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Learning HDHR

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RaneFire
I've actually been applying Jesse's ideology for improving my stream speed. Although I don't actually feel any pain because I use the correct posture, but my hand gets tired as fuck and sometimes my fingers just decide to stop working, and I try push them further before throwing in the towel. But despite all that, I've seen drastic improvements over the past few months, considering that I don't intentionally hurt myself.

Then again, this applies to building upon an already well-founded technique. On the maps I was playing, I didn't have problems with finger control (except when tired), trying to read or be accurate (not referring to the statistic, but the actual feeling for accuracy). These maps were only faster than what I am comfortable with, within reason of playability (I could theoretically hit every note). My only problem was speed and stamina so the brute force method is pretty effective in this case. If you're just going to hammer your keys without applying any thought, of course you won't see results. Your reading, accuracy and ability to interpret rhythms also develop with speed training, so they must be there in the first place.

HR is of course a similar thing, except you are forcing your mind to learn something, to be more accurate, precise, and read faster... and is of course built upon an already well-founded technique. I don't know how HDHR turned into stream speed? You don't need to hurt yourself to learn HR, but oh well.
darkmiz
I played HDHR for two years and still can't read AR10 streams
nrl

jesus1412 wrote:

Your evidence for your argument is actually less than mine, even though I'll accept that I may be wrong, you're incredibly hypocritical to say that "jesse doesn't have any idea" when I have case evidence as my reasoning. If my method didn't work in some way then I'd be slow as fuck, luckily I'm not and until someone comes out and says they stream better than me using what you view as the correct method I'll continue with my beliefs.
Case evidence? You have one case. That's significant enough to prove that your method doesn't guarantee bad results, but not much more than that. As for my argument, I have ten years of musical experience under my belt. I won't say that qualifies me as an authority on the subject, but since you've taken this discussion past "this is what I did and it seems to have worked" we're dealing with theory, and you don't have nearly enough evidence to make concrete theoretical claims. So I'm falling back on theory to explain my argument.

Let me say this again: pain doesn't do what you think it does.

You can push to the point of tiredness and beyond without feeling any pain. Pain comes from unnecessary strain, and if it's strong enough to be more noticeable than just a feeling of tiredness you're doing something wrong. Stamina may be purely physical, but speed comes from muscle control, and you don't build muscle control with pain. In fact, you go out of your way to avoid it.

B1rd wrote:

I find your statement pretty much completely false, if you want to improve from a biological aspect then pain is a prerequisite, no pain no gain. If you want to get flexible you have to stretch, which is painful. If you want good cardio you have to jog, or if you want to get strong you have to wear down your muscles until they can't continue, all of which is pain in a certain sense.
...
Your point about instruments is immaterial. Instruments, like the non-speed and stamina aspect of osu!, is almost completely mental. It's all about building up the neural pathways and whatnot.
Stretching is not painful. Jogging is not painful. Exhaustion is not the same thing as pain, and jesse has specifically stated that he's arguing for pushing past the point where that distinction occurs. In fact, "pushing past" is the wrong choice of words since pain isn't a natural extension of exhaustion. It's more like he's suggesting cross-grading to pain for some reason.

As for instruments, they aren't "almost completely mental" at all. I'm honestly floored that you could sincerely think that. Many instruments are far more physically taxing than osu!, and almost every instrument requires physical repetition at speeds similar to osu! that must be practiced just like streaming or single-tapping.
Topic Starter
In No Hurry
How did my post on HDHR turn into one about stamina and speed? wut?
nrl

In No Hurry wrote:

How did my post on HDHR turn into one about stamina and speed? wut?
Shh, just let it happen.
jesse1412

Narrill wrote:

