expected more than a half of those be in a mappool, pretty good one for group stage though the tiebreaker map is something.. not challenging but random-miss-map IMO, reminded me of Denied map and Last vision for last one
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osu! World Cup 2014 - Mappool Discussion
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The competition shouldn't be held back because of this, after the group stages all of those teams will be gone anyway.buny wrote:
the thing is, is that osu lacks pro players in each country, and in most countries won't even have 2+ star playersjesus1412 wrote:
I disagree with ar9 dt for the group stages but this IS the new high level meta, this IS the highest level tournament. The contents of the pool should reflect to high level meta and you'll be very stretched to find someone in the top 300 who has no ar9+dt scores.
Gladi I appreciate your concern with how the maps should be getting harder each stage, but I think the starting level is still a bit too low.
It's so low that the skill actually might not matter AT ALL. I can assure you that each and every OWC player can FC those songs 9 out of 10 tries, so your aim for them not to be consistency-oriented will be missed. I can only imagine it getting better later, but I already can predict some possible surprises when an underdog wins against a top team.
As to repicks, I am totally for repicks but only if they haven't been picked many times in previous OWCs, especially those from Semis/finals like Calamity Fortune or O.T.N or whatever.
It's so low that the skill actually might not matter AT ALL. I can assure you that each and every OWC player can FC those songs 9 out of 10 tries, so your aim for them not to be consistency-oriented will be missed. I can only imagine it getting better later, but I already can predict some possible surprises when an underdog wins against a top team.
As to repicks, I am totally for repicks but only if they haven't been picked many times in previous OWCs, especially those from Semis/finals like Calamity Fortune or O.T.N or whatever.
this makes me feel specialjesus1412 wrote:
I disagree with ar9 dt for the group stages but this IS the new high level meta, this IS the highest level tournament. The contents of the pool should reflect to high level meta and you'll be very stretched to find someone in the top 300 who has no ar9+dt scores.
May be just me, but I just EXTREMELY disliked the Yoiduki Maiuta HD map. That's the only complaint I have, rest of the mappool is really nice.
This map is cool ;w;Blue Dragon wrote:
May be just me, but I just EXTREMELY disliked the Yoiduki Maiuta HD map.
Not easy to play this one with HD, you need to play this map a few times to memorize hidden notes, and jumps between streams.
before I opened the thread I was like, "bd must be talking about my map"
am I a wizard?
am I a wizard?
Skystar HD hype lolAmamiya Yuko wrote:
before I opened the thread I was like, "bd must be talking about my map"
am I a wizard?
Anyway imo there's should be more variety of AR, like lower AR pick or something, it could be use as a strategy too `-`
about what i said and strategy
The strategic point of DT is that the enemy team may have too less people which can handle faster bpm
Because the DT maps are all same bpm/lower bpm than the nomod maps and are shorter i can essentially just pick nomod and the DT picks are completly useless from a tactical view
The strategic point of DT is that the enemy team may have too less people which can handle faster bpm
Because the DT maps are all same bpm/lower bpm than the nomod maps and are shorter i can essentially just pick nomod and the DT picks are completly useless from a tactical view
You're a hentai wizardAmamiya Yuko wrote:
am I a wizard?
/me runs
cptnXn I think you've played too much DoubleTime to not have understood that fast BPM is only a part of what playing DoubleTime is. Surely you know this?
Independent of that, I find the DoubleTime maps fitting for group stages. It always has been around this difficulty, and it seems consistent to me.
I also like Gladi's philosophy (and the resultant maps) on map-picking, shows you he's the right man for the job. Pretty satisfied with what we got.
Independent of that, I find the DoubleTime maps fitting for group stages. It always has been around this difficulty, and it seems consistent to me.
I also like Gladi's philosophy (and the resultant maps) on map-picking, shows you he's the right man for the job. Pretty satisfied with what we got.
Good mappool overall, but I still have some concerns:
DT: Maps seem a bit easy and don't really feel fast (which is kinda the point of DT)
HD: capitaro - Yoiduki Maiuta (Amamiya Yuko) [Insane] seems way harder than any of the other maps (or is that just me?)
