Tom94 wrote:

Lust wrote:

According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward

I actually disagree. Personally I find the AR fits very well. In general it's a very subjective matter to talk about suitable ARs and I think should be left to the mapper as long as it's not too obviously out of order. Again, just my personal opinion. :p

I completely agree, raising the ar is unnecessary

there shouldn't be more than one unrank per map imo
what's the point of unranking a map and re-ranking it if you guys don't even bother to make sure everything is fixed

Tom94 wrote:

In general it's a very subjective matter to talk about suitable ARs and I think should be left to the mapper as long as it's not too obviously out of order.

^this

Tom94 wrote:
Lust wrote:
According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward


I actually disagree. Personally I find the AR fits very well. In general it's a very subjective matter to talk about suitable ARs and I think should be left to the mapper as long as it's not too obviously out of order. Again, just my personal opinion. :p


I completely agree, raising the ar is unnecessary

I think the opinion of players who are actually able to get a good play on this diff (like 97%+) have an opinion of higher value, and it seems that those players agree that the approach rate should be higher. Thats why I also think that the current ar (9.5) probably is too low.

Brazzers wrote:

Lust wrote:

[*]According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward

Your testers can't read medium object density then? I wanna see any of them clearing hard (3.5*) diffs with EZ

I was one of the testers, even if my opinion wasn't heavily considered. But I can tell you EZ has nothing to do with this. http://puu.sh/gifRW/36e4733e0e.jpg

I was one of those who said the AR was too low. Admittedly, I'm not used to this star rating on this AR, and I did tell them that. So it's just my own fault really, or so I believe at least.

Lust wrote:

According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward

what? that's ridiculous. AR10 is not going to work on this map at all and increasing it to 9.7 is just going to be a pointless change.

Tom94 wrote:

Lust wrote:

According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward

I actually disagree. Personally I find the AR fits very well. In general it's a very subjective matter to talk about suitable ARs and I think should be left to the mapper as long as it's not too obviously out of order. Again, just my personal opinion. :p

Agree

I have asked mapper to reduce spacing of that part but he insist that current one is better. I find some players to tset it and they think it is fine (since i cant pass that diff) My point is that different people will have different thoughts and like someone think it is fine someone doesnt think so. It is not that fair you give disqualify with such these kind subjective points. It would be better if you can disqualify this after doing some disscusion with mapper and then we can work more effective.

P.S I think current ar is fine

If someone is calling AR9.7 too low, then they need to learn to read.

It's not about someone being able to read certain ar better than some other ar, It's about a certain ar fitting a diff better than some other ar..

Honestly I feel that if you can't FC the map you can't leave a real opinion on it.

This narrows down our choices to 1 person who literally doesn't care that it is high od or ar 9.5 or hard to read in some places.

This map will have 6+ FC's by the end of the year (provided the map creator puts up with all the bullshit), the only difference between rrtyui and the rest will be the play count (2 vs 50)

The only reason I can find for this nonsense is that the QAT/BAT's are having some serious mental breakdowns concerning the number 7, like omg SEVEN STARS, WHAAAT THATS CRAZY, so they are all nervous and anxious about it for god knows what reason and have to compensate by making sure the map is even easier to read than it already is.

Why are people throwing a fit over a qualified map being disqualified? This is what the section is for and you're warned about it when downloading maps.

Don't want this to happen or don't want to be upset about stuff like this? Stay away from the Qualified section. It's as simple as that.

Also there are so many people talking out of their ass without knowing how the ranking process works it's sad.

-GN wrote:

Lust wrote:

According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward

what? that's ridiculous. AR10 is not going to work on this map at all and increasing it to 9.7 is just going to be a pointless change.