I can see what you're saying but in my view without pain you'll never know how hard you need to push, if you don't know how to push yourself to the point of discomfort then you probably can't push yourself at all. The pain it really to show a person how much effort they actually need to use rather than expecting results from repetitive alternating that doesn't even phase them. The pain probably doesn't help you improve in itself but the new level of play you're attempting will help you improve, the uncomfortable "out of your league" feeling is just indicating that you've found a level of playing that will physically tax you to the point of improvement. Streaming 240+ is pretty much impossible without discomfort, if you never want to break into the highest speeds then that's fine, keep developing stamina, but you can't develop stamina if you don't already have the speed.
Topic Starter
In No Hurry
Uh... Sorry to interrupt, but should I be playing with NF on/off or does it not matter?
RaneFire

Narrill wrote:

In No Hurry wrote:

How did my post on HDHR turn into one about stamina and speed? wut?
Shh, just let it happen.
Welcome to G&R. Where you can find advice on things completely irrelevant to the topic title.

In No Hurry wrote:

Uh... Sorry to interrupt, but should I be playing with NF on/off or does it not matter?
Doesn't matter too much. Use NF if the HP drain of the map is high and is causing you to fail. If you are missing lots of notes and failing, you should probably play another map.

Narrill wrote:

You can push to the point of tiredness and beyond without feeling any pain. Pain comes from unnecessary strain, and if it's strong enough to be more noticeable than just a feeling of tiredness you're doing something wrong. Stamina may be purely physical, but speed comes from muscle control, and you don't build muscle control with pain. In fact, you go out of your way to avoid it.
I think the breakdown in communication is due to differing opinions on pain. I define pain as sharp, spontaneous and very much unwanted. I got this in the middle finger of my right hand, and it's why I stopped playing mouse-only altogether.

Pain as a build-up of exhaustion in the muscles... is just exhaustion perceived as pain as it continues to build up. If that's the pain jesse is referring to, it's fine.
Topic Starter
In No Hurry

RaneFire wrote:

In No Hurry wrote:

Uh... Sorry to interrupt, but should I be playing with NF on/off or does it not matter?
Doesn't matter too much. Use NF if the HP drain of the map is high and is causing you to fail. If you are missing lots of notes and failing, you should probably play another map.
Okay, thanks.
chainpullz
2 things:

1) The scientific process behind the building up of muscles involves first the breaking down of your current muscles by acids followed by a recovery period where your muscles grow back in such a way that you end up with more muscles than you started with.

2) In taekwondo we always trained in continuous sessions with no breaks even for water. There were probably many reasons for this though I'm not informed enough on the theory involved in the training regime to explain it.
Topic Starter
In No Hurry
I guess my HDHR thread has officially turned into one about how pain is good or bad.
nrl

jesus1412 wrote:

The pain it really to show a person how much effort they actually need to use rather than expecting results from repetitive alternating that doesn't even phase them.
My issue is claiming that that pain should be above and beyond mere exhaustion. Pain above and beyond mere exhaustion isn't pain due to exhaustion, and for that reason it's often detrimental.

RaneFire wrote:

Pain as a build-up of exhaustion in the muscles... is just exhaustion perceived as pain as it continues to build up. If that's the pain jesse is referring to, it's fine.
I agree. The ask question posted seemed to indicate a different sort of pain than this.
Drezi

Narrill wrote:

As for instruments, they aren't "almost completely mental" at all. I'm honestly floored that you could sincerely think that. Many instruments are far more physically taxing than osu!
As a musician myself with 12 years on the piano, I can say that you're totally right about straining your hands not being necessary to improve, and it really is to be avoided, when it comes to instruments.

It's also true that intruments can be physically taxing generally, however there might be something to it, that speed on intruments is mostly a mental thing, since I'm really as fast as it gets on the piano, and I'm still struggling with speed on osu. I have no idea why that is, but it could be that speed on instruments never reaches the point where it gets physically challenging, and it really could be mostly a mental thing, knowing what to play, and which fingers to use fast enough.