Tiebreaker: It's a good map but it seems a bit too easy. I feel like it has about the same difficulty as the NoMod maps and a tiebreaker map should be a bit harder than the other maps of the stage.
NoMod, FreeMod and HR pools are good.
The only other thing that bothers me is how similar some of the maps are. AR's are all the same and even bpm has little variety.
Still a really good mappool, good job Gladi and ToGlette.
DT: Maps seem a bit easy and don't really feel fast (which is kinda the point of DT)
HD: capitaro - Yoiduki Maiuta (Amamiya Yuko) [Insane] seems way harder than any of the other maps (or is that just me?)
Tiebreaker: It's a good map but it seems a bit too easy. I feel like it has about the same difficulty as the NoMod maps and a tiebreaker map should be a bit harder than the other maps of the stage.
NoMod, FreeMod and HR pools are good.
The only other thing that bothers me is how similar some of the maps are. AR's are all the same and even bpm has little variety.
Still a really good mappool, good job Gladi and ToGlette.
Like cptnXn said, the only problem here is DT bracket, Im not saying that it should be AR9 + DT from beginning, but they should... nah they MUST be faster than maps in other brackets. (with 140+ base bpm), otherwise DT makes no difference compared to nomod maps except 0,3 higher AR.
I actually like most of your maps, and I liked that map, just not with HD :<Amamiya Yuko wrote:
before I opened the thread I was like, "bd must be talking about my map"
am I a wizard?
I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.
Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"
I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"
I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
You believe that low seeded teams will make less random misses and better acc through WHOLE match than top seeded teams?Azer wrote:
I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.
Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"
I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
It's happened many times before.Tidek wrote:
You believe that low seeded teams will make less random misses and better acc through WHOLE match than top seeded teams?Azer wrote:
I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.
Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"
I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
If you miss on easy maps then you don't deserve to be good. You heard me right. It is also why so many high-ranked players just disappear in OWCs while some of the not-so-high ranked players consistently turn up.Azer wrote:
I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.
Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"
I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
I think this is a very good move for the spectator's point of view. Will keep things interesting.
As for the competitors side... I guess that's up to opinion.
As for the competitors side... I guess that's up to opinion.
yeah I agree honestly, consistency is a skill. even if you're super fast and high ranked, it's completely fair that you get knocked out of the tournament because of worse consistency than a lower ranked player.KRZY wrote:
If you miss on easy maps then you don't deserve to be good. You heard me right. It is also why so many high-ranked players just disappear in OWCs while some of the not-so-high ranked players consistently turn up.Azer wrote:
I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool. If a bunch of 4 digits can eliminate a top seeded team because a few of them missed a few times & the 4 digit team would get crushed in the next few pools and possibly fail all the maps in there, the mappool is too easy.
Also as for entertainment, It's much better for the mindset to be "Who will hold the highest combo" (as in fullcombos should be RARE) and not "Who will miss first?"
I guess it's too late to even argue this by now but I really hope the later stages are MUCH harder than the difficulty curve you have planned. Tournament mappools should not cater to the lowest skill level.
although I also agree that maps shouldn't be so easy that most players can easily FC them without too much pressure, then a random miss by a player on one side decides the outcome.
Consistency is underrated and must be the main skill in a tournament. If the maps are easy, high ranked players won't have any problems, otherwise they don't deserve to be where they are.
Worse teams better start praying to RNGod.KRZY wrote:
If you miss on easy maps then you don't deserve to be good. You heard me right. It is also why so many high-ranked players just disappear in OWCs while some of the not-so-high ranked players consistently turn up.
