we want ranked ET beatmaps (osu!mania)

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Tristan97
Okay, let me ask this since I feel like it will get a sophisticated response:

Agreeing to the subjectivity of 'quality' of mapping based on groups or divisions of the VSRG masses, what is the best way to map ExTra for mania?

I personally find lZenxl's style to be a capable way of mapping that can lead to more difficult ranked beatmaps, especially since PROGUY deemed his Diatonicism difficulty for Achromat rankable (with some modding).

We can rank challenging beatmaps, and often the border of 'overmapping' can be pushed to an extent with the target group in mind. Not ridiculously, or M.A.M.A.'s Extra difficulty would be harder than IN2k6 right now.

But what constitutes as an appropriate rankable ExTra beatmap?

Entozer is very popular in the osu!mania community and he maps very high difficulty maps such as Thantos or Music Revolver, etc.

So should we be pushing to rank maps with styles similar to Entozer?

What exactly makes ET osu!mania ranked maps osu!mania styled anyway? Intersect Thunderbolt Remix and AiAe and over 5.5+ star maps are what we're looking at.

Personally, I've noticed a lot more recently as I've reached new heights of performance that I can appreciate the patterns in the maps I'm playing much more. Bangin' Burst Level 16 being a good example. So I believe the ET mania players have the best say in what we should be ranking at that difficulty, since after all, this is a community driven game.

I'd like to get challenging maps ranked myself (see Xross Infection: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/248006)

But I'm not sure if the patterns I'm creating are 'appropriate' or if I'll get shot down by BATs considering this level is too much for me to pass.

Furthermore, it's inevitable that ranking more of these significantly challenging maps (6+ stars) will get more ET players to play osu!mania more actively, so how should we consider that in our criterion?
Bobbias
The best way to map mania is whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned osu!mania's identity should not be some narrow minded overly specific style like most other games have (o2jam focuses on LNs, BMS mostly has few or no LNs, etc.). Osu!Mania should accept every style, so that players from every game can find maps they enjoy. We shouldn't try to come up with a single characteristic style that every ranked map should conform to. Let the mappers map what they want.

If you're going to ask about Entozer stuff, this is pretty relevant: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/235994 8.46 stars according to the page. Entozer says he can't even pass it himself thanks to the HP drain. Or how about https://osu.ppy.sh/s/178027 8.80 stars on the EX diff. Or https://osu.ppy.sh/s/156500 at 10.80. If these all had proper difficulty spreads, are these considered acceptable? I can't pass any of these, but I think they're all good maps in terms of the patterns.
Tidek

Bobbias wrote:

The best way to map mania is whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned osu!mania's identity should not be some narrow minded overly specific style like most other games have (o2jam focuses on LNs, BMS mostly has few or no LNs, etc.). Osu!Mania should accept every style, so that players from every game can find maps they enjoy. We shouldn't try to come up with a single characteristic style that every ranked map should conform to. Let the mappers map what they want.
This and close this topic lol.

The only thing I hate from complainers is that they think that BATs wont allow to rank "ET maps". Find ma a rule in ranking criteria where its saying that you cant rank harder maps. The main reasons why "ET maps" are not ranked is that quality of those maps are sh it OR creator doesnt care about ranking his map, problem solved.

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
Drace

Tidek wrote:

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.

You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?

Tristan97 wrote:

Okay, let me ask this since I feel like it will get a sophisticated response:

[...]
Honestly there simply isn't way to accomplish what the people in this thread are asking for with the current ranking system. Everything is wrong with it. It's a system that encourages biases and gives power to the wrong people. It gives attention to the wrong maps and the system encourages pointless mods which has destroyed more maps than it helped.

A good system shouldn't coast of the biases of the BATs and modders. They should actually have no say at all in the matter, the community can make their own decisions.
Tidek

Drace wrote:

Tidek wrote:

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.

You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?

I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.

EDIT: Forgot about one thing, the only exception I respect is keysounded map.
Drace
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?

I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me

lol nice effort I guess

There's literally nothing I can reply to that since there's no argument. You can't just state something isn't a style purely because you feel like it and not say why. People can make them, people play them, people can enjoy them. Yes it can be style pure and simple, and you don't like it. And it's completely acceptable.

But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.

Ever heard of a delay chart? Doubt it.

And worst of all you avoided the main point of my reply to you. Should of done the same to you but meh.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Tidek
Well, that discussion is going to nowhere, probably my last post here.

But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.
Overmapping isnt a 100% creation, its a easy way to avoid lack of ideas for the current music. It can be less or more creative, but still the most creative is to make the same fun and enjoyable map without putting any ghost notes and that is a thing I respect the most.

Also finally you got a response for this:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Drace
And like I said, that's YOUR opinion. The fact of the matter here is there's a considerable amount of people in this playerbase that share the opposite opinion. Can you not think about anyone other than yourself? There is no "right" or "wrong" in a dilemma governed by subjectivity. The best you can do is accommodate to satisfy the most people.

What exactly would be wrong to rank a few maps styled a way you don't like for the sake of satisfying a larger audience? You're giving off an extremely closed-minded vibe.

And no you didn't respond to that quote at all ^^ Goes to show you don't even understand the core of my arguments :/
Tidek
Its funny, how one sentece where I said that I hate overmaps could make that stupid conservation.

But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.

Have fun with discussion in that pointless topic, administration probably wont even look at it, cya.
Tristan97
Okay, I personally agree with the idea that multiple styles should be rankable in osu!mania as a community driven game. I find it appropriate to mod maps as a way for the community to suggest more refined beatmaps, but it's also important to have diversity in a game such as this one.

