+1, I don't understand why the dota / starcraft fanboys that say league takes no skill don't just get 4 of their friends with the same opinion and go pro, it's a pretty high salary as it has one of the biggest e-sports scenes.Riince wrote:
leagues difficulty works the same as osu, incredibly easy at lower levels, very hard at higher ones.buny wrote:
look at LoL tho
forum
Poor self esteem in this game.
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the internet is a very serious place
A small, but very important, fix.chainpullz wrote:
Narrill picked up a tablet and magically went from a 2k playcount shit tier player to a 16k playcount top 1000 master of the HD+HR. True story. Take notes.
it must be really nice to be able to easily surpass people who try harder than you just with natural talent.
It's great. I'm totally gonna take over the world and oppress everyone with less natural talent than me.
O.o
O.o
Most of the time it's because League has less real time things to do than Starcraft/Dota. Let's say lol doesn't have the deny mechanic, most people on the lol forums will say that it is a stupid mechanic by logic and it makes the game more passive, but on the other hand it makes the game more skill dependent since you have to worry about last hitting AND denying AND harassing at the same time. Next we have lol's mana pools a.k.a energy etc. Some people don't accept the fact that lol is more action oriented than dota or hon and thus it has lower mana costs and very fast regen times in comparison to low mana pools and high mana costing skills in dota or hon. Then you have lol's forest/jungle buffs and etc. I would say that people hate on lol because it forgives mistakes a lot better than dota/hon. In the other two games you have to be near perfect to win a game although lol takes quite a lot of skill to win in higher rankings like platinum or diamond. Lol's learning curve is a lot better than dota's since in dota everything is thrown at you at once. If we were to get more in depth into the meta of both games action vs passive strategy then you can notice that league has A LOT less disables/hexes/slows/stuns etc. than dota. Since in dota nearly every hero has some kind of disable you can get pretty badly destroyed if you play bad but of course there are thinks like BKB which give magic immunity. Whilst league's champions have scaling magic and physical damage from items as + x bonus to the skill damage and in dota's players eyes allow for some absurd 1 second burst downs that make absolutely no sense, but when you think about it lol doesn't have any way of locking a person down so the only way to kill him is by just throwing an absurd amount of damage in a short amount of time at your target.cheezstik wrote:
+1, I don't understand why the dota / starcraft fanboys that say league takes no skill don't just get 4 of their friends with the same opinion and go pro, it's a pretty high salary as it has one of the biggest e-sports scenes.
TL;DR People who play dota think that lol's has an easier learning curve and is less complex thus they say that it is inferior. People that play lol will say that dota is overly complex and too hard and not fun to get into therefore it sucks.
It's not dota/starcraft looking down on league, it's dota looking down on league and starcraft looking down on everything. And when you break it down, they're all right in a relative sense; I can't really speak to dota/league, but MOBAs as a whole are just simplified RTSs, they don't hold a candle to starcraft (if I had to guess, I'd say league's popularity is actually due in large part to this relative simplicity). It's disingenuous to tell people to "just go pro" because success within the game has nothing to do with the complexity of the game and everything to do with the skill of the other players in the playerbase.cheezstik wrote:
+1, I don't understand why the dota / starcraft fanboys that say league takes no skill don't just get 4 of their friends with the same opinion and go pro, it's a pretty high salary as it has one of the biggest e-sports scenes.
League and Dota mostly have different focuses. You can argue all you want about surface complexity but it's more interesting to look at the effects of surface complexity on the rest of the game. This is a very intricate discussion and I don't care to really spend much time analyzing things at the moment so I'm pretty much going to leave it at that.FlyingKebab wrote:
Most of the time it's because League has less real time things to do than Starcraft/Dota. Let's say lol doesn't have the deny mechanic, most people on the lol forums will say that it is a stupid mechanic by logic and it makes the game more passive, but on the other hand it makes the game more skill dependent since you have to worry about last hitting AND denying AND harassing at the same time. Next we have lol's mana pools a.k.a energy etc. Some people don't accept the fact that lol is more action oriented than dota or hon and thus it has lower mana costs and very fast regen times in comparison to low mana pools and high mana costing skills in dota or hon. Then you have lol's forest/jungle buffs and etc. I would say that people hate on lol because it forgives mistakes a lot better than dota/hon. In the other two games you have to be near perfect to win a game although lol takes quite a lot of skill to win in higher rankings like platinum or diamond. Lol's learning curve is a lot better than dota's since in dota everything is thrown at you at once. If we were to get more in depth into the meta of both games action vs passive strategy then you can notice that league has A LOT less disables/hexes/slows/stuns etc. than dota. Since in dota nearly every hero has some kind of disable you can get pretty badly destroyed if you play bad but of course there are thinks like BKB which give magic immunity. Whilst league's champions have scaling magic and physical damage from items as + x bonus to the skill damage and in dota's players eyes allow for some absurd 1 second burst downs that make absolutely no sense, but when you think about it lol doesn't have any way of locking a person down so the only way to kill him is by just throwing an absurd amount of damage in a short amount of time at your target.cheezstik wrote:
+1, I don't understand why the dota / starcraft fanboys that say league takes no skill don't just get 4 of their friends with the same opinion and go pro, it's a pretty high salary as it has one of the biggest e-sports scenes.