The mappool is too easy, especially compared to last year. People have progressed A LOT since last year and this shouldn't happen, it should be the opposite. Not to mention that the tiebreaker is too damn easy compared to the rest of the maps... YOU CAN'T MISS ON THOSE MAPS, unless it's a totally random miss ANYONE can do during the match. Those maps won't judge your playing skill but your accuracy only, since everyone's gonna FC them (unless someone misses, but that'd be due to some completely random factors as lags or sth, the best players equal the the lower players all the same here). In our group we have Netherlands, Canada and Poland. How are those maps gonna distinguish 2 better teams out of those 3? It's just impossible, everyone's gonna FC them unless some spike happens or a random factor is involved (not to mention you gave HK a chance to actually fight with us with those picks). It shouldn't be like that. Also why are the same maps as last year already being picked? Caramel Heaven, Nevereverland, Yoiduki Maiuta, shinkaron. Didn't we have plenty of maps ranked this year that you could pick? Btw, Hidden picks are somehow the hardest maps out of all from the pool, no clue why. I strongly advise to revise these maps before the actual tournament and make them harder.
I don't know how many more times I have to emphasize the fact that a different philosophy has been used. It will start of easier and up harder. It won't be a barely existent curve anymore like the previous years. There's going to be a build up. A build up to live up with the hype of this tournament. It will become progressingly harder. The further you go in the tournament, the harder it will become. You worry about missing. Missing will always be a factor. It has litteraly nothing to do with the maps represented. It's either you lack the skill, you can't control your nerves or something outside your own has influence on your result (such as lag). Theses three factors have zero correlation with the difficulty of a beatmap. If a miss has high influence in the early stages, well, I have a pro tip for you. Don't miss. Consistency is a factor that should also be rewarding and it will be, relatively, more rewarding in this early stage.fartownik wrote:
The mappool is too easy, especially compared to last year. People have progressed A LOT since last year and this shouldn't happen, it should be the opposite. Not to mention that the tiebreaker is too damn easy compared to the rest of the maps... YOU CAN'T MISS ON THOSE MAPS, unless it's a totally random miss ANYONE can do during the match. Those maps won't judge your playing skill but your accuracy only, since everyone's gonna FC them (unless someone misses, but that'd be due to some completely random factors as lags or sth, the best players equal the the lower players all the same here). In our group we have Netherlands, Canada and Poland. How are those maps gonna distinguish 2 better teams out of those 3? It's just impossible, everyone's gonna FC them unless some spike happens or a random factor is involved (not to mention you gave HK a chance to actually fight with us with those picks). It shouldn't be like that. Also why are the same maps as last year already being picked? Caramel Heaven, Nevereverland, Yoiduki Maiuta, shinkaron. Didn't we have plenty of maps ranked this year that you could pick? Btw, Hidden picks are somehow the hardest maps out of all from the pool, no clue why. I strongly advise to revise these maps before the actual tournament and make them harder.
Caramel Heaven was used last year in the finals as a free mod. A map you claim to be ''so easy'' and yet it got all the way to the finals. That will not happen this year. When it comes to the other maps, every single one was used for a different mod bracket. And besides, if the map is good the map is good. Why favor something new over something old yet good? I think we've created a fine balance between newer and older maps. And I've already said before. I've litteraly played every single map in 2014 that I, according to the philosophy used this year, find acceptable in terms of difficulty. I don't think hidden is the hardest bracket at all. It simply shows that rarely anybody uses hidden only for mod usages. Everybody plays HR or DT (with perhaps HD as a secondary mod). Nobody plays HD only on a map that has patterns that could be deemed more difficult.
And dear god, ''strongly advising'' to revise an entire map list? I'm fine with you not agreeing with a certain path that has been set up this year, but completely revising the idea that has been set in motion to create a 'complete experience tournament' is ludacris.
lol totally agree, this mappool looks so easy D:Ace3DF wrote:
Maps look a lot easier to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if 99% of the players SS'd (or 1 100x off)
You say that the maps will go harder and harder, yes that's the point of you doing this. But you start off from a too easy "foot" already. The maps should've been harder to begin with, then you could start making them gradually harder, just like it was a year ago. Someone said that "consistency is a skill", of course it is but it shouldn't be forced as the main decider of who gets out of group and who doesn't, not "THIS" consistency. Btw, missing has nothing to do with the maps represented? Of course it has. You let the possibility of a tight match between a top tier country and a lower tier country to occur by doing such picks.
