close or something.

My point being, it could be a lot easier to rank maps like 'Chaos Maid' if the beatmap thread had a poll that ET players could vote on that says 'we deem/want this map rankable/ranked.'
AdamMZ
You know what's the best solution for this.

Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.
Bobbias

Tristan97 wrote:

And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.
The thing is, he's right, and it's getting annoying. There has not been a single logical argument against our position. Every voice of opposition we've heard has been a statement of personal opinion with no logical explanation for why our position might be incorrect.

AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
AdamMZ
You know, if these guys wants some ET maps, they should just make them for themselves.
FaL3C_ChoBo
Tidek

AdamMZ wrote:

You know what's the best solution for this.

Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.

Bobbias wrote:

AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
Hehe

But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.
@Drace I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u? If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.

And one more sentence about that survey, thats why I said its bad because its limited only to overmapped examples and I suggested to make proper one ;)
Drace

Tidek wrote:

I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
[...]
If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
Then I guess you're just going to have to laugh alone in your corner since you can't stop people from mapping and enjoying what they want right? Basically what you're saying is "I've been doing this for a long time so everyone that does things differently than me are wrong." Again, nothing but mere bias and no argument.

Tidek wrote:

Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u?
[...]
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.
This is all your personal opinion. Want to know how to tell argument from opinion apart? I can just say the exact opposite and it still makes sense.
"Overmapping is harder because otherwise all you'd have to do is place notes according to the sounds. This means the map is already done for you!"
Opinions don't get us anywhere in a debate govern by subjectivity. Once more, there is no argument here.

On a side-note, since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.

-

You know, my arguments weren't limited to just overmapping. I said mappers should be allowed to do what ever they want in their maps as long as it still suits the song and makes the map more enjoyable to it's target audience. There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.

Denying such small things is the equivalent of denying the entire respective audience and a world of possibilities simply because you can't see further than the tip of your nose. Is that really your intentions here?
Tidek
Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.

Just answer me 2 simple questions, of course, it can be your opinion:

1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.
Drace

Tidek wrote:

Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.
No, I'm saying that you're one of the few who can't respect other's opinions to the point of laughing at them. And the amount of time you've been mapping does not change the available audiences out there. It doesn't not even amount to how good of a mapper you are. Some people can reach kaiden (aka S'ing overjoys) in 2-3 years and you said you've been playing for 11, give that a thought will you?

Tidek wrote:

1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
My opinion on this, such as yours, is completely irrelevant in this matter. What does matter is the fact that a considerable amount of people do enjoy mapping and playing maps that employ some degree of overmapping. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Tidek wrote:

2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.

Drace wrote:

Since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.

Drace wrote:

There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.
Thanks for not reading my posts. At least I respect you enough to read what you have to say in the matter. Seems the feeling isn't mutual.
Pinecone
I personally don't mind overmapping.

But then again, I only played rhythm games for 1/5th of how much Tidek had played so I guess my opinion doesn't play too much role here.
Entozer
I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Fullerene-

Entozer wrote:

I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Mapping over a song of your choice.
PyaKura
That's because overmapping is seen differently by each of us, hence why we can't agree on a common definition, and thus this discussion is pointless (but pretty fun to read nonetheless).

cf. Starry's post at the start of previous page.
Drace

Entozer wrote:

I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Yeah but really I doubt we'd actually be able to come to definitive description as to when a map becomes "overmapped". Mostly due to how the "over" seems to incite negativity. It's simply a subjective matter, no more no less.

This is why I tried my best to generalize my arguments to cover all the possible outcomes. If you'll allow me to write a slightly edited quote of myself;

If "anything" makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Where "anything" can include any definition of overmapping along with anything else that some might think shouldn't be used. May it be excessive use of a disliked pattern, some delay, speed changes, LN walls or w/e. The list of controversial materials that can be contained in a map goes on and on and doesn't limit itself to overmapping. I like to think of it as a neat general rule that can cover any opinions, biases, styles and mapping technique regardless of the case at hand.

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Tidek

Drace wrote:

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.
Tristan97
So then the next step is to take experienced player's opinions on what maps should qualify for ranking, correct?

If the nature of osu!mania ranking criteria is subjective, it makes sense that we ask the community to actively participate in if they believe certain levels of saturation should be ranked.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/123760

So, allow me to bring up Act 2 Liberation as an example.

Many people claim the CC difficulties to be 'overmapped', with difficulties ranging from 5.34 stars in the 4k CC (by LordRaika, a personal favorite in regards to mappers) all the way to a stunning 11.09 stars in the 8k CC collab between Raika and lZenxl.

I believe these difficulties stand to be technically accurate and mapped with logical patterns. I also personally think that the saturation is slightly higher than it should be in certain places, but with some edits, would argue that each of the CC difficulties are worthy of ranking.

Now, I'm only one person, but why don't we ask the opinion of others to get a better idea of what us (the community) wants?
Aqo
I put maps in my maps so that they can be overmaps

8-)8-)8-)8-)8-)
Tidek
@Tristan97
4K CC from your example obviously isnt overmapped, only that ending can be questionable tho. (and some patterns can be improved and make them a little harder as well).
Drace

Tidek wrote:

Drace wrote:

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.
...I didn't say anything about overmapping in that quote?

Well congratulations on accurately displaying your inability to comprehend the basic concepts of subjectivity. Pretty sure you're just trolling at this point.


@Tristan97

I'd say you have the right idea, but the issue lies with the impossibilities constrained by the current ranking system. We can't really expect a mapper to go through a tedious process of gathering a bunch of player's opinion and then take those opinions up to the BATs and hope to convince them otherwise. Not to mention that said people clearly have contradicting beliefs as to what constitutes to quality. Rince and repeat for every map.

Really the best way would be to hold events where a bunch mappers submit their content restricted by no rules what so ever. And then encourage players to play them. This way even fameless mappers gets to have their maps checked out as much as the famous ones. A simple ladder-type community vote system, maybe screened, will decide which ones gets ranked. This would be a 100% community based decision where none of the biases of the "people in power" (popular modders, popular mappers and BATs) influence the results. It would give all maps from every style a fair chance. And best of all it will involve the most people possible.

It's just a basic idea that's not perfect on it's own, but it's pretty much a step in the direction of how I believe a ranking system would work best to please the largest majority of the playerbase possible. Both mappers and players.

But alas, no changes this drastic would happen, and I honestly have no clue how to go about pleasing this demographic within the current constraints. I'd go as far as saying it might even be impossible. But then I'd just be pessimistic.
Tidek
Sorry Mr Drace for wasting your time again but there is no such rule in ranking system that ET/very hard maps cant be ranked.

But I dont know such problems like this t/117221/start=45 are still happening ("ghost" difficulty wasnt ranked because it was too hard for community, well idk details of this anyway) because it was around 1year ago and some hard maps got ranked in that time.

Probably those are main problems why ET maps are not ranked: (wow, we are getting back to thread title)
1. Mapper doesnt care about ranking because it takes atleast 1 or more moths to get it ranked.
2. Lack of community who can play, map and mod very well.
3. BATs are afraid to rank that kind of maps because they dont know too much about them (based on their rank) or they just cant rank them (if situations like in example above are still happening)
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