TL;DR People who play dota think that lol's has an easier learning curve and is less complex thus they say that it is inferior. People that play lol will say that dota is overly complex and too hard and not fun to get into therefore it sucks.
The only other thing I would like to mention is that a less punishing system is also a less rewarding system for the other side. This requires players to consistently outplay their opponents to acquire a substantial lead as opposed to snowballing off a single good play. Riot is actively trying to balance the game to keep snowballing at a very controlled level and I personally agree with their philosophy. It should be possible for a player to obtain a substantial lead over their counterpart, but it should require constant effort to maintain and grow allowing the other side reasonable opportunities to turn things around before it's too late.
it was a joke, calm the fuck down people
Well I tried playing DOTA once, the difficulty definitely comes from a different mechanic than the one in league. It was awkward as fuck to play, using a skill costs half my mana bar, and so many items were op as fuck. The difficulty comes from the game itself, whereas in league, the difficulty comes from other people's mechanical skill. I doubt we'll be seeing mlg 420 faker zed outplays in dota, cos there aren't any to be made, that kinda stuff only happens in league. An outplay in dota probably consists of buying an op item to counter their not as op item, or not using more than 1 skill so you don't run out of mana.
Tl;dr lol has more mechanics to do with aiming / reflexes / prediction
Tl;dr lol has more mechanics to do with aiming / reflexes / prediction
You clearly haven't seen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt9X8enr1kQ
Or in when s4 in TI4 dodged a stun coming from an invisible player despite having zero warning. Or look at heroes like meepo, invoker, puck, pudge, etc.
Dota mechanics and gameplay is more complex overall. There is a lot more flexibility in laning, you aren't forced into any specific laning arrangement, idk. Most people who say that Dota is a worse game haven't played Dota before. I've actually played league, and most heroes when compared to Dota are quite generic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt9X8enr1kQ
Or in when s4 in TI4 dodged a stun coming from an invisible player despite having zero warning. Or look at heroes like meepo, invoker, puck, pudge, etc.
Dota mechanics and gameplay is more complex overall. There is a lot more flexibility in laning, you aren't forced into any specific laning arrangement, idk. Most people who say that Dota is a worse game haven't played Dota before. I've actually played league, and most heroes when compared to Dota are quite generic.
are you serious?cheezstik wrote:
An outplay in dota probably consists of buying an op item to counter their not as op item, or not using more than 1 skill so you don't run out of mana.
how can you make a hypothesis when it's painfully obvious you haven't even touched the game? You're like the media trying to make a coverage on video games without the reporter even knowing the basis.
because after the initial heroes that were about 70% copies of dota's heroes, every other hero will be built on the same concept; skillshot skillshot skillshot. this also hammers into the mentality of the player that most of the skill in moba games is simply skillshotfelicitousname wrote:
You clearly haven't seen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt9X8enr1kQ
Or in when s4 in TI4 dodged a stun coming from an invisible player despite having zero warning. Or look at heroes like meepo, invoker, puck, pudge, etc.
Dota mechanics and gameplay is more complex overall. There is a lot more flexibility in laning, you aren't forced into any specific laning arrangement, idk. Most people who say that Dota is a worse game haven't played Dota before. I've actually played league, and most heroes when compared to Dota are quite generic.
i mean, that's cool and all that you have to click the ground to aim your shit, but it's no different in dota other than a few target spells where most (if skillful) can be dodged
simple games can be played competitively. Just because it's competitive doesn't mean it's not easier; having competition simply means that there is a population to compete against.
though mechanically speaking, dota is a lot more advanced because it allows more maneuverability.
towers are so strong in lol that it stops early game tower dives, basically EVERY game consists of 1/1/2 with a jungler
creep denying makes the lane more competitive as an alternative to zoning people
lane equilibrium doesn't even exist in lol
jungle juking? what's that? only got bushes m8
mana regen is off the charts, no need for mana control
free wards, teleport and no courier
could list a lot more, but the point is, is that even IF it's competitive, does not mean that it can't be easier than said game.
