we want ranked ET beatmaps (osu!mania)

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Tidek

Drace wrote:

Tidek wrote:

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.

You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?

I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.

EDIT: Forgot about one thing, the only exception I respect is keysounded map.
Drace
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?

I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me

lol nice effort I guess

There's literally nothing I can reply to that since there's no argument. You can't just state something isn't a style purely because you feel like it and not say why. People can make them, people play them, people can enjoy them. Yes it can be style pure and simple, and you don't like it. And it's completely acceptable.

But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.

Ever heard of a delay chart? Doubt it.

And worst of all you avoided the main point of my reply to you. Should of done the same to you but meh.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Tidek
Well, that discussion is going to nowhere, probably my last post here.

But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.
Overmapping isnt a 100% creation, its a easy way to avoid lack of ideas for the current music. It can be less or more creative, but still the most creative is to make the same fun and enjoyable map without putting any ghost notes and that is a thing I respect the most.

Also finally you got a response for this:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Drace
And like I said, that's YOUR opinion. The fact of the matter here is there's a considerable amount of people in this playerbase that share the opposite opinion. Can you not think about anyone other than yourself? There is no "right" or "wrong" in a dilemma governed by subjectivity. The best you can do is accommodate to satisfy the most people.

What exactly would be wrong to rank a few maps styled a way you don't like for the sake of satisfying a larger audience? You're giving off an extremely closed-minded vibe.

And no you didn't respond to that quote at all ^^ Goes to show you don't even understand the core of my arguments :/
Tidek
Its funny, how one sentece where I said that I hate overmaps could make that stupid conservation.

But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.

Have fun with discussion in that pointless topic, administration probably wont even look at it, cya.
Tristan97
Okay, I personally agree with the idea that multiple styles should be rankable in osu!mania as a community driven game. I find it appropriate to mod maps as a way for the community to suggest more refined beatmaps, but it's also important to have diversity in a game such as this one.

Take Hesitation Snow for example. It has both an o2jam styled and a BMS styled insane difficulty. While not ET level, they represent how we can take these styles and rank them accordingly. Also, maps like Koi Saku Mirai have a more personal style that ranks as well, giving people hope in expressing their individuality.

I believe that mapping is a form of art, both technically demanding and expressive.

That being said, what is the limit for overmapping if we should be accepting of these styles? When do o2jam styled LNs become unrankable? Sister's Noise Level 42 got ranked.

When does BMS 'bullshit mania spam' become too much? Most people agree that IN2k6 should not have gotten ranked with the standards we have today for various reasons. But what's the limit?

Is it situation? Is it simply subjective?

What's the best way to improve this system?
Bobbias
Tristan, the main reason most people think in2k6 shouldn't have been ranked is because the lunatic is a slightly edited version of an existing BMS chart, and because the patterns are not particularly good. The difficulty doesn't really have anything to do with it. We have rules against ranking conversions (unless you have permission from the creator), and in2k6 is just too close to the original chart. Every other diff is basically just a nerfed version of the lunatic with no originality either.

Tidek, you agreed with me and then outright said the exact opposite, shitting on overmapped stuff. I'll quote myself here:

Bobbias wrote:

Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
Tristan97

Bobbias wrote:

Tristan, the main reason most people think in2k6 shouldn't have been ranked is because the lunatic is a slightly edited version of an existing BMS chart, and because the patterns are not particularly good. The difficulty doesn't really have anything to do with it. We have rules against ranking conversions (unless you have permission from the creator), and in2k6 is just too close to the original chart. Every other diff is basically just a nerfed version of the lunatic with no originality either..
[/quote]


Oh, I was aware of that. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it. Yeah it's a pain that our highest pp awarding map isn't a legitimate creation of the community.
Prim
Cuppp
My peppy bodypillow whispers to me every night that this won't happen ever








ever
AdamMZ
We need Puppetz (from Frets on Fire) to make ET songs.

