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SuperSweep - All of you is all of me

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Little
2,509 posts
Joined November 2012
Little

MrSergio wrote:

Hard:
  1. 00:15:986 (4) - pretty sure this is not the same thing as 00:14:299 (1,2,3) - so maybe change it a little? (I suggest a 1/1 slider instead) // 01:24:986 (4) - same It's the same to me because it's part of the same grouping of accented notes in the brass.
  2. 00:31:549 (5,6) - similar to above. Those 2 objects don't really fall on identical beats, hence it feels a bit meh to have them like that.
    Make 3 a 1/1 slider instead? These objects show the straight rhythm in the strings, since it contrasts with the 3/2 beat groupings in the brass earlier in the phrase and make nice transition.
  3. 00:39:236 (3) - I'd move this to x344 y244 to make sure the gap between 00:39:236 (3,4) - and 00:39:986 (5,6) - is not the same on the playfield, since it might be causing reading problems Moved (4) to reduce 1/2 beat distance spacing.
  4. 00:48:986 (1,2) - a repeat slider here would work better instead, since you literally skip 2 strong beats by placing them on slider ends: 00:48:799 - 00:49:174 - .
    With that slider repeat you sort of fix it without remapping it, but emphasis is really poor here for a diff that should still be fairly intuitive for players No, I'm keeping brass instrument 3/2 emphasis until the transition at the last two beats. It's consistent with the rest of the map.
  5. 01:11:861 (2,3,4) - again. Don't, and I say don't, put such sort of gaps relying on the fact players will read this, because they won't,
    not at this sort of difficulty at least. 01:12:424 (3) - make it x0 y148 perhaps You don't have to write in such an aggressive tone. Made it more readable.
  6. 01:53:299 (1) - please stack on next object instead. You totally throw away your emphasis here. The jump should go on the strong beat (01:53:299 - ) and not on the weak beat (01:53:486 - ) in comparison Stacked.
  7. 02:31:924 (6) - might want to add a NC No.
Thanks.
http://puu.sh/vIxG0/6ce4b2b7e2.zip
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
xxdeathx
Managed to update while my internet was up.

I meant that the whole section is intense until 02:26:299 (1) - because that's the downbeat of the next section which is calm.

And the last slider being a different sound doesn't mean it has to be mapped differently. I did try to put a circle there but didn't like how it sounded, and also didn't like how it played (liked how the 1/2 sliders were building up until the intense section ended).
Seijiro
osu! Alumni
3,438 posts
Joined April 2013
Seijiro
I'm just waiting on Rizia ans wcx to reply to qualify, in case it wasn't clear o.o
wcx19911123
3,862 posts
Joined June 2010
wcx19911123
MrSergio

MrSergio wrote:

wcx:
If you tell me {"quiet" and "heavy" drum beats} it makes no sense since it's contradicting itself.
Moreover, there is no drum beat whatsoever at 00:14:111 - so the point is invalid from the start :roll:
sorry my old words is a bit misleading. they're not heavy indeed, but they are not invisible either. those sounds can be hear clearly from 00:13:549 - to 00:14:205 - with 1/4 rhythms even they are actually quiet. the result is that I'm following something which obviously exists, I think this is never called as overmap.

Let me also add how by using 00:12:424 (4,1) - you literally focus the attention on the foreground instruments, so your switch to background instruments feels inappropriate at that point of the combo. You could do that more efficiently with a new Combo (hey, doesn't this sound similar to what I suggested in the screen? :thinking: )
sorry but I'm not sure what you means here.. if you think the new combo setting is misleading then I could fix that, or if not maybe you could explain again in more clear way

Anyway, your call. I would rather have a more logical reply tho.
And in regards of the second part: I wasn't pointing to any misleading thing or anything, just that you actually focused on that sound in a similar rhythm, so why isn't it the same everywhere? (don't give me the "variety" excuse, cause this song is not that long and it is repetitive itself, which makes "variety" not an option imo)
in fact I'm not focused on the same sounds in the 2 parts. the first I'm focused on the background quiet sounds(00:13:549 - to 00:14:205 - maybe they are drums, you can hear it carefully). the second part I'm focused on the loud and clear sound(01:25:924 - ). I didn't focused on the same thing at the 2 part at first(though they have same sounds in some tracks), so your point is a bit invalid imo. cuz I didn't handle the 2 parts in similar way so they could be different imo
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
xxdeathx
i really should be staying away from osu during my vacation in japan..

