Even if you have the reaction speed for it, it is still pretty taxing to have to push it to that speed, more than the load that the reduced density lifts off, which is why people that can read AR10 sometimes say stuff like having to focus more when playing AR10, or if they blink then they miss a note, or it hurts their eyes or whatever.Almost wrote:
That's because they don't have the reaction speed for it. If the AR is too fast for you, there is no real reading going on, it's all playing by reaction.cheezstik wrote:
Part of reading is the speed of it though. The majority of players that can't read ar10, even if they edited a really simple map that wasnt dense at all to be ar10. Even if the density decreased, it's too fast, which heavily outweighs the reduced density in terms of difficulty. This is proven by no one playing ar11 because of their inability to read it, it does reduce density, but becomes too fast in the process.
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to me speed has nothing to do with AR but how rapidly the notes are actually coming and how short the delay between them is
Lerq
welcome to object densityRiince wrote:
to me speed has nothing to do with AR but how rapidly the notes are actually coming and how short the delay between them is
The higher the bpm relative to the AR, the harder it is to read.
inb4 "but i said the speed didn't matter!"
the higher the bpm is, the shorter the delay between notes.
Which is why Big Black would've been much nicer to read at 10.3, but that's not exactly possible
narrill didnt show to multiplayer i think we have a clear winner
You have to focus for every AR not just AR10. AR10 can feel "normal" in speed if you play too much of it.cheezstik wrote:
Even if you have the reaction speed for it, it is still pretty taxing to have to push it to that speed, more than the load that the reduced density lifts off, which is why people that can read AR10 sometimes say stuff like having to focus more when playing AR10, or if they blink then they miss a note, or it hurts their eyes or whatever.Almost wrote:
That's because they don't have the reaction speed for it. If the AR is too fast for you, there is no real reading going on, it's all playing by reaction.
And ironically, he's claiming that everyone should be playing the meta when DT is the current meta not HR.Tess wrote:
This discussion is basically a HR player saying all other mods are invalid and not listening to the several people providing counterarguments
Those replays didn't prove that you have an ability to read, they proved that you're capable of passably reading a wide variety of ARs. This distinction is pretty central to my argument.Tess wrote:
For the record, I linked those replays because you said I had no replays that confirmed my claimed ability to read.
This right here is where you lose me. Object density is absolutely not the main factor of reading difficulty, map complexity is the main factor of reading difficulty. Object density and approach speed, which no one seems to like to talk about, are both secondary factors that simply serve as a lens through which map complexity is presented.Lerq wrote:
This is because object density is the main factor of reading difficulty
Great, now things are getting empirical. Find me a map that has a similar difficulty with HR that this one does with DT and we can compare the two.Lerq wrote:
Actually, I guess I can just leave one: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/21877
There are two arguments here from my perspective:Tess wrote:
It's more like you deny any kind of argument presented with semi-related ignorant reasoning or simply change the topic altogether, either because you don't want to admit to not having a retort or because you can't keep up with forum conversation.
1. Low AR training helps with high ARs because low AR increases density and density increases reading difficulty
I responded to this in the long post that no one seems to want to respond to. Basically, density is just one aspect of reading, and if you're playing with the current meta and have been choosing your maps properly there's no reason for extra density training to be necessary. I mean honestly, by the time you reach the caliber of map that reaches density levels comparable to EZ mod you're probably top 10. There's no reason for that much density training to be necessary, and density isn't the sole component of reading.
2. DT is more difficult to read than HR
This one really baffles me, because I don't think I've seen a single poster in the past few months claim that DT offers higher complexity than HR or nomod at a given difficulty without being shot down immediately by a handful of other posters. I've already explained why this is the case: map complexity and map difficulty are roughly proportional in the current mapping meta, and DT is substantially harder than HR and nomod. It follows that at a constant difficulty DT will be less complex than both HR and nomod.
The only rebuttal I've been given for either of these arguments is "loldensity tho," and the flaw in that should be obvious. You could pick any run-of-the-mill hard DT you wanted and it would be more dense than, say, Insane Techniques, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as hard to read. I honestly don't know how to explain it any simpler than that.
