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[Rule Clarification] Wiggle Sliders

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Total Posts
34
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
Like, I know wiggle sliders are unrankable, but what exactly constitutes as something that falls under unrankability?

ie.


Is something like this unrankable, or does it technically have a clear path?

It hasn't really been defined, and I feel it should be more defined, especially as more mappers start using them.
Piine
1,573 posts
Joined March 2012
Piine
Thats un-rankable? Well...you learn something new every day. I don't really see how that un-rankable and I may say if it used properly and not in a crazy way, then why not.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
game-breaking.

p/2615668
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx
idk how did this one get ranked then https://osu.ppy.sh/s/141329 because it's a fairly recent map

Last edited by xxdeathx , edited 1 time in total.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
The same way any other mistake gets past the ranking process.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
It's an artificial way to slow down sliders, that's why.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
But like how much space should there be for it to be considered rankable
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
Neither of those examples really 'break' anything. They may look like arse but they would play like a slider of the same visual length. Shit like this is when you can say something is broken when using red anchors.
ColdTooth
1,100 posts
Joined June 2012
ColdTooth
imo i thought red anchors could be use to create unique shapes other than this weird 'slow-down'
Xivaxi
133 posts
Joined November 2011
Xivaxi
I never saw these as "an artificial way to slow down sliders"... Some held notes just feel a lot more wiggly and wonky than others, i.e. stupid wubs or screams.

When they're just arbitrarily thrown around with no concern for the music it's pretty bad though. But I guess the same can be said about literally everything in mapping.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
I would say it should be rankable if it does not slow down the speed - as it does not slowdown the speed every time that much. For example if we take a look at grumd's Tear Rain, there are rounded sliders which use red points, so it is sharp, but if you make a regular rounded slider with single point, it will be a bit longer, as if you used 0.9x SV or so. Actually I would say if it would technically slow the slider like 0.8x SV or less would be used, it is unrankable, else I don't see problem in those wiggle sliders, they are imo pretty cool if used correctly. If the part has already multiplied SV, for example like 1.5x, then the maximum change done with wiggles could be like if you used 1.2x SV. (current SV, not overall / 0.8)

So if actually it could be rule, maybe we could list it like:

You cannot alter the slider velocity by usage of high amount of red slider points. It is only allowed if the speed would not be lower than usage of 0.8x slider velocity multiplier related to current slider velocity, not overall.
Sonnyc
7,753 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc
How about setting an angle allowance? Something like, "If the red points are under 90º, it's acceptable"
Well seems a little pointless but anyways.

Rankable
Unrankable

In fact, Wafu's idea seems fine too.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I remember it used to be fine if you also increased the slider speed to counter the slow down the wiggles cause.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

Sonnyc wrote:

Actually, I somehow can and cannot agree on this. The angle limit maybe might be used here, but if we would take my idea in consideration, it would be not so needed. Anyway, I would say the rankability shall be reversed. The first slider you put here is afflicting the SV more than the second one, so it is not working as a design, but it alters the gameplay. I would say it should not change the gameplay, it should be used only for design stuff, so that's why I recommended the manual SV limit, more over the angle, which would be different on each SV and each slider length.

To explain better, here's a screenshot, first slider and last slider are 1/2 sliders with 1.60 SV (multiplier = 1.00x) and the straight slider between them is 1/2 slider with 0.8x multiplier - This shows the minimum length of slider with wiggle. That's what I meant.

SPOILER
Kodora
Kodora
Wiggles are fine as long as they don't affect sliderball movement speed, there is nothing wrong with them.
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,315 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible
I thought a wiggle like shown in the first post is fine, but if it's wiggling AND not wiggling in one slider, it's unrankable.
byfar
1,186 posts
Joined July 2014
byfar
Scarlet rose has this type of slider too lol

so does gold dust
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
if it matches the music and is readable, why not

there's no reason to put any sort of restriction on them. The strength of the wiggle should match the music, and if done right, putting an angle limit doesn't make sense. As previously stated, the modding process should fix up these sliders so that they are adequate for the average player (of the difficulty). If the BATs and QATs do their job correctly, these sliders will be readable and will make sense no matter what angle, or what wiggles or how many wiggles it has.

It's kinda like trying to ask to define exactly what a unicorn is. We have basic features that make it a unicorn, such as a horn and it's horse-like (maybe usually white), but who is to say what the mane has to look like, or that it even has one, or that it needs to have wings, etc.