My Angel Rize has agreed to remove the finish
Seijiro
osu! Alumni
3,438 posts
Joined April 2013
Seijiro
ok, last thing to do :p

(slider tick rate to 2)
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
xxdeathx
is it necessary to make tick rates consistent across different guest difficulties if they have their own reasons for choosing tick rate 1?
Seijiro
osu! Alumni
3,438 posts
Joined April 2013
Seijiro
alright, it turns out I imagined a rule about slider tick rate being consistent across diffs (dunno why tho, sorry about that)

That aside, not sure what the reasons for those diffs are, but I believe it is connected with the intro, where long sliders are present:
your diffs decided to add the slider tick for a more intense rhythm, while the other 3 diffs (well, we might want to exclude the Normal from this since high slider ticks and low SV are meh) opted for a more calm feeling for that part.
The rest of the drain is mapped more or less the same way, so that was my only concern, which I can call minor myself.


I think we can finally get this going (I would have personally used slider tick 1 on all diffs, but that is personal and just for that first part anyway)


To clarify in case someone didn't follow the thread:
I was the one popping this set for something that later on was deemed not a problem at all, and as stated here (p/5997493) I can qualify right away, since the previous icon is still valid due to changes being minor.
Chaoslitz
Elite Mapper / Elite Storyboarder
2,307 posts
Joined November 2013
Chaoslitz
woah my first gd

gratz xD
Vivyanne
1,215 posts
Joined December 2013
Vivyanne
can u fix map desc pls :v
I Must Decrease
908 posts
Joined June 2013
I Must Decrease
[wcx's Extreme]
00:50:580 (2,2) - Why are you mapping a blue tick slider when there is literally no beat on the blue tick? This happens multiple times and I do not understand why this decision was made. This is basically wrong snap + overmap. These play terribly as they do not fit the music. Please see to fixing this.
Kyouren
5,583 posts
Joined October 2012
Kyouren
The source should be ノーゲーム・ノーライフ like previous map with used ノーゲーム・ノーライフ ?
Yuii-
2,503 posts
Joined July 2013
Yuii-

xxdeathx wrote:

is it necessary to make tick rates consistent across different guest difficulties?
Yes, slider tick rate works around based on the song, not with the map. In this case, STR needs to be set to 2 because of the amount of beats in between every 1/2 beat.

It would also be nice to mute the slidertails on every 3/4 slider because the usage of normal-hitnormal on them is extremely loud for what the mapper is trying to follow.

@wcx: 00:13:549 (2,3,4,5) - these are overmapped
This is kind of personal and I do understand that this is a very, very old difficulty, but there are a lot of inconsistent rhythms that make little to no sense with the background music. Would be nice if you could go over the difficulty and maybe reconsider some of them? (it's all over the map, hard to give you examples)
Enon
2,690 posts
Joined November 2012
Enon
LOL, I am here to celebrate it got qualified and I see it gonna something wrong...........
Stjpa
886 posts
Joined July 2013
Stjpa
Aim difficulty of Insane
Aim difficulty of Expert

As you can notice the Expert is pretty much like the Insane diff (or vice versa) just with a harder diff spike. That's not how spreads actually work to be fair. Also, there's as few difference in intensity / density so you really should fix some stuff here
Little
2,509 posts
Joined November 2012
Little
lol
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,802 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
well yeah, the improvised rhythms focusing on unsupported blue ticks is still not a great thing to do, even after 2 years. don't know how much detail is needed at this point, since the last two disqualifications and xexxar/yuii said everything already lol

also using the same sound sample for hitnormal and hitclap is ear destruction


you've got some other things to address too, so taking this down for now
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
xxdeathx
Thanks MrSergio for your assistance and nomination, but it looks like we aren't done yet. Please let me know what you think of the following.