Yeah, I'm not playing the current meta, I don't know why you think that's relevant. This is actually pretty solid evidence for DT being less complex than HR per difficulty point when you consider that the difficulty calcs don't consider complexity at all.Almost wrote:
And ironically, he's claiming that everyone should be playing the meta when DT is the current meta not HR.
This discussion is a bunch of scrubs circlejerking over density while ignoring complexity. Just another day in G&R I guess. I really need to sleep now, so bai.Tess wrote:
This discussion is basically a HR player saying all other mods are invalid and not listening to the several people providing counterarguments
Narrill wrote:
Those replays didn't prove that you have an ability to read, they proved that you're capable of passably reading a wide variety of ARs. This distinction is pretty central to my argument.Tess wrote:
For the record, I linked those replays because you said I had no replays that confirmed my claimed ability to read.
Narrill wrote:
Those replays didn't prove that you have an ability to read, they proved that you're capable of passably reading
Narrill wrote:
Those replays didn't prove that you have an ability to read, they proved that you're capable of reading
Narrill wrote:
they proved that you're capable of reading
And that is why analphabetics shouldn't argue definitions~
Lerq
The issue here is that map complexity only holds its true difficulty if the object density is at its highest point. At no point does HR offer this, so that only leaves DT/nomod, which are equal in reading difficulty.Narill wrote:
This right here is where you lose me. Object density is absolutely not the main factor of reading difficulty, map complexity is the main factor of reading difficulty. Object density and approach speed, which no one seems to like to talk about, are both secondary factors that simply serve as a lens through which map complexity is presented.Lerq wrote:
This is because object density is the main factor of reading difficulty
A map could have the most intricate patterns in existence, but if the density is too low then that pattern loses potentially all of its difficulty. An example of a map that gains a lot of difficulty through density is Nogard's atama no taisou. This map obviously doesn't become 'hurr durr ezpz' with hardrock on, but it does become easier to read (disregard the other factors of hardrock, we're discussing the reading factors).
This is, to me, the main point I wanted to argue. Hard rock is inherently easier to read than the alternative mod variations.
Nice ad hominem at the end btw. Throwing logical fallacies around is the fastest way to get people to disregard any input you have.
Narrill wrote:
Those replays didn't prove that you have an ability to read, they proved that you're capable of passably reading a wide variety of ARs.
Man this thread sucks. Bring back the frogs please.Narrill wrote:
Those replays didn't prove that you have an ability to read, they proved that you're capable of... reading
Angusman wrote:
Man this thread sucks. Bring back the frogs please.
Do I get extra points for being on topic and posting frogs simultaneously?
suck me DT is life hr is for coconut milks get outta here
DTLORDS SUCKA
hr is ez mod for slow nerds
DTLORDS SUCKA
hr is ez mod for slow nerds
Oh shit, you know a thread is getting hectic when the "welcome to ossssss" guy walks in.pola[r]is wrote:
beep boop farm more beep boop
um no guysz hr is a harder mod because playing od10 200bpm streams is harder than od9.6 300bpm streams
see you next time
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/228524 welcome to oss
noob mek using welcome to oss as an excuse to advertise his own map
What the actual fuck, why hasnt this shit been locked 6 pages ago
mods where u at
mods where u at
I used to like intelligent discussions... But then Narrill came along and redefined the word intelligent... and reading and complexity.
You seem to assume that using less common words and terminology, and calling others stupid means "intelligent". He didn't redefine the word intelligent at all, he just doesn't fit the definition. If you just read back you can see that a majority of the people either disagreed or misunderstood his points. From the words he was using, I'd gather that he felt misunderstood. Not being capable of making yourself understood in general is the very opposite of intelligence, regardless of how good your verbal skills may be.RaneFire wrote:
I used to like intelligent discussions... But then Narrill came along and redefined the word intelligent... and reading and complexity.
The better term to use here would be "stubborn". Very incredibly stubborn.
Wow Tess please, can you guys like stop picking on each other? o_O What is this, elementary school?
this is ossssssZare wrote:
Wow Tess please, can you guys like stop picking on each other? o_O What is this, elementary school?
