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posted

Drace wrote:

Why? For the simple reason that the map accomplished it's main purpose, to be played and enjoyed by others. Trying to set general standards as to what makes a map good or not is completely ridiculous.

Telling mappers they aren't allowed to do something in their maps because "some" people don't like it is like telling an artist he's not allowed to use a certain colour because "some" people don't like it. Expand your horizons people.
That's just how it is though. If we had all the maps ranked that others enjoy, then we'd just have a huge mess full of random shitmaps like that disconnected #blamejonimay in the ranked area. It is good for what it is, being a hard map that's completely overmapped and fun to some people. But now what? Just because a map is fun, doesnt mean that it is a rankable map. Ghostnotes, parts that are unneccessarily (is that a word?) difficult, etc (insert unrankable issue here).

I think that you can partially compare it to the process of gamedevelopment.

Simple: When something's released to the public, the dev want the game to be as polished and as bugfree as it can get so that everyone can enjoy it.

Imagine the devs of Ocarina of Time knew about the Infinite Sword Glitch or the Wrong Warp. The glitches themselves are fun to play with, since they breaks the game here and there. This opens up new possibilities for the player to have fun with the game. Cool. But this isnt what they want to have in their official release for the game. They want it playable for any player that just want to hop in and enjoy a bugfree game.
Then, more hardcore gamer found this (the bugs, glitches) and now have their fun with it, they speedrun and enjoy the game this way. The unintended way.

Now, compare this to the ranking process.
The map is damn difficult with maybe fun, but unrankable patterns (-> Bugs/Glitches). The hardcore gamers (-> high ranks) can enjoy it the more difficult/"unintended" way (-> unmodded and unranked diff) while the casuals can enjoy the "normal" game (-> modded and ranked diff)


Also, just because these maps cant get ranked yet, doesnt mean that you shouldnt map them. I cant see anything that keeps you from mapping these diffs. If you find people that like to play your map - cool, you got what you wanted.
There are many mappers that like to map extra difficult maps only. People like CRN, RLC, galv (etc, these were the first names that came to my mind) and others have huge lists of unranked beatmaps - and people like them.
posted
Your analogy would be correct if it weren't for two crucial things.

First off, this is a community driven game that's always evolving. Not a corporate game with a single and final release. The community can please themselves much better than the higher ups ever can, this is why people enjoy these kinds of games. A game like this is always about it's future, while a game like the Zelda series has no future other than waiting for it sequels.

Second, the people in charge are claiming they're limiting their ranking to "quality". But like i tried to show in my previous post, that matter is entirely subjective. Their ideas as to what constitute to a map's quality is FAR from the majority, it's only their own opinion. Mania's actually a big minority in the realm of VSRGs, and even within the community we see debates like this very thread with people not satisfied with the current map pool. It's also worth mentioning that this is only place where such unsatisfactions are taken to this extreme.

So can you really say that the map pool is of "quality" material when we keep seeing people whining about it? And that's what I lead to in my previous post; a map's true quality is how fun it is to play to the people of that skill level and general exposure. Not if it followed a certain set of arbitrary rules and requirements. I'm sure everyone here can think of maps that despite being made "like the higher ups wanted", were completely unmemorable, devoid of personality, and generally not fun to play.

tl;dr, If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then overmapping was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".

Expand your horizons, variety is a great thing.
posted
Also modding process exists so those "overmapped" maps can be as good and polished as possible.
posted
Drace is absolutely 100% correct. Mapping is a form of creative expression much the same as any other. Everyone has their own perception of 'quality'.