I disagree. Did you actually try it? AR10 makes it so much easier to read the cross-screen jumps. I mean, I don't understand why the mapper is hesitating to use AR10 when the map is already 7 stars, BPM of 220, and using x6.0-x7.0 distance jumps. I FC'd the hardest part in the second try with AR10, and I really do believe there are players like me who find the AR as the only obstacle that is preventing them from FCing. I doubt that there are people who cannot read AR10 at the skill-level where the diff was aimed to be played at. This isn't 2012 when AR10 was thought as a taboo. The mapper obviously thinks that the song deserves such extreme jumps, and yes it fits well; however, then, why not use an extreme AR? If the AR is kept at 9.5, the mapper is making the same mistake of rainbow dash, pluto, or trigger happy. I really hope you make the wise choice.

Lust wrote:

02:17:493 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - focuses too heavily on the right side of the screen. More movement around the playfield will allow for a more enjoyable pattern.

Everyone is bitching about the AR and I just want this to come true..

Purple wrote:

The only reason I can find for this nonsense is that the QAT/BAT's are having some serious mental breakdowns concerning the number 7, like omg SEVEN STARS, WHAAAT THATS CRAZY, so they are all nervous and anxious about it for god knows what reason and have to compensate by making sure the map is even easier to read than it already is.

Good. That's how it should be when a map like this gets ranked. It's not your typical anime OP with AR9 arbitrarily assigned to it that will fly through qualified without a problem. Maps like these should be scrutinized. The AR change is only one of the suggestions Lust listed. To me, this is more about mapping patterns which don't work well with the AR. There are two scenarios, you change the AR to something slightly higher or you change some of the patterns to be more intuitive. http://puu.sh/giomH/ec2427d303.png The jumps at 820x, although they are technically the hardest part of the map, they still play fine because they fit the AR quite well (not to say it's mapped perfectly, I think it's entirely reasonable to criticize how it focuses on the right side of the screen even though it is not as big of a deal). The QATs are not overreacting, look at the members of QAT. None of them are top players so they do the logical thing. They ask the top players. "Hey, we need some opinions on this map going through qualified as none of us are able to play the highest difficulty, mind helping us out?", and guess what? We all had problems with it. That difficulty isn't for 99% of the people posting in this thread right now, your opinion is honestly not appreciated and is detrimental to ensuring this map is done right. The only posts here I see worth following up on are Tom and GN's. Simple as that. walloftext

240 + is what calls for more ar 10 tbh AR 9.7 fits best with the map and it also makes calmer part of the map not look awful with it. AR 10 goes a bit too fast

ar9.7 is fine, but ar10 feels better imo
but rip map

Tom94 wrote:

Lust wrote:

According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward

I actually disagree. Personally I find the AR fits very well. In general it's a very subjective matter to talk about suitable ARs and I think should be left to the mapper as long as it's not too obviously out of order. Again, just my personal opinion. :p

I also disagree strongly. The AR is completely fine and raising it would make the map objectively worse to play and less challenging and fun.

It's not a mistake to use an AR that's not super high. It's a mistake to force everything to ar10 and 10.33 even though it plays fine at 9.5 and better players could do it at ar9 and take away the whole "reading" side of osu. 9.5 is completely fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSUBU6Bgxzc

come on, you already nerfed my favorite part^, it's no fun to learn to play 220bpm effectively instead of just relax playing if the whole fun parts of the map (jumps+spacing, reading) is neutered.

LexiaLovesU wrote:

AR 9.7 fits best with the map and it also makes calmer part of the map not look awful with it.

We know this is not mania so the AR being too high for the calmer part is a problem with no real solution.
Sure it might be true but what can you do? If you make it lower the hard parts will be too low AR..
I'd rather have the hard parts with correct AR than the calm parts with correct AR, if it means one part of the map being in uncomfortable to read regardless of the AR used. (and in this case I do not think AR10 would cause said problems at all)

Quite frankly i do not understand why this is'nt an easy simple decicion, taking into consideration there are no higher star rating maps ranked so i don't understand how anyone would question AR10 being too high.
Every top 500 player can play even higher AR than 10 and feel comfortable with it, so AR10 doesn't seem too extreme from in any aspect for this diff..

