Imo should be more of common sense thing. White combo color on black bg is fine and vice versa.
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[Rule] Do not use pure white or black combo colors.
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This. This isn't only black/white but also how xxdeathx said dark blue as example can be really hard to read with a bad background contrast. No need for a rule, just mention to use no distracting Combo colours with backgrounds. If they plays bad tell them to change, if not it gets nuked somewhen and we're happy.Raging Bull wrote:
Imo should be more of common sense thing. White combo color on black bg is fine and vice versa.
Seeming the existance of a dim, avoiding pure black seems quite reasonable, but not for pure white.
Did not know that.
According to the article Kiai Time of the Wiki:
Pure black and darker colours in general are generally by me a no-no, since they don't usually fit with most of the BGs and tbh many players dim them completely, which makes the approach circle almost unreadable. On the other hand, I play with a skin which elements are made of pure white, so that Wiki article tends to be irrelevant for me.
What I want to say is that it should be up to the mapper, and only if it causes (sight)reading issues, it must be pointed out by the modders.
Do not use pure white combo color (255,255,255); it makes Kiai blinding and hurts the eyes.It's true that it has been an old non-written rule... But having it as an official one? That's one of the parameters that falls under the common sense of the mapper and therefore it should be a guideline if you want.
Pure black and darker colours in general are generally by me a no-no, since they don't usually fit with most of the BGs and tbh many players dim them completely, which makes the approach circle almost unreadable. On the other hand, I play with a skin which elements are made of pure white, so that Wiki article tends to be irrelevant for me.
What I want to say is that it should be up to the mapper, and only if it causes (sight)reading issues, it must be pointed out by the modders.
Topic Starter
The thing is that maps are getting unranked over this, I just want something to refer to when that happens so mappers as well as modders can read it up in the RC. That way such things can be prevented beforehand.
Well either that or we agree on this not being necessary, making white and black colors indisputably rankable.
Well either that or we agree on this not being necessary, making white and black colors indisputably rankable.
That's basically really really bad when nobody notices that through the modding process and really shouldn't happen. How said, common sense prevents such unqualifies and black/white doesn't need to be unrankable. Adding as guideline instead is way better.Zare wrote:
The thing is that maps are getting unranked over this, I just want something to refer to when that happens so mappers as well as modders can read it up in the RC.
Using that logic, forcing their own combo colors should not be used as an argument since it is not a default setting (maybe it is, correct me if I'm wrong). Combo coloring is meant to provide not only a means to replenish HP but to give an intended experience from the mapper to the player as well. The colors that are on the polar ends of the spectrum make it harder for players to enjoy the mapset to its fullest. In any case, this is really a minor thing - I would suggest making this a guideline as opposed to a rule instead. BAT members can take it on a case by case basis (if its playable and lools fine on the map then leave the colors) and if there is an issue the QAT can handle it.Garven wrote:
Dim isn't a default setting. It's an option. Dark combo colors are only an issue if they blend too much into the chosen background.
EDIT: Stefan you ninja
Topic Starter
Scenario AStefan wrote:
That's basically really really bad when nobody notices that through the modding process and really shouldn't happen. How said, common sense prevents such unqualifies and black/white doesn't need to be unrankable. Adding as guideline instead is way better.Zare wrote:
The thing is that maps are getting unranked over this, I just want something to refer to when that happens so mappers as well as modders can read it up in the RC.
"Hey mapper, can you please change your combo colors? These RGB codes aren't allowed!"
"Hey modder, no i won't change this, I can't see a rule that says so!"
Scenario B
"It's a guideline!"
"There's also a guideline that states to not map songs that are longer than 3 minutes, they're not exactly up-to date or in any way relevant."
Scenario C
"Hi I'm a BAT that joined osu! a year ago, I'm ranking this map as it complies with the RC perfectly!"
"Hi I'm the QAT and neither the mapper nor the modders or BATs can be expected to know about this, but this is unrankable and I will need to unrank this map which causes additional unneeded work and stress for everyone!"
None of this seems very pleasant. Make it a rule or make it perfectly rankable in all cases.
Combo colors setting is up to BG, video, skin and so on.
You never distinguish between (0,0,0) and (0,1,0)
Guideline is better.
You never distinguish between (0,0,0) and (0,1,0)
Guideline is better.
First let's establish WHY using these colors is bad and find which reasons are determined to be actually detrimental to gameplay. We can tailor this proposition to fit the scenarios we find.
From what I've seen:
White combo colors:
Kiai is very bright.
-I think this was from a long time ago when kiai flashes were much stronger. They were reduced significantly and I haven't really heard this reasoning very often
Cannot see slider ticks when using original sliderstyle
-Can suggest to skin in a slider tick that is visible for this situation and the white combo color is fine to use
Black combo colors:
Hard to see when dim is used excessively
-Shouldn't apply since we need to enforce things when everything is at default setting, so everything is on and visible. This would be more of a suggestion/guideline.
Unless there are other angles presented, the only absolute I'm seeing here is against the white combo color, in which there is an option to circumvent the problem and continue using it.
From what I've seen:
White combo colors:
Kiai is very bright.
-I think this was from a long time ago when kiai flashes were much stronger. They were reduced significantly and I haven't really heard this reasoning very often
Cannot see slider ticks when using original sliderstyle
-Can suggest to skin in a slider tick that is visible for this situation and the white combo color is fine to use
Black combo colors:
Hard to see when dim is used excessively
-Shouldn't apply since we need to enforce things when everything is at default setting, so everything is on and visible. This would be more of a suggestion/guideline.
