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posted
Then make it yourself and rank it if you think that making good quality ET maps isnt a problem.

Unfortunately, most of good mappers who can actually make pretty good 6-7* (8*+ maps are pretty impossible for 90% players from top100 unless it has easy symmetry patterns, because star rating looks only on density), dont care about ranking process.
posted

scarykidrow wrote:

Elementaires wrote:

#ETProblems
#rankhardandfunmaps2015

Even though i'm still a Novice player. ;w;
posted

scarykidrow wrote:

This is osumania, not osu standard
good to know
posted
so you want ET maps like o2jam private server most are ETchart? (based lv on 75+ = (8star)) ''just point to 7K''

NO!!

ET maps also need to care quality based on instrument. don't make fkin overmap

scarykidrow wrote:

This is osumania, not osu standard
osu!std also got ET maps, they are equal and not ranked too

#ETmainproblemtogetrank
posted

ExPew wrote:

#ETmainproblemtogetrank
hear sound --> 5 notes
1/16
posted
my opinions
1,ET map is not always overmap.
you can choose the song has many instruments,sounds.
then you can make ET map.

2,it's ok to make challenge map for player
do you know "For Ultraplayers"?
in SDVX,it was made to kill pro SDVX player lol
and many players love this.
challenge is also good.

anyway,i love calm song,i make easy map always,so it meets easy maps.
more high quality ET map please
posted
People focus on ET maps and skipped quality.
When your ET maps have quality,we will agree to rank.

Why even less ranked maps recently ?
You must think about the reason.
posted
O2Jam has way too many bad ET charts. Now, I think that's mostly because the majority of O2Jam players now are ET, and only care about having more ET maps to play.

ExPew, I don't think overmapping is always bad. Some overmapping is fun, and plays good. Not all. But some. Overmapping IS rankable: t/125409/
posted
how to judge good or bad
posted
Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
posted
Some maps just represent same sound with more notes (like 3 notes for one sound instead of 1 note) and I think it's okay
As long as map is not very overmapped and/or doesn't have ghost notes every 1/1 it should be okay to rank
Also @Tear, pepole want some challenge in maps, or they just get bored and go to other games
posted
Guys, the thing with this is, as other people pointed out already, that these maps either lack in quality and that pretty much no one can point these errors out.
For my part, I dont know shit about mania mapping or playing, but Iam sure that 11 star maps (such as the kakuzetsu) are pretty much overmapped. Like, wtf is >this< supposed to be. It basically looks like >this< to me, if one would compere it to std. Random shit scattered across the map. It's possible to hit, but Iam sure you wont, unless you play this map many many times.
Who is supposed to give these maps a proper check if even 50% speed would confuse the hell out of them. Things get unranked for being too difficult on one part (-> Jenny's FLOWER for example), even though they look good and playable, so how are these extra difficult mania maps supposed to pass the test?

If you want to play overmapped and bad-quality maps, go ahead and map your own, play unrankeds or go to another mania game.
Why dont you guys try to get into modding yourselves? None of these will ever see the light of the ranked section, unless you find a way to properly mod these diffs.
posted
I want to play harder maps and I DO mod them if I have a chance to do so. I also try to map tem decently. That doesn't really change a thing tho.
Also I don't think anyone wants 11 star maps ranked because they're obviously retardedly hard. This topic is more about maps of difficulty similar/slightly harder then current top rated maps such as Thunderbolt or IN2k6, and there are good quality maps that could be ranked (like Chaosmaid, which even appeared in MWC Finals), which do have a full spread, but they don't get attention they need and slowly die
posted

Tear wrote:

Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
I'd kindly recommend playing an instrument if your main concern is being able to play music. This is a rhythm game, not an instrument simulator.


Are you implying high density maps aren't "good" simply because you can't tell what specific sound every single note is representing? If that's the case I'd like to remind you that your criterias as to what makes a good map are heavily biased by your own skill and your previous exposures.

Skill
This is a game first and foremost. You should be having fun when playing a game, that much is elementary. And as people get better it's only normal that harder maps become their standard. New players will look at the maps that you currently think are awesome and perfect and all they'll see is simply how much more dense and difficult they are compared to what they play, the exact same thing you're currently seeing on maps above your own level. People on the overjoy scales and triple digit o2jam have fun and hold their own opinions as to what makes a good map at those levels. And surprise surprise, you'll find their criterias to be completely different.

Exposure
Did anyone notice how the majority of the LR2 community believes over half the maps here are complete shit and o2jam is nothing but a joke? Of course they're not right, but they're also not completely wrong. They've been exposed to a certain type of charting and have grown attached to it. The foreign o2jam'esque style mania has picked up (LNs and SVs galore) is simply not amusing to them because what they look for in a chart is simply not present. Since LR2 has the bigger community, is it then safe to generalize mania's map pool as bad? Absolutely not. The same thing is also happening the other way around. A large majority of this playerbase that tries the bms converts labels them as "Bullshit Mania Spam" (lol)

What is mapping anyways?
Personally, I like to think of mapping or charting as a form of art. There's nothing wrong with doing anything in your creation, the only consequences is the more obscure creations will yield less affection. Usually, in the world of arts, it's the people that created something special to express themselves that makes something exceptional, and less the ones that makes something within the boundaries of a set of rules and standards to impress others.