Sotajumala wrote:

LexiaLovesU wrote:

AR 9.7 fits best with the map and it also makes calmer part of the map not look awful with it.

We know this is not mania so the AR being too high for the calmer part is a problem with no real solution.
Sure it might be true but what can you do? If you make it lower the hard parts will be too low AR..
I'd rather have the hard parts with correct AR than the calm parts with correct AR, if it means one part of the map being in uncomfortable to read regardless of the AR used. (and in this case I do not think AR10 would cause said problems at all)

Quite frankly i do not understand why this is'nt an easy simple decicion, taking into consideration there are no higher star rating maps ranked so i don't understand how anyone would question AR10 being too high.
Every top 500 player can play even higher AR than 10 and feel comfortable with it, so AR10 doesn't seem too extreme from in any aspect for this diff..

It's not too extreme, but simply maxing out the AR as high as reasonable people can react for every single map removes a lot of depth from the map

It's not too extreme, but simply maxing out the AR as high as reasonable people can react for every single map removes a lot of depth from the map

Im not saying the AR should be as high as possible, I'm saying that I think AR10 is the best AR for this diff.

JappyBabes wrote:

Purple wrote:

The only reason I can find for this nonsense is that the QAT/BAT's are having some serious mental breakdowns concerning the number 7, like omg SEVEN STARS, WHAAAT THATS CRAZY, so they are all nervous and anxious about it for god knows what reason and have to compensate by making sure the map is even easier to read than it already is.

Good. That's how it should be when a map like this gets ranked. It's not your typical anime OP with AR9 arbitrarily assigned to it that will fly through qualified without a problem. Maps like these should be scrutinized. The AR change is only one of the suggestions Lust listed. To me, this is more about mapping patterns which don't work well with the AR. There are two scenarios, you change the AR to something slightly higher or you change some of the patterns to be more intuitive. http://puu.sh/giomH/ec2427d303.png The jumps at 820x, although they are technically the hardest part of the map, they still play fine because they fit the AR quite well (not to say it's mapped perfectly, I think it's entirely reasonable to criticize how it focuses on the right side of the screen even though it is not as big of a deal). The QATs are not overreacting, look at the members of QAT. None of them are top players so they do the logical thing. They ask the top players. "Hey, we need some opinions on this map going through qualified as none of us are able to play the highest difficulty, mind helping us out?", and guess what? We all had problems with it. That difficulty isn't for 99% of the people posting in this thread right now, your opinion is honestly not appreciated and is detrimental to ensuring this map is done right. The only posts here I see worth following up on are Tom and GN's. Simple as that. walloftext

I actually didn't realize you or jesus1412 constitute TOP PLAYERS that are known for doing AMAZING THINGS in this game like 7-8 stars maps such as this one. IMO, if the QATs need the input of someone else because a map is too hard for them (fair enough), they should seek people that are known to FC maps of similar difficulty, and in this case, that means rrtyui, hvick, DH, WWW, HDHR, thelewa, and a few others. If they can't find anyone who can FC this song and speak english, they have to do the translation work themselves, it's that simple.

What's interesting is that your post essentially confirms a new ranking rule that says that for a map to be ranked, it has to be easy enough for rrtyui (AKA best player) to FC it, which is just completely unnecessary TBH. There's nothing wrong with ranking a map that noone can FC at the moment, the game is for fun to be had, not for pathological perfectionism.

Sotajumala wrote:

It's not too extreme, but simply maxing out the AR as high as reasonable people can react for every single map removes a lot of depth from the map

Im not saying the AR should be as high as possible, I'm saying that I think AR10 is the best AR for this diff.