All GDers have agreed to move to tick rate 2 so that it's consistent. I'll wait for wcx to respond to the posts addressed at his difficulty, though I can say:
00:13:549 (2,3,4,5) - is sure as hell not overmapped because at 25% playback speed I can hear 1/4 sounds starting weak and getting louder at every tick there, and I have apple headphones with 4% computer volume, 60% osu music volume, and 15% osu master volume.

There is no hitnormal in this mapset so I'm not sure why you guys are talking about one. Everything sounds fine to me unless ear destruction means something else to you.


I don't know how the graphs were generated or what I'm expecting to infer from them, but I don't need them to tell me the Insane and Expert diffs are similar—after all it is two difficulties of the same song by the same mapper (who tried to use the same style). As long as no gap between any two consecutive difficulties is too large, it shouldn't be an issue.

Gratz on 2k posts pishifat.
Yuii-
2,503 posts
Joined July 2013
Yuii-
normal-hitnormal is the sampleset used in wcx's difficulty during the Kiai. There is no normal-hitnormal.wav, it's the default hitsound that is being used.

Also, yes, those are overmapped. What you can listen with 25% playback speed is the same sound that can be heard throughout the entire song; but that's why we play with 100% volume, hence why your difficulty has only 1/2 patterns during that timestamp.
anna apple
1,245 posts
Joined March 2014
anna apple

Yuii- wrote:

normal-hitnormal is the sampleset used in wcx's difficulty during the Kiai. There is no normal-hitnormal.wav, it's the default hitsound that is being used.

Also, yes, those are overmapped. What you can listen with 25% playback speed is the same sound that can be heard throughout the entire song; but that's why we play with 100% volume, hence why your difficulty has only 1/2 patterns during that timestamp.
00:13:549 (2,3,4,5) - at 100% playback I can hear this sound VERY clearly
wcx19911123
3,862 posts
Joined June 2010
wcx19911123
Xexxar

Xexxar wrote:

[wcx's Extreme]
00:50:580 (2,2) - Why are you mapping a blue tick slider when there is literally no beat on the blue tick? This happens multiple times and I do not understand why this decision was made. This is basically wrong snap + overmap. These play terribly as they do not fit the music. Please see to fixing this.
I'm doing this is doing something like custom triple clicks, some of this kind of patterns might not follow song but it won't be hard to read/play at all. otherwise,
I don't think they they play bad but they play well imo. not following song not equals to playing bad imo. this works same as triples and I don't see any custom triples would make it play bad, only the bading using of them does..
Yuii-

Yuii- wrote:

@wcx: 00:13:549 (2,3,4,5) - these are overmapped
This is kind of personal and I do understand that this is a very, very old difficulty, but there are a lot of inconsistent rhythms that make little to no sense with the background music. Would be nice if you could go over the difficulty and maybe reconsider some of them? (it's all over the map, hard to give you examples)
this is not overmap cuz I'm following the sounds that obviously exists in the musc, you can listen to the background carefully. besides I don't think the rhythm is inconsistent, the song itself has a sudden high density rhythm and I just followed it. if the song changed its rhythm I don't see anything bad that I also change.
if I miss anything special in the song rhythm, the map might full of 1/2 rhythm, I think it's totally consistent but must be boring to play. so I don't like to do it
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
xxdeathx
I don't believe that's how overmapping is defined.

My normal-hitnormal sounds nothing like the normal-hitclap included with the beatmap. Why is it troublesome?