I look at ranking as a way to accept or endorse a map. I look at it as a way for the community to say "here are maps that we think are worth your time to play". The problem here is that what gets ranked ends up being maps that try to please as many people as possible without trying to do anything new or interesting. Sure, they're playable, and at least not awful, but it's like comparing pop music to jazz. Regardless of whether or not you understand what's happening musically in jazz, you can't deny that there's more creativity in jazz than pop music. Music has lots of 'rules' too, and what does jazz do? It ignores most of those rules. Sometimes it ends up sounding bad to a lot of people. I'm sure not everyone likes Naked City, but John Zorn, the saxaphonist and songwriter of this stuff is a well respected jazz artist anyway, and still gets to sell his music and tour. Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
posted
really that many people hate on those bms converts o.o? but yeah i agree personally that overmapping is good to a degree, it can make the map more enjoyable if its based on the feel of the map rather then the individual notes at higher levels unless you want to be playing purely speedcore to rank eventually... the important thing is that general people at that level and in that area of gameplay say lr2 vs o2jam style mapping find the song fun to play and find that the timing of the notes are done to a point where the map is comfortably playable. there is a degree of discomfort that i would allow, some songs that specifically target stamina from stepmania for example

although this may make modders and people who make maps ranked more difficult, it would definitely improve the games ranking system
posted

Drace wrote:

Tear wrote:

Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
I'd kindly recommend playing an instrument if your main concern is being able to play music. This is a rhythm game, not an instrument simulator.
lold badly about this
posted
Okay, let me ask this since I feel like it will get a sophisticated response:

Agreeing to the subjectivity of 'quality' of mapping based on groups or divisions of the VSRG masses, what is the best way to map ExTra for mania?

I personally find lZenxl's style to be a capable way of mapping that can lead to more difficult ranked beatmaps, especially since PROGUY deemed his Diatonicism difficulty for Achromat rankable (with some modding).

We can rank challenging beatmaps, and often the border of 'overmapping' can be pushed to an extent with the target group in mind. Not ridiculously, or M.A.M.A.'s Extra difficulty would be harder than IN2k6 right now.

But what constitutes as an appropriate rankable ExTra beatmap?

Entozer is very popular in the osu!mania community and he maps very high difficulty maps such as Thantos or Music Revolver, etc.

So should we be pushing to rank maps with styles similar to Entozer?

What exactly makes ET osu!mania ranked maps osu!mania styled anyway? Intersect Thunderbolt Remix and AiAe and over 5.5+ star maps are what we're looking at.

Personally, I've noticed a lot more recently as I've reached new heights of performance that I can appreciate the patterns in the maps I'm playing much more. Bangin' Burst Level 16 being a good example. So I believe the ET mania players have the best say in what we should be ranking at that difficulty, since after all, this is a community driven game.

I'd like to get challenging maps ranked myself (see Xross Infection: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/248006)

But I'm not sure if the patterns I'm creating are 'appropriate' or if I'll get shot down by BATs considering this level is too much for me to pass.

Furthermore, it's inevitable that ranking more of these significantly challenging maps (6+ stars) will get more ET players to play osu!mania more actively, so how should we consider that in our criterion?
posted
The best way to map mania is whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned osu!mania's identity should not be some narrow minded overly specific style like most other games have (o2jam focuses on LNs, BMS mostly has few or no LNs, etc.). Osu!Mania should accept every style, so that players from every game can find maps they enjoy. We shouldn't try to come up with a single characteristic style that every ranked map should conform to. Let the mappers map what they want.

If you're going to ask about Entozer stuff, this is pretty relevant: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/235994 8.46 stars according to the page. Entozer says he can't even pass it himself thanks to the HP drain. Or how about https://osu.ppy.sh/s/178027 8.80 stars on the EX diff. Or https://osu.ppy.sh/s/156500 at 10.80. If these all had proper difficulty spreads, are these considered acceptable? I can't pass any of these, but I think they're all good maps in terms of the patterns.
posted

Bobbias wrote:

The best way to map mania is whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned osu!mania's identity should not be some narrow minded overly specific style like most other games have (o2jam focuses on LNs, BMS mostly has few or no LNs, etc.). Osu!Mania should accept every style, so that players from every game can find maps they enjoy. We shouldn't try to come up with a single characteristic style that every ranked map should conform to. Let the mappers map what they want.
This and close this topic lol.

The only thing I hate from complainers is that they think that BATs wont allow to rank "ET maps". Find ma a rule in ranking criteria where its saying that you cant rank harder maps. The main reasons why "ET maps" are not ranked is that quality of those maps are sh it OR creator doesnt care about ranking his map, problem solved.

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
posted

Tidek wrote:

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.

You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?