Or I might just suck at pushing buttons fast other than pianokeys..
winber1
nrl
winnie pls
award0707

In No Hurry wrote:

P.S. I'm fine with pains and potentially damaging my wrist if it means I can get better faster. (Seems stupid, I know, but Osu is the only thing I'm interested in right now, and I get good grades without giving much of a damn, so if I means I can get better at Osu in the long run then I'm fine with a little sacrifice)
I had a buddy who thought like this, trying to get his Squat up to 495lbs.

He took a trip to snap city and his squat is basically 0 now. No pain no gain, it's true, but only up to the point where it doesn't interfere with your training.
Kittles
You don't need and cant do hdhr until your like top 1000.
Ishkiz

pied wrote:

You don't need and cant do hdhr until your like top 1000.
What a silly and arbitrary restriction. One should play however they'd like to play, whichever mods that may be with.
Kittles

Ishkiz wrote:

pied wrote:

You don't need and cant do hdhr until your like top 1000.
What a silly and arbitrary restriction. One should play however they'd like to play, whichever mods that may be with.
Yeah it was probably unjust to generalize like that. But it's ambitious to think your going to get a top 50 hdhr score unless your very highly ranked.
nrl
I've been setting HDHR scores since like 2k. I got into the top 1k with HDHR scores. Don't talk about things you have no knowledge of.
Kittles

Narrill wrote:

I've been setting HDHR scores since like 2k. I got into the top 1k with HDHR scores. Don't talk about things you have no knowledge of.
Oh, that guy that does anything to provoke an argument... I picked a random number out of my ass. Except it happened to be marginally close to what you tried to refute me.
nrl
Stop picking random numbers out of your ass. It's perfectly fine to start working towards HDHR from like 5k up.
byfar
high ar is annoying guys.
otoed1

byfar wrote:

high ar is annoying guys.
[-Cloud-]
Low AR is even more annoying.
cheezstik


Guys, narrill isn't even a hdhr player, doesn't know what he's talking about, he's just a dirty DT farmer kekeke
byfar
dt isnt even double speed wtf.
Karuta-_old_1

byfar wrote:

dt isnt even double speed wtf.
No one would be able to DT those bpm 175/ TV size anymore if it really gets doubled considering how many -ms you can afford to make
byfar

[MY] yummy90 XP wrote:

byfar wrote:

dt isnt even double speed wtf.
No one would be able to DT those bpm 175/ TV size anymore if it really gets doubled considering how many -ms you can afford to make
my point was that double time name is misleading
cheezstik

byfar wrote:

my point was that double time name is misleading
Did you know that half time isn't actually half time, easy doesn't actually make the game easy, and there actually aren't hard rocks of any sort involved in playing HR?
byfar

cheezstik wrote:

byfar wrote:

my point was that double time name is misleading
Did you know that half time isn't actually half time, easy doesn't actually make the game easy, and there actually aren't hard rocks of any sort involved in playing HR?
searching osu on google led me to ohio state university. therefore the name osu is also misleading
[-Cloud-]
So basically, everything is wrong with this game.
byfar

[-Cloud-] wrote:

So basically, everything is wrong with this game.
yea. came here for hentai, got circle clicking game
[-Cloud-]

byfar wrote:

[-Cloud-] wrote:

So basically, everything is wrong with this game.
yea. came here for hentai, got circle clicking game
Not only. It's pretty much a hentai game. Just with backgrounds.
nrl
I put hentai in my hitcircles so I can fap while I dick wave. By the way, look at my rank. It's so big and awesome and it gets all the girls wet. Just fyi. Also it's bigger than yours. Also rekt.
cheezstik
It's clear to me now why people play mouse only.
byfar

cheezstik wrote:

It's clear to me now why people play mouse only.
when clearly tablet is ezier pp
byfar
also be sure to set fps limiter to unlimited, because low fps doing high ar is fucking awful
buny
The easiest way to learn AR10 now is to edit maps from between 9->10 or 8->9 +DT to 180-240 bpm maps
Topic Starter
In No Hurry
So it turns out I can read AR9.8 pretty decently. Almost got top 50 score HDHR on AR9.8, albeit it was a 4.04 star song.
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