Also, could anyone suggest rhythms that wcx could use instead of his current ones?
I Must Decrease
908 posts
Joined June 2013
I Must Decrease

wcx19911123 wrote:

Xexxar

Xexxar wrote:

[wcx's Extreme]
00:50:580 (2,2) - Why are you mapping a blue tick slider when there is literally no beat on the blue tick? This happens multiple times and I do not understand why this decision was made. This is basically wrong snap + overmap. These play terribly as they do not fit the music. Please see to fixing this.
I'm doing this is doing something like custom triple clicks, some of this kind of patterns might not follow song but it won't be hard to read/play at all. otherwise,
I don't think they they play bad but they play well imo. not following song not equals to playing bad imo. this works same as triples and I don't see any custom triples would make it play bad, only the bading using of them does..
... I mean the nature of this game is a rhythm game. Deliberately ignoring the song and mapping clickable beats to things that don't exist rhythmically and creating overmapped triplets is not acceptable. If we allow this type of mapping we might as well just remove the requirement that maps need to be properly timed.

I am strongly advising that you change these overmapped beats that do not accurately reflect the song.
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet

Xexxar wrote:

... I mean the nature of this game is a rhythm game. Deliberately ignoring the song and mapping clickable beats to things that don't exist rhythmically and creating overmapped triplets is not acceptable. i mean, it's been seen as acceptable for years and years and even 6 days ago, i know we shouldn't use individual maps to defend a new map but a long-lasting concept in the community hasn't been dismissed in the last 6 days so you'll need a more compelling argument
If we allow this type of mapping we might as well just remove the requirement that maps need to be properly timed. pls try to avoid big exaggerated arguments like this, it doesn't rly add anything to your case and just makes both sides of the argument more annoyed (and i mean most ppl that do additive-style rhythming stuff do it bc they think it fits the song, while a mistimed map clearly wouldnt)

I am strongly advising that you change these overmapped beats that do not accurately reflect the song.
Gonna try to stay out of the argument as much as I can, but let's not just repeat the same "is extra notes bAd??" argument that's been happening for years and years and never went anywhere. Some people like it, others don't, and neither side's going to change their mind. The discussion will be much cleaner and faster by suggesting other rhythms you find more fitting.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,642 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
wcx's Extreme

For stuff like 00:50:299 (1,2) - You could try a rhythm like this. It'll make the blue tick clickable still, but also the white tick and other "strong" sounding notes. You still get to map your blue ticks (which imo exist, though very feint), but now you'll also map snares like 00:50:674 - to clickable notes too.
~

I think people aren't communicating the issue clearly... the blue tick isn't an overmap imo. But it sounds like an overmap because right now you're mapping the blue tick in a way where you ignore the white tick afterwards, and because the white tick is obviously a strong note, people attribute it to overmapping. You can argue that the blue tick exists in the music. I think your argument is valid. But you can't really argue that the white ticks like 00:50:674 - should be left unclickable... I don't think your argument for that is convincing.
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet
the bluetick 1/4slider rhythmthing is a fairly common rhythm especially in chinese mapping, it shows up in a lot of ways but im just gonna break down its usage in this map

So for stuff like 00:50:580 (2) - , it's still mapping the white tick with the sliderend, and the sliderbody gives a nice "snappy" feeling telling you to lift up on the white tick, and the liftup can be considered a nice emphasis for some. The following 3/4 clicking gap makes for a nice return to the basic drumbeat when clicking 00:50:861 (3) - , emphasizing that red tick a lot, which fits this song well since the strong violin is on that tick. And since the player naturally understands basic drumbeats, this rhythm is pretty easy to play, just play a 1/2 slider, then click a 1/4 slider like a triple, and then play another 1/2 slider in beat.

uh i hope that made sense
anna apple
1,245 posts
Joined March 2014
anna apple
argument 1: strong sounds should be clicked because that is the player input

argument 2: there is more to player input than just the applying pressure to a key, there is also relieving the pressure from the key and moving the cursor, which are active decisions done by a player to "play" a map.

what the fine is rhythm?? sounds in a song right?

what the fine is a map? an expression of the song??