So what is the basic feature of a wiggle slider? I would probably say that as long as it has noticeable wiggles, then it's a wiggle slider, regardless of how noticeable the change in speed is.

so we have the basic features of what a wiggle slider is, and as long as everyone agrees that it is one, then we can make the judgment of whether or not it fits.

i guess the only restriction (or at least guideline) we should have is to try not to exaggerate the zig zags too much (and it shouldn't slow down the apparent SV to like 0.5x or like 2.0x)like:

this is kind just ugly looking, and i'm just overexaggerating the zig zags, but you know what i mean
Mao
Elite Mapper II
2,963 posts
Joined December 2012
Mao

Irreversible wrote:

I thought a wiggle like shown in the first post is fine, but if it's wiggling AND not wiggling in one slider, it's unrankable.
Yeah I thought it's like this as well because it's not really unreadable if it has a constant speed. As far as I thought they shouldn't change the speed within a Slider so that the slider has different speeds.

byfar wrote:

Scarlet rose has this type of slider too lol

so does gold dust
That was before the rule was made up if I remember correctly.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
I don't see what the problem with them is. Sometimes there just isn't a better way to show that the slider will be slow, if a transition between a fast part of the song and a slow part is too sudden then there aren't many other ways of showing the slowdown, using a straight slider will just confuse the player and disorientate them. If it plays well then what's the problem.

I personally feel that they're LESS readable if they're the same speed as the other sliders around them.
69653863
1,818 posts
Joined January 2012
69653863
Just be logical. If it's readable and playable, then it's a go.
We can't define slider wiggling amount due to the qualitative nature of sliders. It should be treated per-map basis and therefore cannot be simply defined by a rule.
Sync
osu! Alumni
1,575 posts
Joined April 2011
Sync

inverness wrote:

Just be logical. If it's readable and playable, then it's a go.
We can't define slider wiggling amount due to the qualitative nature of sliders. It should be treated per-map basis and therefore cannot be simply defined by a rule.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
As mentioned before, the issue with wiggles is artificially slowing down sliders, which can be countered by using a speed up and then it should be fine.
Granger
835 posts
Joined April 2014
Granger
I think the same as jesus, if you speed up a wiggle its going to be less readable, it wiggles, logically im going to expect it it to be slower. Anything else is uninutive.
Bara-
11,955 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Slider ticks
No need to explain further right?
As long as they are present, I think they can be as wiggly as possible
Ok, no exagerating, but you will understand what I mean, right?
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

baraatje123 wrote:

Slider ticks
No need to explain further right?
As long as they are present, I think they can be as wiggly as possible
Ok, no exagerating, but you will understand what I mean, right?
Slider ticks appear gradually now and they don't appear at all if they're underneath a slider start/end so they're not very useful to the player in general. This changed a couple months back but back then it was FAR worse, the delay to spawn ticks was far higher than now.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
i'm usually logical about things but what happens when I'm logical is that shit gets unranked, so some sort of guideline should be made
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,844 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
no guys.

its unrankable when the wiggles changes a slider speed while the slider is moving.

if the slider moves at consistent speed whether it wiggles or not, its fine.
pw384
2,286 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384
I think wiggle sliders are hard to be defined objectively. But I prefer the following to be sth like a guideline or blablabla

1. If a slider won't cause misreading, it is fine.
2. If a speed changing in one slider (by using anchors) can cause slight misreading but won't cause a slider break, it is okay.
For example, all 'wiggle' sliders appearing in the following maps are acceptable bcz they won't cause serious sliderbreaks due to slider speed.
CON - Cruel Clocks (Amamiya Yuko) [L_P]
Renard - Rainbow Dash Likes Girls (Stay Gay Pony Girl) (ztrot)
3. If it causes a slider break, it needs to be considered.
4. If it is a burai slider, it should be prohibited in serious ranking process.

/me flees
Kodora
Kodora

384059043 wrote:

4. If it is a burai slider, it should be prohibited in serious ranking process.
I also don't really see anything wrong with burais for ages, they're much more playable than sliders where anchors used to change sliderball speed

sorry for offtopic
kirinokirino
354 posts
Joined June 2011
kirinokirino
Is this a wiggle slider?
Is this map going to be unranked? I hope not
Why?
SPOILER
Last edited by kirinokirino , edited 1 time in total.
Sonnyc
7,753 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc
The wiggle above is fine.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Yeah, just make them wide and obvious. The real rule-breakers are those sausages which are either barely thicker than normal sliders, or are actually as thick as normal sliders.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Seems like discussion has came to a stop here.

Flaming.
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