@Tidek How many times do we have to tell you. OPINIONS ARE (MOST OF THE TIME) ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. Remember that for the rest of your internet life.
Arzenvald
just wandering forum for awhile and mfw saw this.. owell..

don't mention this 'we', because i personally don't want a ranked ET beatmaps with worst quality & un-play-ability.. besides, what kind of ET map should be ranked? over 7 stars is already too much for me (because it's so DAMN hard to make a quality map over 6 stars).. and then, how many people who able to pass ET maps? and is there any mappers who want to map such maps? also is there any modders who want to mod such overloaded maps? and lastly, will BAT / QAT approves ET maps with nowadays system ranking?

well i can't even answer them, and i could say top #200 will need an 'unofficially' fun map with ET difficulty..
it could be yes or not that this community needs an ET ranked map.. but one thing in my thought.. overmapping is not how to make ET maps, and it wont be easy to rank ET map..
Drace
No, as per majority rules, "we" is the correct word to use.

A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572

Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated" ;). So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the majority of the community doesn't. It's not like you have to play them if they get ranked right? Everyone's happy.

Oh and also:

ExUsagi wrote:

with worst quality & un-play-ability

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition that did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
"Quality" is extremely subjective. Keep that in mind.
Tidek
Hehe

I know I shouldnt post here anymore, but damn me. I must

Drace wrote:

A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572

Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated" ;). So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.
General opinion of overmapping? That survey is bad because ppl had no choose. It was just "you want ET maps? yes or no" doesnt matter whether its overmapped or not. I voted yes because I want ET maps ranked as well, but not mapped in that way.
Better survey should look like that:
Should ET maps be allowed for ranking?

1. Yes, overmapped and "normal mapped" ones
2. Yes, but not overmapped ones
3. No

Im sure that results will be A LOT different ;)

Not saying that ET maps are not allowed to rank anyway lol
Starry-
"Overmapping" is so subjective it can't even be considered in an argument unless specified. This conversation it pointless, honestly, simply because it won't get anywhere. (Remember what happened last thread?)
Drace
For starters I said "you could consider", not "it is". Not only does it mean that the statement was hypothetical, it also means it was only but a tangent to the main argument.

And second of all the poll CLEARLY says, "ET maps like Unlimited spark, etc etc". If you didn't cast your vote correctly it's your own problem for not understanding basic English.

Everything I said so far is still non-disputed, and you along with all the others keep failing to make any proper arguments. Instead you're either claiming subjective matters or your own preferences as facts, or trying to nit-pick the minor elements in the opposing arguments. All in the hopes of achieving what? You think you managed to convince everyone we're wrong by doing so? Please, this is ridiculous.

And to make matters worst I'm positive you don't even know what we're talking about with overmapping. You're acting like it's bane of the devil worst possible shit that you can possibly do, and yet they've been everywhere and accepted since the days of canmusic. Even LR2 has ranked overmaps. There's no imaginary rhythms, they still follow the song perfectly fine, they just "saturate" the patterns. And like Tear said (oh yes you presented a point to help my arguments) you can't tell what's what in the upper levels anyways. So whats more important, how enjoyable the map is to play or if every note can be isolated to a specific sound after extensive study? I'm voting for the prior.

And here's the catch, it's not easy at all to implement overmapping in a way to make the map more enjoyable. Most the time the patterns will feel foreign and out of place. But it's very possible and some people do it quite well. This also goes without saying that many are also complete shit.

Like Starry- (amoungst many others) said, the matter is subjective. You'll need proper arguments against the points that's been presented in the thread in order for anything you say to be valid. The only thing you manage to accomplish by simply saying "overmapping is shit because I said so" is giving leverage to the opposite side of the argument, especially when they properly explained their own points.

And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Kamikaze
Well, at this moment we're getting NO ranked maps or 1 max per week, but that's another story...
Tristan97
And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.

On that note, shouldn't we make a 'community check' for maps to keep things driven by us.

Have people vote if they think a difficulty for a map is too dense with a poll or something and then have that over-rule BAT (not QAT, but BAT) decision.

That way we can keep 'subjective matters' within favor of the people. Then leave it to the BAT's decision if it's too close or something.

My point being, it could be a lot easier to rank maps like 'Chaos Maid' if the beatmap thread had a poll that ET players could vote on that says 'we deem/want this map rankable/ranked.'
AdamMZ
You know what's the best solution for this.

Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.
Bobbias

Tristan97 wrote:

And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.
The thing is, he's right, and it's getting annoying. There has not been a single logical argument against our position. Every voice of opposition we've heard has been a statement of personal opinion with no logical explanation for why our position might be incorrect.

AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
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