Yeah well... that was the point. He didn't actually redefine it by anything he said, but it was implied since he steered the debate to his view only, disregarding any contradiction, thus redefining it in that sense, but only for himself, and argues that we misunderstand the absolute true definition (his).Tess wrote:
...He didn't redefine the word intelligent at all, he just doesn't fit the definition.RaneFire wrote:
I used to like intelligent discussions... But then Narrill came along and redefined the word intelligent... and reading and complexity.
So that was just entertaining the possibility of Narrill being right. i.e. sarcasm. 3 lines to explain that is already TL;DR.
this is so subjective it hurts (for me it's the exact opposite)Riince wrote:
ar10 is the easiest part of playing hard rock followed by circle size then OD
it's objective because i said sosilmarilen wrote:
this is so subjective it hurts (for me it's the exact opposite)Riince wrote:
ar10 is the easiest part of playing hard rock followed by circle size then OD
damn i cant beat your freedom
i have a hard time believing you find ar10 hardsilmarilen wrote:
damn i cant beat your freedom
So we're stooping to misquotes now? Like I said, the difference between AR proficiency and actual reading skill is central to my argument here.Tess wrote:
And that is why analphabetics shouldn't argue definitions~
Again, you're ignoring the fact that density and reading speed have a give and take relationship, and that decreasing the time the player has to read a pattern makes the pattern more difficult to read. The only reason people seem to think reading speed is easy now is because the meta works them into it from day one. Let me remind you once again that just a few years ago people thought AR10 would never be common, and no one even thought it was possible to play at AR11.Lerq wrote:
The issue here is that map complexity only holds its true difficulty if the object density is at its highest point. At no point does HR offer this, so that only leaves DT/nomod, which are equal in reading difficulty.
And since I have the quote open, DT and no mod being equal is an assertion you can't just throw around without some justification; whether we're assuming constant difficulty or not, the two are far from equal.
You make me sad RaneFire. I haven't redefined anything here.RaneFire wrote:
I used to like intelligent discussions... But then Narrill came along and redefined the word intelligent... and reading and complexity.
look at the amount of ar10 scores in my top performanceRiince wrote:
i have a hard time believing you find ar10 hardsilmarilen wrote:
damn i cant beat your freedom
'murican pride, 'murican freedom, 'murican cuisine,silmarilen wrote:
damn i cant beat your freedom
'murican dick size
Allow me.Narrill wrote:
You make me sad RaneFire. I haven't redefined anything here.
This "actual reading skill" you are referring to could be better referred to as the transition phase to action, and as a matter of fact, I have argued this point a year ago and been shot down, because this component is mostly your mechanical skill (ability to physically play the game from mental stimuli). A skilled taiko player informed me exactly how this works and that reading has almost nothing to do with it (yes, this applies to other rhythm games). The neuromuscular relationship (brain>nervous system>muscles) plays an important part here, and is developed through practice methods which challenge this relationship specifically. That's what you do to achieve a high rank in few play counts, so congratulations on achieving good mechanical skill.Narrill wrote:
So we're stooping to misquotes now? Like I said, the difference between AR proficiency and actual reading skill is central to my argument here.Tess wrote:
And that is why analphabetics shouldn't argue definitions~
Reading skill, as defined by the community, is mostly mental. So for now, it refers to versatility in what you can read and decipher from objects on screen, consistency and consistent accuracy (not necessarily excellent, but little variation or mis-reads), and not so much about how sequentially instantaneous this process is, or the level of finesse you have doing it, as you are alluding to. It will usually be enough for the person playing what he does, if he can read it, but lower ranks cannot compare their mechanical skill to a higher level player, even if they can read something.
By your definition of reading skill, which is actually the neural/physical relationship between reading and execution, reading is actually everyone's biggest weakness, because it sets the limit of the speed at which you can send the correct signals to play patterns in a time frame, regardless of AR. I'd rather call this mechanical skill, which depends on reading first. I'd also like to point out that HR is probably the best mod for training mechanical skill, up to point where you need to go to higher bpm's.
Your post on page 8 is where you diverged from the commonly accepted definition of reading by picking on Almost.
Your post on page 10 is where you basically called Almost terrible at the game because he didn't have the same mechanical skill as you, which you define as "actual reading skill" for HR.