Take Hesitation Snow for example. It has both an o2jam styled and a BMS styled insane difficulty. While not ET level, they represent how we can take these styles and rank them accordingly. Also, maps like Koi Saku Mirai have a more personal style that ranks as well, giving people hope in expressing their individuality.

I believe that mapping is a form of art, both technically demanding and expressive.

That being said, what is the limit for overmapping if we should be accepting of these styles? When do o2jam styled LNs become unrankable? Sister's Noise Level 42 got ranked.

When does BMS 'bullshit mania spam' become too much? Most people agree that IN2k6 should not have gotten ranked with the standards we have today for various reasons. But what's the limit?

Is it situation? Is it simply subjective?

What's the best way to improve this system?
Bobbias
Tristan, the main reason most people think in2k6 shouldn't have been ranked is because the lunatic is a slightly edited version of an existing BMS chart, and because the patterns are not particularly good. The difficulty doesn't really have anything to do with it. We have rules against ranking conversions (unless you have permission from the creator), and in2k6 is just too close to the original chart. Every other diff is basically just a nerfed version of the lunatic with no originality either.

Tidek, you agreed with me and then outright said the exact opposite, shitting on overmapped stuff. I'll quote myself here:

Bobbias wrote:

Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
Tristan97

Bobbias wrote:

Tristan, the main reason most people think in2k6 shouldn't have been ranked is because the lunatic is a slightly edited version of an existing BMS chart, and because the patterns are not particularly good. The difficulty doesn't really have anything to do with it. We have rules against ranking conversions (unless you have permission from the creator), and in2k6 is just too close to the original chart. Every other diff is basically just a nerfed version of the lunatic with no originality either..
[/quote]


Oh, I was aware of that. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it. Yeah it's a pain that our highest pp awarding map isn't a legitimate creation of the community.
Prim
Cuppp
My peppy bodypillow whispers to me every night that this won't happen ever








ever
AdamMZ
We need Puppetz (from Frets on Fire) to make ET songs.

@Tidek How many times do we have to tell you. OPINIONS ARE (MOST OF THE TIME) ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. Remember that for the rest of your internet life.
Arzenvald
just wandering forum for awhile and mfw saw this.. owell..

don't mention this 'we', because i personally don't want a ranked ET beatmaps with worst quality & un-play-ability.. besides, what kind of ET map should be ranked? over 7 stars is already too much for me (because it's so DAMN hard to make a quality map over 6 stars).. and then, how many people who able to pass ET maps? and is there any mappers who want to map such maps? also is there any modders who want to mod such overloaded maps? and lastly, will BAT / QAT approves ET maps with nowadays system ranking?

well i can't even answer them, and i could say top #200 will need an 'unofficially' fun map with ET difficulty..
it could be yes or not that this community needs an ET ranked map.. but one thing in my thought.. overmapping is not how to make ET maps, and it wont be easy to rank ET map..
Drace
No, as per majority rules, "we" is the correct word to use.

A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572

Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated" ;). So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the majority of the community doesn't. It's not like you have to play them if they get ranked right? Everyone's happy.

Oh and also:

ExUsagi wrote:

with worst quality & un-play-ability

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition that did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
"Quality" is extremely subjective. Keep that in mind.
Tidek
Hehe

I know I shouldnt post here anymore, but damn me. I must

Drace wrote:

A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572

Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated" ;). So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.
General opinion of overmapping? That survey is bad because ppl had no choose. It was just "you want ET maps? yes or no" doesnt matter whether its overmapped or not. I voted yes because I want ET maps ranked as well, but not mapped in that way.
Better survey should look like that:
Should ET maps be allowed for ranking?

1. Yes, overmapped and "normal mapped" ones
2. Yes, but not overmapped ones
3. No

Im sure that results will be A LOT different ;)

Not saying that ET maps are not allowed to rank anyway lol
Starry-
"Overmapping" is so subjective it can't even be considered in an argument unless specified. This conversation it pointless, honestly, simply because it won't get anywhere. (Remember what happened last thread?)
Drace
For starters I said "you could consider", not "it is". Not only does it mean that the statement was hypothetical, it also means it was only but a tangent to the main argument.

And second of all the poll CLEARLY says, "ET maps like Unlimited spark, etc etc". If you didn't cast your vote correctly it's your own problem for not understanding basic English.

Everything I said so far is still non-disputed, and you along with all the others keep failing to make any proper arguments. Instead you're either claiming subjective matters or your own preferences as facts, or trying to nit-pick the minor elements in the opposing arguments. All in the hopes of achieving what? You think you managed to convince everyone we're wrong by doing so? Please, this is ridiculous.

And to make matters worst I'm positive you don't even know what we're talking about with overmapping. You're acting like it's bane of the devil worst possible shit that you can possibly do, and yet they've been everywhere and accepted since the days of canmusic. Even LR2 has ranked overmaps. There's no imaginary rhythms, they still follow the song perfectly fine, they just "saturate" the patterns. And like Tear said (oh yes you presented a point to help my arguments) you can't tell what's what in the upper levels anyways. So whats more important, how enjoyable the map is to play or if every note can be isolated to a specific sound after extensive study? I'm voting for the prior.

And here's the catch, it's not easy at all to implement overmapping in a way to make the map more enjoyable. Most the time the patterns will feel foreign and out of place. But it's very possible and some people do it quite well. This also goes without saying that many are also complete shit.

Like Starry- (amoungst many others) said, the matter is subjective. You'll need proper arguments against the points that's been presented in the thread in order for anything you say to be valid. The only thing you manage to accomplish by simply saying "overmapping is shit because I said so" is giving leverage to the opposite side of the argument, especially when they properly explained their own points.

And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
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