Where am I going with this?
This "quality" everyone is talking about is completely subjective in this field where everyone finds different things "fun". If people had fun playing it, even if it's only a few, the map has every right to be considered a product of quality no matter how bad, unpolished or ridiculous you might believe it is. Why? For the simple reason that the map accomplished it's main purpose, to be played and enjoyed by others. Trying to set general standards as to what makes a map good or not is completely ridiculous.

Telling mappers they aren't allowed to do something in their maps because "some" people don't like it is like telling an artist he's not allowed to use a certain colour because "some" people don't like it. Expand your horizons people.
posted
Thank You Based Drace
posted

Drace wrote:

Why? For the simple reason that the map accomplished it's main purpose, to be played and enjoyed by others. Trying to set general standards as to what makes a map good or not is completely ridiculous.

Telling mappers they aren't allowed to do something in their maps because "some" people don't like it is like telling an artist he's not allowed to use a certain colour because "some" people don't like it. Expand your horizons people.
That's just how it is though. If we had all the maps ranked that others enjoy, then we'd just have a huge mess full of random shitmaps like that disconnected #blamejonimay in the ranked area. It is good for what it is, being a hard map that's completely overmapped and fun to some people. But now what? Just because a map is fun, doesnt mean that it is a rankable map. Ghostnotes, parts that are unneccessarily (is that a word?) difficult, etc (insert unrankable issue here).

I think that you can partially compare it to the process of gamedevelopment.

Simple: When something's released to the public, the dev want the game to be as polished and as bugfree as it can get so that everyone can enjoy it.

Imagine the devs of Ocarina of Time knew about the Infinite Sword Glitch or the Wrong Warp. The glitches themselves are fun to play with, since they breaks the game here and there. This opens up new possibilities for the player to have fun with the game. Cool. But this isnt what they want to have in their official release for the game. They want it playable for any player that just want to hop in and enjoy a bugfree game.
Then, more hardcore gamer found this (the bugs, glitches) and now have their fun with it, they speedrun and enjoy the game this way. The unintended way.

Now, compare this to the ranking process.
The map is damn difficult with maybe fun, but unrankable patterns (-> Bugs/Glitches). The hardcore gamers (-> high ranks) can enjoy it the more difficult/"unintended" way (-> unmodded and unranked diff) while the casuals can enjoy the "normal" game (-> modded and ranked diff)


Also, just because these maps cant get ranked yet, doesnt mean that you shouldnt map them. I cant see anything that keeps you from mapping these diffs. If you find people that like to play your map - cool, you got what you wanted.
There are many mappers that like to map extra difficult maps only. People like CRN, RLC, galv (etc, these were the first names that came to my mind) and others have huge lists of unranked beatmaps - and people like them.
posted
Your analogy would be correct if it weren't for two crucial things.

First off, this is a community driven game that's always evolving. Not a corporate game with a single and final release. The community can please themselves much better than the higher ups ever can, this is why people enjoy these kinds of games. A game like this is always about it's future, while a game like the Zelda series has no future other than waiting for it sequels.

Second, the people in charge are claiming they're limiting their ranking to "quality". But like i tried to show in my previous post, that matter is entirely subjective. Their ideas as to what constitute to a map's quality is FAR from the majority, it's only their own opinion. Mania's actually a big minority in the realm of VSRGs, and even within the community we see debates like this very thread with people not satisfied with the current map pool. It's also worth mentioning that this is only place where such unsatisfactions are taken to this extreme.

So can you really say that the map pool is of "quality" material when we keep seeing people whining about it? And that's what I lead to in my previous post; a map's true quality is how fun it is to play to the people of that skill level and general exposure. Not if it followed a certain set of arbitrary rules and requirements. I'm sure everyone here can think of maps that despite being made "like the higher ups wanted", were completely unmemorable, devoid of personality, and generally not fun to play.

tl;dr, If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then overmapping was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".

Expand your horizons, variety is a great thing.
posted
Also modding process exists so those "overmapped" maps can be as good and polished as possible.
posted
Drace is absolutely 100% correct. Mapping is a form of creative expression much the same as any other. Everyone has their own perception of 'quality'.

I look at ranking as a way to accept or endorse a map. I look at it as a way for the community to say "here are maps that we think are worth your time to play". The problem here is that what gets ranked ends up being maps that try to please as many people as possible without trying to do anything new or interesting. Sure, they're playable, and at least not awful, but it's like comparing pop music to jazz. Regardless of whether or not you understand what's happening musically in jazz, you can't deny that there's more creativity in jazz than pop music. Music has lots of 'rules' too, and what does jazz do? It ignores most of those rules. Sometimes it ends up sounding bad to a lot of people. I'm sure not everyone likes Naked City, but John Zorn, the saxaphonist and songwriter of this stuff is a well respected jazz artist anyway, and still gets to sell his music and tour. Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
posted
really that many people hate on those bms converts o.o? but yeah i agree personally that overmapping is good to a degree, it can make the map more enjoyable if its based on the feel of the map rather then the individual notes at higher levels unless you want to be playing purely speedcore to rank eventually... the important thing is that general people at that level and in that area of gameplay say lr2 vs o2jam style mapping find the song fun to play and find that the timing of the notes are done to a point where the map is comfortably playable. there is a degree of discomfort that i would allow, some songs that specifically target stamina from stepmania for example

although this may make modders and people who make maps ranked more difficult, it would definitely improve the games ranking system
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