what is the problem with the mapper consistently expressing the music through player input? I thought this was normal.
Last edited by anna apple , edited 1 time in total.
wcx19911123
3,862 posts
Joined June 2010
wcx19911123
oh well, I actually got what you mean now..
a kickslider start at a blue beat that emphasis the blue beat only but ignored the white beat on its end. in fact the main rhythm in the song is the white beats, so I'd better not doing this.
if this is what you means, I think I can fix it.
however if you mean the blue beat can't have any clickable objects because it's overmap, I don't agree with. this should be acceptable imo

edit: @Xexxar. maybe also @Monstrata
Last edited by wcx19911123 , edited 1 time in total.
Voxnola
729 posts
Joined May 2013
Voxnola
Dear bor,
..................... You've triggered me with one thing, two times. nys


oh and hi guuys, what's goin on in this thread? oh
Stjpa
886 posts
Joined July 2013
Stjpa

xxdeathx wrote:

I don't know how the graphs were generated or what I'm expecting to infer from them, but I don't need them to tell me the Insane and Expert diffs are similar—after all it is two difficulties of the same song by the same mapper (who tried to use the same style). As long as no gap between any two consecutive difficulties is too large, it shouldn't be an issue.
It is an issue when you are supposed to show a proper spread but two of your difficulties play exactly the same and have no difference whatsoever because 95% is the same due to same spacing emphasis and density. The Expert should be harder overall (for obvious reasons) and the SR also shows that it's supposed to be harder which isn't the case because only the 1-2-1-2 patterns are harder while the rest of the map is the same just with different patterning.
Kyouren
5,583 posts
Joined October 2012
Kyouren
Oh god, why the metadata check here is ignoring?
Stjpa
886 posts
Joined July 2013
Stjpa

KittyAdventure wrote:

Oh god, why the metadata check here is ignoring?
You are not even giving a valid source to your metadata suggestion...
Kyouren
5,583 posts
Joined October 2012
Kyouren
https://ngnl.jp
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/462896
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist?q=ノーゲーム・ノーライフ
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
xxdeathx
I wouldn't say the two play exactly the same since the insane is simpler and easier to read, but that's a moot point. If there are no difficulty gaps then it's irrelevant to a proper spread.
Stjpa
886 posts
Joined July 2013
Stjpa
Might as well delete Expert and buff the Insane then?
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
xxdeathx
Why the hell would I want to do that when what I have is completely fine and more difficulties are better than fewer?
Last edited by xxdeathx , edited 1 time in total.
I Must Decrease
908 posts
Joined June 2013
I Must Decrease
@wcx, there are some blue ticks that support clickables, but others that do not. I think Monstrata's suggestion will improve your map however, so that is somewhere to start.
wcx19911123
3,862 posts
Joined June 2010
wcx19911123
fixed some
osu file format v14

[General]
AudioFilename: No Game No Life - The Kings Plan.mp3
AudioLeadIn: 0
PreviewTime: 50205
Countdown: 0
SampleSet: Soft
StackLeniency: 0.7
Mode: 0
LetterboxInBreaks: 1
WidescreenStoryboard: 0

[Editor]
DistanceSpacing: 1.2
BeatDivisor: 4
GridSize: 8
TimelineZoom: 1.3

[Metadata]
Title:All of you is all of me
TitleUnicode:All of you is all of me
Artist:SuperSweep
ArtistUnicode:スーパースィープ
Creator:xxdeathx
Version:wcx's Extreme
Source:No Game No Life
Tags:ノーゲーム・ノーライフ NGNL ost original soundtrack insert song the king's plan kawaiwkyik chaoslitz cloudsplash16 wcx19911123 rizia little 細江慎治 佐宗綾子 江口孝宏 田中文久 Hosoe Shinji Sasou Ayako Eguchi Takahiro Fumihisa Tanaka
BeatmapID:537411
BeatmapSetID:228789

[Difficulty]
HPDrainRate:6
CircleSize:5
OverallDifficulty:8
ApproachRate:9.2
SliderMultiplier:1.6
SliderTickRate:2