I think 9.3 is the best AR for second gonkanau but i can see why some would want to play it at 9 or approaching 10 (i'm just too bad to read it well at ar9)

Just to be clear, i agree that hard to read = bad. Hard to read as in readability issues - stuff stacked badly, very confusing patterns for no reason. However in this case, it's very simply put:

"There's too many circles on the screen at once for me to handle, make it easier" and i don't like that at all. The map plays fine and anybody, anybody at all who plays at a high level and has developed reading skills can go into it on their first play without a hitch.

-Aeryn- wrote:

I also disagree strongly. The AR is completely fine and raising it would make the map objectively worse to play and less challenging and fun.

Can you explain how it is objectively worse? Because you think so?
Less challenging? AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

Kheldragar wrote:

There's no such thing as fun in Osu.

Can we not digress?

Can you explain how it is objectively worse? Because you think so?
Less challenging? AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

Insactly, AR is chosen for the map, not the players.

Lust wrote:

1. According to many, the AR is just too low for the patterns you implemented. AR9.7 or even AR10 would make the play a lot smoother and inevitably solve issues on some patterns that were awkward
   This is based on personal opinion, I think it is good as it is and it is fun to play even though I can't pass it. And why increasing the AR just to make it easier to FC for a handful of people. Those who are able to FC this map I guess are in the top 200 and those players should be able to read lower AR without problems. And if not they gotta learn it. It doesn't justify the unrank in my opinion.
   
2. 02:14:220 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3) - After internal discussion and various testplays, we have come to the conclusion that this section has not been lowered in difficulty the way we were hoping. Lowering the spacing is still recommended. Also, we believe that the patterns can be made a lot more intuitive.
   Recommend? So it's optional and doesn't justify the unrank too. I know the section is hard, but it is fun. The map and the section is already very good (at least compared to other maps getting ranked nowadays) and doesn't really need to be "more intuitive" while risking it to be less fun or different at all.
   
3. 02:17:493 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - focuses too heavily on the right side of the screen. More movement around the playfield will allow for a more enjoyable pattern.
   Wow, too much circles at the right, I could almost start crying. Seriously... This is a slight drift to the right for a few seconds. That doesn't justify a unrank at all and it looks like you were desperately searching for small flaws to justify it. Is the map now unrankable because of that? That's how the map is, it's not less fun or less FCable because of that.
   
4. 01:56:220 (7,2) - This overlap (as mentioned by jesus1412 and pointed out in various testplays) has been known to cause readability issues. Please try to avoid this.
   Have seen way worse in recently ranked maps.

It's just sad, why don't you just rank the map and let people have fun with it. Some of the top FC it and those who can't need to try harder. It's that simple.
I haven't covered the additional points but the reasons for the unrank are either based on personal opinions or just marginal things. This is also caused by the pressure on the QAT because they don't have such a 7 star map with that kind of popularity everyday so they want to make sure to make it perfect. But this is ending in a mess while other maps which don't have that much attention get ranked with some flaws or unusual pattern. Ranking this map which is good in many people's opinion would have been the better choice. These are minor flaws or opinions and maps with worse get through the process of ranking. If this would have got through, nobody would have questioned your abilities as QAT. There wouldn't have been many people complaining about too low AR or the pattern being a bit at the right. You're creating the problems on your own.
I could go on even more but I'm tired and I need to go to sleep now. Good night.

Purple wrote:

I actually didn't realize you or jesus1412 constitute TOP PLAYERS that are known for doing AMAZING THINGS in this game like 7-8 stars maps such as this one. IMO, if the QATs need the input of someone else because a map is too hard for them (fair enough), they should seek people that are known to FC maps of similar difficulty, and in this case, that means rrtyui, hvick, DH, WWW, HDHR, thelewa, and a few others. If they can't find anyone who can FC this song and speak english, they have to do the translation work themselves, it's that simple.

What's interesting is that your post essentially confirms a new ranking rule that says that for a map to be ranked, it has to be easy enough for rrtyui (AKA best player) to FC it, which is just completely unnecessary TBH. There's nothing wrong with ranking a map that noone can FC at the moment, the game is for fun to be had, not for pathological perfectionism.