Tristan97 wrote:

Okay, let me ask this since I feel like it will get a sophisticated response:

[...]
Honestly there simply isn't way to accomplish what the people in this thread are asking for with the current ranking system. Everything is wrong with it. It's a system that encourages biases and gives power to the wrong people. It gives attention to the wrong maps and the system encourages pointless mods which has destroyed more maps than it helped.

A good system shouldn't coast of the biases of the BATs and modders. They should actually have no say at all in the matter, the community can make their own decisions.
posted

Drace wrote:

Tidek wrote:

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.

You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?

I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.

EDIT: Forgot about one thing, the only exception I respect is keysounded map.
posted
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?

I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me


lol nice effort I guess

There's literally nothing I can reply to that since there's no argument. You can't just state something isn't a style purely because you feel like it and not say why. People can make them, people play them, people can enjoy them. Yes it can be style pure and simple, and you don't like it. And it's completely acceptable.

But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.

Ever heard of a delay chart? Doubt it.

And worst of all you avoided the main point of my reply to you. Should of done the same to you but meh.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
posted
Well, that discussion is going to nowhere, probably my last post here.

But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.
Overmapping isnt a 100% creation, its a easy way to avoid lack of ideas for the current music. It can be less or more creative, but still the most creative is to make the same fun and enjoyable map without putting any ghost notes and that is a thing I respect the most.

Also finally you got a response for this:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
posted
And like I said, that's YOUR opinion. The fact of the matter here is there's a considerable amount of people in this playerbase that share the opposite opinion. Can you not think about anyone other than yourself? There is no "right" or "wrong" in a dilemma governed by subjectivity. The best you can do is accommodate to satisfy the most people.

What exactly would be wrong to rank a few maps styled a way you don't like for the sake of satisfying a larger audience? You're giving off an extremely closed-minded vibe.

And no you didn't respond to that quote at all ^^ Goes to show you don't even understand the core of my arguments :/
posted
Its funny, how one sentece where I said that I hate overmaps could make that stupid conservation.

But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.

Have fun with discussion in that pointless topic, administration probably wont even look at it, cya.
posted
Okay, I personally agree with the idea that multiple styles should be rankable in osu!mania as a community driven game. I find it appropriate to mod maps as a way for the community to suggest more refined beatmaps, but it's also important to have diversity in a game such as this one.

Take Hesitation Snow for example. It has both an o2jam styled and a BMS styled insane difficulty. While not ET level, they represent how we can take these styles and rank them accordingly. Also, maps like Koi Saku Mirai have a more personal style that ranks as well, giving people hope in expressing their individuality.

I believe that mapping is a form of art, both technically demanding and expressive.

That being said, what is the limit for overmapping if we should be accepting of these styles? When do o2jam styled LNs become unrankable? Sister's Noise Level 42 got ranked.

When does BMS 'bullshit mania spam' become too much? Most people agree that IN2k6 should not have gotten ranked with the standards we have today for various reasons. But what's the limit?

Is it situation? Is it simply subjective?

What's the best way to improve this system?
posted
Tristan, the main reason most people think in2k6 shouldn't have been ranked is because the lunatic is a slightly edited version of an existing BMS chart, and because the patterns are not particularly good. The difficulty doesn't really have anything to do with it. We have rules against ranking conversions (unless you have permission from the creator), and in2k6 is just too close to the original chart. Every other diff is basically just a nerfed version of the lunatic with no originality either.

Tidek, you agreed with me and then outright said the exact opposite, shitting on overmapped stuff. I'll quote myself here:

Bobbias wrote:

Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
posted

Bobbias wrote:

Tristan, the main reason most people think in2k6 shouldn't have been ranked is because the lunatic is a slightly edited version of an existing BMS chart, and because the patterns are not particularly good. The difficulty doesn't really have anything to do with it. We have rules against ranking conversions (unless you have permission from the creator), and in2k6 is just too close to the original chart. Every other diff is basically just a nerfed version of the lunatic with no originality either..
[/quote]


Oh, I was aware of that. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it. Yeah it's a pain that our highest pp awarding map isn't a legitimate creation of the community.
posted
posted
My peppy bodypillow whispers to me every night that this won't happen ever








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