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posted
No, as per majority rules, "we" is the correct word to use.

A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572

Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated" ;). So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the majority of the community doesn't. It's not like you have to play them if they get ranked right? Everyone's happy.

Oh and also:

ExUsagi wrote:

with worst quality & un-play-ability

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition that did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
"Quality" is extremely subjective. Keep that in mind.
posted
Hehe

I know I shouldnt post here anymore, but damn me. I must

Drace wrote:

A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572

Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated" ;). So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.
General opinion of overmapping? That survey is bad because ppl had no choose. It was just "you want ET maps? yes or no" doesnt matter whether its overmapped or not. I voted yes because I want ET maps ranked as well, but not mapped in that way.
Better survey should look like that:
Should ET maps be allowed for ranking?

1. Yes, overmapped and "normal mapped" ones
2. Yes, but not overmapped ones
3. No

Im sure that results will be A LOT different ;)

Not saying that ET maps are not allowed to rank anyway lol
posted
"Overmapping" is so subjective it can't even be considered in an argument unless specified. This conversation it pointless, honestly, simply because it won't get anywhere. (Remember what happened last thread?)
posted
For starters I said "you could consider", not "it is". Not only does it mean that the statement was hypothetical, it also means it was only but a tangent to the main argument.

And second of all the poll CLEARLY says, "ET maps like Unlimited spark, etc etc". If you didn't cast your vote correctly it's your own problem for not understanding basic English.

Everything I said so far is still non-disputed, and you along with all the others keep failing to make any proper arguments. Instead you're either claiming subjective matters or your own preferences as facts, or trying to nit-pick the minor elements in the opposing arguments. All in the hopes of achieving what? You think you managed to convince everyone we're wrong by doing so? Please, this is ridiculous.

And to make matters worst I'm positive you don't even know what we're talking about with overmapping. You're acting like it's bane of the devil worst possible shit that you can possibly do, and yet they've been everywhere and accepted since the days of canmusic. Even LR2 has ranked overmaps. There's no imaginary rhythms, they still follow the song perfectly fine, they just "saturate" the patterns. And like Tear said (oh yes you presented a point to help my arguments) you can't tell what's what in the upper levels anyways. So whats more important, how enjoyable the map is to play or if every note can be isolated to a specific sound after extensive study? I'm voting for the prior.

And here's the catch, it's not easy at all to implement overmapping in a way to make the map more enjoyable. Most the time the patterns will feel foreign and out of place. But it's very possible and some people do it quite well. This also goes without saying that many are also complete shit.

Like Starry- (amoungst many others) said, the matter is subjective. You'll need proper arguments against the points that's been presented in the thread in order for anything you say to be valid. The only thing you manage to accomplish by simply saying "overmapping is shit because I said so" is giving leverage to the opposite side of the argument, especially when they properly explained their own points.

And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
posted
Well, at this moment we're getting NO ranked maps or 1 max per week, but that's another story...
posted
And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.

On that note, shouldn't we make a 'community check' for maps to keep things driven by us.

Have people vote if they think a difficulty for a map is too dense with a poll or something and then have that over-rule BAT (not QAT, but BAT) decision.

That way we can keep 'subjective matters' within favor of the people. Then leave it to the BAT's decision if it's too close or something.

My point being, it could be a lot easier to rank maps like 'Chaos Maid' if the beatmap thread had a poll that ET players could vote on that says 'we deem/want this map rankable/ranked.'
posted
You know what's the best solution for this.

Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.
posted

Tristan97 wrote:

And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.
The thing is, he's right, and it's getting annoying. There has not been a single logical argument against our position. Every voice of opposition we've heard has been a statement of personal opinion with no logical explanation for why our position might be incorrect.

AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
posted
You know, if these guys wants some ET maps, they should just make them for themselves.
posted
posted

AdamMZ wrote:

You know what's the best solution for this.

Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.

Bobbias wrote:

AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
Hehe

But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.
@Drace I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u? If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.

And one more sentence about that survey, thats why I said its bad because its limited only to overmapped examples and I suggested to make proper one ;)
posted

Tidek wrote:

I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
[...]
If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
Then I guess you're just going to have to laugh alone in your corner since you can't stop people from mapping and enjoying what they want right? Basically what you're saying is "I've been doing this for a long time so everyone that does things differently than me are wrong." Again, nothing but mere bias and no argument.

Tidek wrote:

Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u?
[...]
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.
This is all your personal opinion. Want to know how to tell argument from opinion apart? I can just say the exact opposite and it still makes sense.
"Overmapping is harder because otherwise all you'd have to do is place notes according to the sounds. This means the map is already done for you!"
Opinions don't get us anywhere in a debate govern by subjectivity. Once more, there is no argument here.

On a side-note, since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.

-

You know, my arguments weren't limited to just overmapping. I said mappers should be allowed to do what ever they want in their maps as long as it still suits the song and makes the map more enjoyable to it's target audience. There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.

Denying such small things is the equivalent of denying the entire respective audience and a world of possibilities simply because you can't see further than the tip of your nose. Is that really your intentions here?
posted
Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.

Just answer me 2 simple questions, of course, it can be your opinion:

1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.
posted

Tidek wrote:

Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.
No, I'm saying that you're one of the few who can't respect other's opinions to the point of laughing at them. And the amount of time you've been mapping does not change the available audiences out there. It doesn't not even amount to how good of a mapper you are. Some people can reach kaiden (aka S'ing overjoys) in 2-3 years and you said you've been playing for 11, give that a thought will you?

Tidek wrote:

1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
My opinion on this, such as yours, is completely irrelevant in this matter. What does matter is the fact that a considerable amount of people do enjoy mapping and playing maps that employ some degree of overmapping. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Tidek wrote:

2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.

Drace wrote:

Since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.

Drace wrote:

There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.
Thanks for not reading my posts. At least I respect you enough to read what you have to say in the matter. Seems the feeling isn't mutual.
posted
I personally don't mind overmapping.

But then again, I only played rhythm games for 1/5th of how much Tidek had played so I guess my opinion doesn't play too much role here.
posted
I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
posted

Entozer wrote:

I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Mapping over a song of your choice.
posted
That's because overmapping is seen differently by each of us, hence why we can't agree on a common definition, and thus this discussion is pointless (but pretty fun to read nonetheless).

cf. Starry's post at the start of previous page.
posted

Entozer wrote:

I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Yeah but really I doubt we'd actually be able to come to definitive description as to when a map becomes "overmapped". Mostly due to how the "over" seems to incite negativity. It's simply a subjective matter, no more no less.

This is why I tried my best to generalize my arguments to cover all the possible outcomes. If you'll allow me to write a slightly edited quote of myself;

If "anything" makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Where "anything" can include any definition of overmapping along with anything else that some might think shouldn't be used. May it be excessive use of a disliked pattern, some delay, speed changes, LN walls or w/e. The list of controversial materials that can be contained in a map goes on and on and doesn't limit itself to overmapping. I like to think of it as a neat general rule that can cover any opinions, biases, styles and mapping technique regardless of the case at hand.

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
posted

Drace wrote:

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.
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