Jesse has FCd Mendes DT (6.92), Native Faith DT (7.32) and almost TearVid DT (6.94). And I have that shitty Airman score l0l. If your argument is that if you are not someone who does not have an FC on a 7* map you can not accurately perceive problems, not only do you invalidate every single one of your posts because you can't FC a 7* map, but you also admit you don't know how difficult this map actually is. This pales in comparison to something like Freedom Dive and Wahrheit DT even though the star ratings are incredibly similar. There's no need to get all upset because I said you can't play this properly and try and put Jesse and I down as people that don't know what we're talking about. Nowhere in my post did I imply anything about this map being impossible to FC, considering that rrt even FCd the previous version of this which was more difficult (although it had a lower star rating) I don't even know why you wrote that because it is already easy enough for him. Also, it's not about 'striving for pathological perfectionism' but moving away from the mentality that is being content with mediocrity.

Bit off topic but whatever, I don't understand how a mapper trying to get something ranked (ESPECIALLY a 7 star map) would be able to cry about 'oppressing creativity' and such. If you're trying to make the map official and the players the map is directed at find flaws with it, you take them heart and change it. You don't refuse them using bullshit explanations as to why your way of doing things is superior and they clearly have no idea what they're talking about. That's just stroking your own ego and if that's the mindset you have, keep your shit in the graveyard. Not that Awaken has done this yet but we'll see.

JappyBabes wrote:

You don't refuse them using bullshit explanations as to why your way of doing things is superior and they clearly have no idea what they're talking about. That's just stroking your own ego and if that's the mindset you have, keep your shit in the graveyard. Not that Awaken has done this yet but we'll see.

^this.

Purple wrote:

JappyBabes wrote:

Good. That's how it should be when a map like this gets ranked. It's not your typical anime OP with AR9 arbitrarily assigned to it that will fly through qualified without a problem. Maps like these should be scrutinized. The AR change is only one of the suggestions Lust listed. To me, this is more about mapping patterns which don't work well with the AR. There are two scenarios, you change the AR to something slightly higher or you change some of the patterns to be more intuitive. http://puu.sh/giomH/ec2427d303.png The jumps at 820x, although they are technically the hardest part of the map, they still play fine because they fit the AR quite well (not to say it's mapped perfectly, I think it's entirely reasonable to criticize how it focuses on the right side of the screen even though it is not as big of a deal). The QATs are not overreacting, look at the members of QAT. None of them are top players so they do the logical thing. They ask the top players. "Hey, we need some opinions on this map going through qualified as none of us are able to play the highest difficulty, mind helping us out?", and guess what? We all had problems with it. That difficulty isn't for 99% of the people posting in this thread right now, your opinion is honestly not appreciated and is detrimental to ensuring this map is done right. The only posts here I see worth following up on are Tom and GN's. Simple as that. walloftext

I actually didn't realize you or jesus1412 constitute TOP PLAYERS that are known for doing AMAZING THINGS in this game like 7-8 stars maps such as this one. IMO, if the QATs need the input of someone else because a map is too hard for them (fair enough), they should seek people that are known to FC maps of similar difficulty, and in this case, that means rrtyui, hvick, DH, WWW, HDHR, thelewa, and a few others. If they can't find anyone who can FC this song and speak english, they have to do the translation work themselves, it's that simple.

What's interesting is that your post essentially confirms a new ranking rule that says that for a map to be ranked, it has to be easy enough for rrtyui (AKA best player) to FC it, which is just completely unnecessary TBH. There's nothing wrong with ranking a map that noone can FC at the moment, the game is for fun to be had, not for pathological perfectionism.