Ok, now compare that play to one like this play, one of the world's best plays ever imo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMIDWZdJb3wfelicitousname wrote:
You clearly haven't seen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt9X8enr1kQ
Or in when s4 in TI4 dodged a stun coming from an invisible player despite having zero warning. Or look at heroes like meepo, invoker, puck, pudge, etc.
Dota mechanics and gameplay is more complex overall. There is a lot more flexibility in laning, you aren't forced into any specific laning arrangement, idk. Most people who say that Dota is a worse game haven't played Dota before. I've actually played league, and most heroes when compared to Dota are quite generic.
Or a more recent one (slightly more flukey and a bit more of a misplay on the other guys side): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKqM3Vodw9A
Tell me which one took more reflexes, reaction, and prediction to do out of these and your dota clip?
In the first clip, faker reached a point where taking any further damage from ryu would be enough to kill him, so he dodged all auto attacks and abilities while doing enough damage to kill ryu, and survive himself.
In the second clip, xpeke is ambushed while farming. He dodges the second ult and w proc from dade by using his untargetability, and (accidentally) autoattacks the golem once, which left it low enough so he could just kill it and dade with the same shuriken, and the heal from killing the golem only just saved him.
Meanwhile, in your clip, the guy dodged an spell with an ability that makes him untargetable; a single spell..... This is something that every bad yi player in gold can regularly do on league, the fact that you find this impressive proves my point here.
Dota isn't a worse game, more of the difficulty just comes from the game itself, rather than other players. The simpler design allows for better mechanical outplays like this.
if you're going to compare plays, then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDaJes0T1Ig
dota 1: https://www.youtube.com/user/WoDotA
dota 2: https://www.youtube.com/user/DotaCinema
of course most of them are made in pubs, but you still need to be incredibly high skilled to pull most of the things done in these clips
dota 1: https://www.youtube.com/user/WoDotA
dota 2: https://www.youtube.com/user/DotaCinema
of course most of them are made in pubs, but you still need to be incredibly high skilled to pull most of the things done in these clips
Yeah that play was impressive, but really, the play was activating an item and stealing a skill to counter the activated items and skills... Sure, it would be hard to decide to do that in such a tight spot / situation like that, but that play was knowledge and decision making, not reflexes / reaction / aiming. I didn't say dota takes no skill, I just said it takes a different type of skill, the skill I prefer less to league skill.buny wrote:
if you're going to compare plays, then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDaJes0T1Ig
dota 1: https://www.youtube.com/user/WoDotA
dota 2: https://www.youtube.com/user/DotaCinema
of course most of them are made in pubs, but you still need to be incredibly high skilled to pull most of the things done in these clips
http://youtu.be/See8DWlZI8s?t=30s
He dodges a stun from an invisible player. No reflexes? Also, dodging the ultimate from Lina is a lot harder than it seems, the window for it to work is super narrow, because the cast wouldn't occur if you do it too early, the window of timing is super tiny. He basically had to dodge while the projectile is travelling which was pretty much instantaneous.
He dodges a stun from an invisible player. No reflexes? Also, dodging the ultimate from Lina is a lot harder than it seems, the window for it to work is super narrow, because the cast wouldn't occur if you do it too early, the window of timing is super tiny. He basically had to dodge while the projectile is travelling which was pretty much instantaneous.
A conversation about poor self esteem turns into endless bickering about dota vs LoL, how ironic
Let's please not talk about overall complexity. If you aren't playing both games at the professional level then you have no place to comment on total complexity. The best us scrub players can discuss is surface complexity. There's a lot of hidden complexity to both games, and in the case of League a lot of this comes from the actual lack of surface complexity. I'd rather settle on the blanket statement that, as balanced MOBA's, they have roughly the same overall complexity. I will, however, agree to the argument that Dota is more complex on the surface.felicitousname wrote:
Dota mechanics and gameplay is more complex overall. There is a lot more flexibility in laning, you aren't forced into any specific laning arrangement, idk. Most people who say that Dota is a worse game haven't played Dota before. I've actually played league, and most heroes when compared to Dota are quite generic.
Yeah, pretty much we all suck as Osu! and we also happen to suck at MOBA's. Instead of comparing how much we suck at OSU! compared to each other we are trying to argue that sucking at one MOBA is more prestigious than sucking at another MOBA. On the surface it may look like endless bickering of dota vs. LoL but if you look underneath you will see a story of poor self esteem.Purple wrote:
A conversation about poor self esteem turns into endless bickering about dota vs LoL, how ironic
buny wrote:
look at LoL tho
pretty much what I read after this post
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
gorilla warfare gets me every timeVaretyr wrote:
buny wrote:
look at LoL thopretty much what I read after this postWhat the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.