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440,368,140299,6,0,L|424:288,1,80,4|0,0:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
409,227,140580,1,0,0:0:0:0:
400,187,140674,1,8,0:2:0:0:
208,16,140861,2,0,P|184:56|184:88,1,80
201,128,141142,1,0,0:0:0:0:
456,184,141330,1,0,0:0:0:0:
444,120,141424,6,0,P|412:100|368:104,1,80,8|0,0:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
96,168,141799,1,0,0:0:0:0:
208,344,141986,2,0,P|248:360|288:352,1,80,0|8,0:0|0:2,0:0:0:0:
469,247,142361,1,0,0:0:0:0:
409,227,142455,1,0,0:0:0:0:
348,208,142549,6,0,L|224:168,1,120
240,40,142924,2,0,P|264:96|264:120,1,80,8|0,0:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
112,344,143299,6,0,P|72:336|40:312,1,80,4|0,0:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
12,256,143580,1,0,0:0:0:0:
4,216,143674,1,8,0:2:0:0:
216,272,143861,2,0,P|256:280|296:272,1,80
344,232,144142,2,0,L|360:176,1,40
176,32,144424,2,0,L|192:120,1,80,8|0,0:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
228,352,144799,5,8,0:2:0:0:
56,156,144986,1,0,0:0:0:0:
292,192,145174,1,8,0:2:0:0:
88,288,145361,1,0,0:0:0:0:
288,40,145549,1,8,0:2:0:0:
464,224,145736,1,0,0:0:0:0:
160,208,145924,1,8,0:2:0:0:
408,104,146111,1,0,0:0:0:0:
384,312,146299,6,0,B|380:352|380:352|344:332|300:344|300:344|272:320,1,160,4|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
24,264,146861,2,0,B|56:280|56:280|96:264|128:280|128:280|128:308|144:328,1,160,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
344,208,147424,6,0,B|288:224|256:280|256:280|208:280,1,160,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
56,112,147986,2,0,B|112:96|160:128|160:128|136:144|128:168,1,160,2|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
260,300,148549,6,0,B|212:268|252:228|204:196,1,120,2|0,3:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
344,236,148924,2,0,L|304:244,1,40,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
428,172,149111,2,0,L|388:180,1,40,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
480,120,149299,6,0,B|446:90|400:104|400:104|360:92|352:52,1,160,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
176,120,149861,2,0,B|224:120|272:96|272:96|288:136|312:152,1,160,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
408,304,150424,6,0,B|304:272|304:272|280:296|256:296,1,160,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
96,200,150986,2,0,P|192:200|248:232,1,160,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
416,148,151549,6,0,P|352:180|320:228,1,120,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
296,292,151924,1,0,1:0:0:0:
248,56,152111,1,0,1:0:0:0:
I fixed all ticksliders start at blue beats with a heavy drum in the music.
the sliders should be fine now
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
Topic Starter
xxdeathx
How do you think about the revised difficulty?
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz

Yuii- wrote:

Also, yes, those are overmapped. What you can listen with 25% playback speed is the same sound that can be heard throughout the entire song; but that's why we play with 100% volume, hence why your difficulty has only 1/2 patterns during that timestamp.
I mean, he might not be able to hear it at 100% because the headphones hes using are a piece of shit and by no means representative of normal human hearing. Using HD800s, what are considered to be reference grade headphones, I can hear the 1/4 here at 100% playback every time without straining my ear.

It would make me really sad at the direction ranked mapping is headed in if mappers were discouraged from mapping the finer details of a song just because some people have extremely low quality headphones that bury it.

I don't disagree that things that can't be discerned while listening to the song at normal playback speeds probably don't warrant their own clickables but I also don't think you can make an objective guideline using this due to a variety of factors.

For additional perspective, as a musician in a large ensemble it is recommended that you try to focus on listening to a different "part" (collection of instruments) on every play-through of a piece to build a better understanding of the music and how you fit into it. For a quality piece of music you could listen to the same recording of it dozens of times and still hear new things. Since your perception of the music can change on a day to day basis and is dependent both on how trained your ear is and the audio equipment you are using there isn't enough consistency to provide any objectivity without being heavily restrictive.
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