I actually stated that I don't feel good enough to comment on most of the map but to say that someone who can almost FC airman isn't good enough to pass judgement on this? I agree we should "ask rrtyui or hvick" but they're not interested in discussing it so we're doing the best we can by asking other people.#67 Xytox, #6 isokasapupuja, #41 jappybabes, #28 alumetorz, #178 omgforz, #34 kearnen, how many more do you want?

ah, so less than 20 combo off an FC of airman completely invalidates his opinion

looking forward to seeing you fc 7star+ nomod maps in the near future :­)

Purple wrote:

rachel wrote:

are you actually legitimately flaming a top 50 player for not being considered a "top player" when you're barely in the bottom half of the top 10k yourself

dude almost has a fucking airman fc, is that not good enough for you?

It's not a FC, and he himself knows he's not a top player as I described (yet), if he chooses to feel offended, then really that's not my doing. I do admit I find it surprising to see someone play a map that is way harder to read than this 900+ times and see him complain about pattern readability here. I do want to know the list of people who played this map on behalf of the QAT because I can almost guarantee that the players I mentioned in my previous post wouldn't have had a problem with readability on this map.

Broccoly wrote:

Can you explain how it is objectively worse? Because you think so?
Less challenging? AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

Even if the AR setting's intent purpose was to accommodate players and improve map readability (I don't agree with that), it's still a matter of preference, some people like AR10 and others prefer lower, and in this one case OP might have chosen something that is not popular among the majority of players and I think the QAT should always respect that decision as long as it's not extreme, like AR8 or something.

if, according to you, someone who has been in the top50 consistently for the past 3 years or so is not good enough to determine if this map plays well or not (which is laughable at it's own). how can you even have the nerves to think that you do?

Broccoly wrote:

AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

Isn't that somewhat ironic? I, an 8k rank trash player, could almost pass the map on its current setting because it's so easy to read (I got past the solo part and choked in the end of the last chorus and failed ). On AR10 I don't stand a chance, because only someone really good can read AR10 well.

It's fine how it is. It'd probably be fine as low as AR9 too, but whatever it is now, 9.5 or whatever, is perfectly easy to read.

could almost pass the map

Think this explains broccolys point pretty well LMAO, besides i think even if you would have passed it would not have a been a gloriously awesome play.

Sotajumala wrote:

could almost pass the map

Think this explains broccolys point pretty well LMAO, besides i think even if you would have passed it would not have a been a gloriously awesome play.

My point is that most people who find the map playable would stand less of a chance on AR10. Changing it to AR10 just because a few people have conditioned themselves to only be able to play AR10 and nothing else is stupid.

"Changing it to AR10 just because a few people have conditioned themselves to only be able to play AR10 and nothing else is stupid."

Youre mistaking being able to play AR10 with playing this map rather on AR10 than a on a lower AR. They are not the same thing.

If anyone cares about my opinion I just want to say approach rate should be decided only by map creator without any objections, as he is the one who is making art and it is up to him how it is going to look like. Making it ranked of course needs approval, but as for me good timing and FCable set of notes is all that should be checked. Anything on top of it I consider limiting new horizons.

PS. I love old maps.

woof

also this map should be AR9

Broccoly wrote:

Can you explain how it is objectively worse? Because you think so?
Less challenging? AR should not be used to challenge players; it should be used accordingly to the patterns and to guide players to clearly read what they are hitting.

In that case, AR should be a lot higher on a lot of ranked maps and a lot lower on a lot of other ranked maps. A lot of the basis of HR mod, even, is challenging people to read a very low object density (150-170bpm ar10 anyone?)

I doubt there's a "fitting" approach rate for this. It seems like this is being dictated more by the userbase's comfort than any other standard.

In that case, AR should be a lot higher on a lot of ranked maps and a lot lower on a lot of other ranked maps. A lot of the basis of HR mod, even, is challenging people to read a very low object density (150-170bpm ar10 anyone?)

I don't think anyone should conclude the fact the hr exist in thinking what AR they should use..

keep calm and let the mapper answer okey?