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In your opinion, whats the best mechanical switch for osu?

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FlyingKebab
Narill is it this complicated to talk to you in real life?

EDIT: You remind me of how I talk with some people in my native language however, I tend to not get into complicated discussion online.
nrl
Only if you're trying to convince me of something. I don't generally try to convince other people of things outside forums (cause that's what forums are for, amirite?).
FlyingKebab
Fair enough.
Purple

Narrill wrote:

What's obvious is the bias in the test you've described. And even if we assume fingers are naturally better at contraction (which we should not just assume), claiming that more force is better is still an oversimplification of the question.
I think it's pretty obvious. Primate hands are naturally made to contract the fingers, so we can grip stuff. If you wanna prove it otherwise, then you are the one who has to come up with studies, not us.

Nobody has said that more force is better. What jesse said is that the 15g difference is negligible. I don't necessarily agree with him, because I think what he did wrong with reds was bottoming out with too much force, meaning it had nothing to do with key release, but at least I'm not misunderstanding his post.
nrl
I don't have to prove anything because I'm not making a positive claim.
jesse1412

Narrill wrote:

I don't have to prove anything because I'm not making a positive claim.
Actually, argument from ignorance works both ways. You're going to throw out any claims or methods of measuring the physical properties of finger extension/contraction as "biased" or lacking of evidence and then when I give you ways to test it for yourself and collect evidence you decline the methods for your own interpretation of bias.

It seems you're just incredibly awkward to deal with, provide a situation where more force can be applied by opening the hand than clenching it and I'll accept that you have a solid reason for your logic.
Vuelo Eluko
rekt
nrl
I'm not rekt, jesus just doesn't understand burden of proof. I'm not arguing that more force can be applied with flexion than with contraction, in fact I'm not arguing anything at all. I'm simply waiting for you guys to prove your claims with evidence and reminding you that you haven't. This isn't an argument from ignorance because it isn't an argument.

As for your "test," it's flawed because you're at both ends of it. It's like trying to figure out which of your hands is stronger by pushing them against each other; the one you think is going to win is going to win every single time.
Vuelo Eluko
place a 5 pound weight on your fingertips with the back of your hand flat on the surface
contract your fingers

wow that was effortless

now do the same, but close your hand and place it on the side of your fingertips with the nails
try to open your hand

wow that was significantly harder
Synpoo
my right hand is stronger than my left because i use it to masturbate
nrl
But that tests two totally different ranges of motion and potentially two different muscle groups.

And since it'll come up at some point, the amount of sustained force you can apply with flexion isn't relevant, what matters is how quickly that force can be applied.
Vuelo Eluko

Narrill wrote:

But that tests two totally different ranges of motion.
unless you tap with your fingers bent backwards and hand upside down, it doesn't really matter because of course the ranges of motion are different that's how fingers work.

let's make it a little more 'fair', go ahead and put your hand palm down and then put the weight on your fingertips and bend your fingers back. lo and behold, it's going to be harder than contracting and at the same time you're barely going to lift it because they don't bend that way.

the mechanical advantage the fingers have contracting because of the joints is a PART of why they're stronger.

the muscle is the other part, if you put your other hand on the base of your forearm when you contract your fingers you'll feel a much bigger bulge than when opening them with the same effort.
hyouri
Red switches. rrtyui and cookiezi approves
nrl
That's not what I meant. Closing your hand and putting a weight on top of your fingers tests flexion from a closed position while putting a weight on your fingertips with an open hand tests contraction from an open position. Motion in osu! occurs at basically the same position both ways.
Vuelo Eluko
you can literally feel the difference in strength between opening in closing if you own a hand, i don't see why you're so adamant about this. just flex them both ways and feel the difference in muscle from the front and back of the forearms base near the elbow. it's not a small difference. it's like an ogre bicep compared to a midget dick
nrl
I'm adamant about it on principle. People have a tendency to oversimplify things, and this isn't a simple question. Personally, the difference doesn't feel like an ogre bicep compared to a midget dick to me.

To explain why this isn't a simple question, remember that we aren't talking about simple force applications here. For starters, we need to consider how quickly force can be applied in each direction. Second, we need to consider that the key's spring is pushing upwards at all times; it necessitates a higher force on the press, but it can literally lift your finger back into neutral position on the release. Third we need to consider that we aren't just using fingers here, every player's motion is hybridized to some extent. Finally, we need to consider that all of this is time-sensitive. As long as the key's spring can lift your finger past the actuation point before you need to actuate it again the spring is providing force in excess of what is necessary, and that excess eats into your stamina. The question of whether the extra return force of blacks is valuable depends entirely on how long it takes the key to lift your finger past the actuation point; until you reach such a speed where the extra 15g becomes necessary reds will be superior.

At least, until you consider that the distance of the keypress is variable, and that the force applied by the spring is not linear, and that each player's movement is not consistent or uniform, etc.

This is a tough problem. In the end it probably doesn't matter, but if we're gonna pretend that it does let's at least try not to screw around with it.
B1rd

Narrill wrote:

That's nonsensical. Cite a source or try again.
'Each finger may flex and extend, abduct and adduct, and so also circumduct. Flexion is by far the strongest movement.'
-Wikipedia
nrl
Good. Now see the above.
Purple

Narrill wrote:

I'm adamant about it on principle. People have a tendency to oversimplify things, and this isn't a simple question. Personally, the difference doesn't feel like an ogre bicep compared to a midget dick to me.

To explain why this isn't a simple question, remember that we aren't talking about simple force applications here. For starters, we need to consider how quickly force can be applied in each direction. Second, we need to consider that the key's spring is pushing upwards at all times; it necessitates a higher force on the press, but it can literally lift your finger back into neutral position on the release. Third we need to consider that we aren't just using fingers here, every player's motion is hybridized to some extent. Finally, we need to consider that all of this is time-sensitive. As long as the key's spring can lift your finger past the actuation point before you need to actuate it again the spring is providing force in excess of what is necessary, and that excess eats into your stamina. The question of whether the extra return force of blacks is valuable depends entirely on how long it takes the key to lift your finger past the actuation point; until you reach such a speed where the extra 15g becomes necessary reds will be superior.

At least, until you consider that the distance of the keypress is variable, and that the force applied by the spring is not linear, and that each player's movement is not consistent or uniform, etc.

This is a tough problem. In the end it probably doesn't matter, but if we're gonna pretend that it does let's at least try not to screw around with it.
I'm guessing your programming language of choice is assembly

So due to all the reasons stated above, people may hit the keys differently and may therefore favor a particular mechanical keyboard switch. There, simplified it so that we can save our brain resources for more pressing matters.
nrl
I don't know any flavor of assembly, but I'm glad you see my point. Though I will posit that a highly efficient player who uses highly efficient movements will, disregarding any psychological aid a tactile or audible response may provide, prefer linear switches. As for which linear switches, it's very context dependent, and I don't have any numbers on-hand to throw around. Personally, I'd love to get my hands on a few linear greys, but I don't think they're in production anymore.
Aria Kanzaki
i love brown. they are similar to reds but with a little bump. really good for playing osu
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