Also you talk about Caramel Heaven from last year when the FreeMod bracket was broken and the map selectors didn't exactly know what they should pick for those stages, thus ending up with random maps there at times.
Also you talk about Caramel Heaven from last year when the FreeMod bracket was broken and the map selectors didn't exactly know what they should pick for those stages, thus ending up with random maps there at times.
this mappool's garbage
The mappool promotes consistency over overall skill? Top seeded teams are at risk of being eliminated by low seeded teams, should it really be that way? Should a team considered to be the strongest really have a chance to lose in group stages because one of their members had an unlucky miss while the 7 other players went on to FC the map?GladiOol wrote:
Consistency is a factor that should also be rewarding and it will be, relatively, more rewarding in this early stage.
Just throwing thoughts to make sure you thought this through properly and not going with a "yolo lets do things different because i can" mentality. This just feels.. wrong.
I've play tested this already. I did not start off at the wrong foot. In the bigger lines, the map list is already complete. I know what difficulty will come next and I know what will come after. The banning phase and loser bracket were both suggested by me for this reason. They fit the philsophy. If they were not implemented I would not have done it this way.fartownik wrote:
You say that the maps will go harder and harder, yes that's the point of you doing this. But you start off from a too easy "foot" already. The maps should've been harder to begin with, then you could start making them gradually harder, just like it was a year ago. Someone said that "consistency is a skill", of course it is but it shouldn't be forced as the main decider of who gets out of group and who doesn't, not "THIS" consistency. Btw, missing has nothing to do with the maps represented? Of course it has. You let the possibility of a tight match between a top tier country and a lower tier country to occur by doing such picks.
Also you talk about Caramel Heaven from last year when the FreeMod bracket was broken and the map selectors didn't exactly know what they should pick for those stages, thus ending up with random maps there at times.
I agree that more ''tight'' matches might occur. But if you lose 3 times against a lower tier team, you lose because you are worse. I don't think this needs discussion. I've played the owc 3 times and every single map my team lost were because we simply played worse. The maps do not have a factor in this.
And why would the map selectors not know what to pick? It's a bracket where HD and HR are allowed, thus they pick maps that give the same experience and difficulty when played with HR and HD individualy.
win condition acc let's go
''Consistency is a factor that should also be rewarding and it will be, relatively, more rewarding in this early stage.''Azer wrote:
The mappool promotes consistency over overall skill? Top seeded teams are at risk of being eliminated by low seeded teams, should it really be that way? Should a team considered to be the strongest really have a chance to lose in group stages because one of their members had an unlucky miss while the 7 other players went on to FC the map?GladiOol wrote:
Consistency is a factor that should also be rewarding and it will be, relatively, more rewarding in this early stage.
- ''Oh that means he's saying that overall skill is of less importance!''
????
If you would have taken the slightest amount of time to even read what I have posted so far in this thread or even simply PM'd me through forums or in-game, you'd know by now this is not the case. You're reading my posts out of context and you're questioning that which I have already answered.Azer wrote:
Just throwing thoughts to make sure you thought this through properly and not going with a "yolo lets do things different because i can" mentality. This just feels.. wrong.
This.Azer wrote:
I really dislike the idea of starting off easy because all it does is give worse teams (to say it bruntly) more chances to eliminate teams that would crush them on a harder mappool.
For those who are thinking "well if the teams that are worse manage to beat the better ones, they deserve to win" I disagree. The maps listed seem to be fcable on a random try for almost anyone who is rank <2k. If you put two teams together, both consisting of players that are capable of fcing the maps, it will come down to whoever doesn't lose concentration for half a moment. Not who is a more skilled team which has better players.
All I'm saying is that with this map pool, it would be no surprise to me if a team averaging 5k pp beat a team which averages 6k pp, solely based on the map set. If harder maps were to be chosen, the higher ranked team would have a much much better chance of winning.