Narrill wrote:
So we're stooping to misquotes now? Like I said, the difference between AR proficiency and actual reading skill is central to my argument here.Tess wrote:
And that is why analphabetics shouldn't argue definitions~Again, you're ignoring the fact that density and reading speed have a give and take relationship, and that decreasing the time the player has to read a pattern makes the pattern more difficult to read. The only reason people seem to think reading speed is easy now is because the meta works them into it from day one. Let me remind you once again that just a few years ago people thought AR10 would never be common, and no one even thought it was possible to play at AR11.Lerq wrote:
The issue here is that map complexity only holds its true difficulty if the object density is at its highest point. At no point does HR offer this, so that only leaves DT/nomod, which are equal in reading difficulty.
And since I have the quote open, DT and no mod being equal is an assertion you can't just throw around without some justification; whether we're assuming constant difficulty or not, the two are far from equal.You make me sad RaneFire. I haven't redefined anything here.RaneFire wrote:
I used to like intelligent discussions... But then Narrill came along and redefined the word intelligent... and reading and complexity.
Lol @ how this still hasn't been locked, here I'll say the magic words:
*Discussion about banned players*
*How to get secret achievements*
Ok mods are on their way any second now!
*Discussion about banned players*
*How to get secret achievements*
Ok mods are on their way any second now!
ZenithPhantasm
Can you cite a community-approved definition? I don't really care what the forum hivemind may or may not gravitate towards, I have always defined reading as the process of taking in visual stimuli and determining from that stimuli what movements are necessary. If that broad definition is what's under fire here than we're just gonna continue to disagree, but throughout my entire posting history I can guarantee that definition has remained constant.RaneFire wrote:
as defined by the community
You call the reading skill I'm describing mechanical, more neurological than mental. So what? Surely you aren't suggesting that reading is purely a function of knowledge and willpower, are you? That anyone could do it without practice if they knew how? Obviously it's a largely unconscious skill that must be developed over time, that's precisely how I've been presenting it. What keeps it from being the universal limiting factor as you claim is that reading ends somewhere between the initial motion and the follow-through and aim/accuracy takes over. I'm not a neurologist (I suspect none of you are either, so this doesn't really mean much), but I can tell you that I can watch just about any map and think through the motions, relax most any map, autopilot most any map (with two hands, and with some time), but my skills fall off long before I can make use of it.
Are you really gonna try to convince me that reading is nothing more than AR proficiency?
EDIT: Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say. The definition at the beginning of your second paragraph is essentially my definition of reading, but it's silly to think that the speed of the process is irrelevant. That speed may be mechanical, but it's integral to the application of the process, and decreasing the time that can be allotted to that process necessarily makes it more difficult to perform consistently. The complexity of the patterns themselves plays a part as well; more difficult patterns require more time to decipher. And this is where the definition transitions into all of the other arguments I've been making regarding AR acting as a lens for map complexity and the necessity of high AR practice in learning to read at high ARs.
Aww, big bad narrill called someone a big baddie and maybe hurt their feelings, what ever will we do?RaneFire wrote:
Your post on page 8 is where you diverged from the commonly accepted definition of reading by picking on Almost.
Your post on page 10 is where you basically called Almost terrible at the game because he didn't have the same mechanical skill as you, which you define as "actual reading skill" for HR.
Nothing, because in the context of the current meta Almost is probably bad and should stop trying to tell people how to improve at the current meta. That's really what the rub here is, playing the way you want with no regard for what's in style is admirable until you try to pass it off as beneficial.
how do i get the hush hush achievemments i think cookiezi told me once but he got banned i cant ask him again
also peppy is illuminati
also peppy is illuminati
This is not even elementary school level
Guys, using smart words won't necessarily make you look smart
These discussions are pointless to the community, they're cancerous to read and are only based for your interpersonal discrepancies (see, I can do this bullshit too)
If you need to continue your head-smashing and stubborn point-proving, do it via PM, but drop this topic.
Please.
Guys, using smart words won't necessarily make you look smart
These discussions are pointless to the community, they're cancerous to read and are only based for your interpersonal discrepancies (see, I can do this bullshit too)
If you need to continue your head-smashing and stubborn point-proving, do it via PM, but drop this topic.
Please.