I believe the solution for you would be to skip this mappool and proceed to the mappool from the next stage, as (if I understood correctly) you have the next stage maps' picked already. This would basically move the difficulty 1 tick higher than it is right now and fix the problem.
It'd be great if you could actually answer politely and not be aggressive for no good reason
I agree with this.fartownik wrote:
I believe the solution for you would be to skip this mappool and proceed to the mappool from the next stage, as (if I understood correctly) you have the next stage maps' picked already. This would basically move the difficulty 1 tick higher than it is right now and fix the problem.
I really don't understand your problems here.
I mean to take the exemple of the last TWC, maps were picked following a difficulty curve.
In the group stages, there were really easy maps, and they became harder and harder. : In the end, only the best teams were still there. Why ? Because they are polyvalent and simply better.
If your team lose, you simply played worse. Even if the mappool is easy, there is NO WAY you can lose 4 times against an "inferior" team. Yeah you might lose one match because of a random miss blablabla, but for f*** sake : If you're better than your opponent, you WON'T LOSE.
I mean to take the exemple of the last TWC, maps were picked following a difficulty curve.
In the group stages, there were really easy maps, and they became harder and harder. : In the end, only the best teams were still there. Why ? Because they are polyvalent and simply better.
If your team lose, you simply played worse. Even if the mappool is easy, there is NO WAY you can lose 4 times against an "inferior" team. Yeah you might lose one match because of a random miss blablabla, but for f*** sake : If you're better than your opponent, you WON'T LOSE.
I like the fact that this mappool actually gives lower-skilled teams a chance to make an upset. Upsets are always nice to watch. Personally, when I look at a match between two teams, I am always rooting for the weaker team. If only the top teams get out of group stages every time, then... what's the point of group stages? Might as well start the tournament from the 1/8 finals.
Usually, higher teams look at the group stages just as something annoying that they are forced to endure and go through before business picks up in the later stages. Well, now they can't really allow themselves to underestimate the early stage of the tournament. Just like many people so far said, one random miss might decide the winner. And to me, as a viewer, that creates anticipation of not knowing what will happen. After all, it will be really boring to watch a match with the thought "Ugh, ok ok, I know the winner here, what's the point of the match, just get it over with".
And finally, just like Gladi said, if you lose 3 times to a supposedly weaker team, than than isn't luck... it means that the weaker team was actually yours.
Usually, higher teams look at the group stages just as something annoying that they are forced to endure and go through before business picks up in the later stages. Well, now they can't really allow themselves to underestimate the early stage of the tournament. Just like many people so far said, one random miss might decide the winner. And to me, as a viewer, that creates anticipation of not knowing what will happen. After all, it will be really boring to watch a match with the thought "Ugh, ok ok, I know the winner here, what's the point of the match, just get it over with".
And finally, just like Gladi said, if you lose 3 times to a supposedly weaker team, than than isn't luck... it means that the weaker team was actually yours.
You miss the point. Look at the teams from the "death groups", for example our group. There's no way those maps can distinguish the better ones from the lower ones, it will be luck/accuracy fights only.Arrival wrote:
I really don't understand your problems here.
I mean to take the exemple of the last TWC, maps were picked following a difficulty curve.
In the group stages, there were really easy maps, and they became harder and harder. : In the end, only the best teams were still there. Why ? Because they are polyvalent and simply better.
If your team lose, you simply played worse. Even if the mappool is easy, there is NO WAY you can lose 4 times against an "inferior" team. Yeah you might lose one match because of a random miss blablabla, but for f*** sake : If you're better than your opponent, you WON'T LOSE.
Eh, Gigo. Not even gonna comment on your post.
fartownik, I am just talking from a viewer's perspective. I know most players won't agree with me.
Ofc from viewer's perspective it'd be interesting, but it would be unfair from player's perspective.
f
I dont even think this would be good for the viewers, there are a lot of good songs which are hard, and people want to see crazy stuffartownik wrote:
Ofc from viewer's perspective it'd be interesting, but it would be unfair from player's perspective.