Unless there are other angles presented, the only absolute I'm seeing here is against the white combo color, in which there is an option to circumvent the problem and continue using it.
That hypothetical limitation shall only be used in standard, whilst in CtB the white combo colour is the most preferred option (via skinning) for most of the elite players. Also, even having the overlay of the default skin (which is black), there should be enough contrast to read this colour properly, and therefore it shouldn't be applied any limitation of that regard.Garven wrote:
Unless there are other angles presented, the only absolute I'm seeing here is against the white combo color, in which there is an option to circumvent the problem and continue using it.
This falls under the section quality. And if named mapper rejects to improve his map and to fix this debacle then I see no reason to rank the map because of stubbornness.Zare wrote:
Scenario A
"Hey mapper, can you please change your combo colors? These RGB codes aren't allowed!"
"Hey modder, no i won't change this, I can't see a rule that says so!"
This is a awful example. However it says guidelines CAN be broken in special cases and this one would be a case to not break.Zare wrote:
Scenario B
"It's a guideline!"
"There's also a guideline that states to not map songs that are longer than 3 minutes, they're not exactly up-to date or in any way relevant."
Yes that could happens. And we have guidelines for that. At the end it's still the logic behind the question to use 0,0,0 as Combo colour in a beatmap which is completely black or not.Zare wrote:
Scenario C
"Hi I'm a BAT that joined osu! a year ago, I'm ranking this map as it complies with the RC perfectly!"
"Hi I'm the QAT and neither the mapper nor the modders or BATs can be expected to know about this, but this is unrankable and I will need to unrank this map which causes additional unneeded work and stress for everyone!"
I use 255,255,255 in the skin I use for mapping (and playing), and it's probably the one i like most. I also keep it in when I can (no bright bg, w/ white color?).
Nonetheless I already have at least 3 ranked maps with the white combo color. I love it and I really see no reason how it hinders anything.
On the other hand, I can understand that people hate the black combo color, as dim is highly preferred by pro players and any amount of dim already hinders with a black combo.
Nonetheless I already have at least 3 ranked maps with the white combo color. I love it and I really see no reason how it hinders anything.
On the other hand, I can understand that people hate the black combo color, as dim is highly preferred by pro players and any amount of dim already hinders with a black combo.
This is an oldass rule that has been in place for ages and is linked to kiai being too flashy and notes being hard to read on certain backgrounds. It's not really a discussion, honestly, more like a notice that this rule exists.
Also, I am sure that there will be smartasses or people who think they are intelligent who will try to use rgb(1,1,1) or something similar and go "this isn't unrankable!!!111!1!1!111). Keep in mind that appreciation of this is up to the BATs and ultimately to the QAT. If you are in doubt and wonder if your combo colour choice is too bright or too dark, contact one of them.
Yes, there are ways to circumvent this, but only a select portion of the playerbase uses the visual settings, and we should not accept to impair the experience of those who wish to enjoy the game without that panel based on the argument that a vocal minority uses it. That would be the same as disallowing backgrounds, storyboards or hitsounds based on the fact that a certain number of people choose to always ignore them.
Also, I am sure that there will be smartasses or people who think they are intelligent who will try to use rgb(1,1,1) or something similar and go "this isn't unrankable!!!111!1!1!111). Keep in mind that appreciation of this is up to the BATs and ultimately to the QAT. If you are in doubt and wonder if your combo colour choice is too bright or too dark, contact one of them.
Yes, there are ways to circumvent this, but only a select portion of the playerbase uses the visual settings, and we should not accept to impair the experience of those who wish to enjoy the game without that panel based on the argument that a vocal minority uses it. That would be the same as disallowing backgrounds, storyboards or hitsounds based on the fact that a certain number of people choose to always ignore them.
I'd say: Do not use really dark colours
White is good tho, but can be annoying for kiai
Black on the other hand, is most likely unreadable due to BG-dim, as you can't see the approachcircles then. You can see the note due to default-x.png
White is good tho, but can be annoying for kiai
Black on the other hand, is most likely unreadable due to BG-dim, as you can't see the approachcircles then. You can see the note due to default-x.png
That's almost the same as saying that really hard maps would be unrankable since there's only a vocal minority that can play it and actually enjoy it.Shiro wrote:
Yes, there are ways to circumvent this, but only a select portion of the playerbase uses the visual settings, and we should not accept to impair the experience of those who wish to enjoy the game without that panel based on the argument that a vocal minority uses it. That would be the same as disallowing backgrounds, storyboards or hitsounds based on the fact that a certain number of people choose to always ignore them.
I'm just saying, this is a community so you should also think about that vocal minority. You should think about EVERYBODY. It's wrong to just keep their opinions out just because it's not ethical for you.
I just discovered that ignore beatmap skin also forces your own combo colors, so I suppose the issue I raised earlier about dark combo colors can be remedied this way.
That's exactly what I was saying. Re-read my post.Ayu wrote:
That's almost the same as saying that really hard maps would be unrankable since there's only a vocal minority that can play it and actually enjoy it.Shiro wrote:
Yes, there are ways to circumvent this, but only a select portion of the playerbase uses the visual settings, and we should not accept to impair the experience of those who wish to enjoy the game without that panel based on the argument that a vocal minority uses it. That would be the same as disallowing backgrounds, storyboards or hitsounds based on the fact that a certain number of people choose to always ignore them.
I'm just saying, this is a community so you should also think about that vocal minority. You should think about EVERYBODY. It's wrong to just keep their opinions out just because it's not ethical for you.
tiper
Topic Starter
exactly my pointtiper wrote:
Why do you even discuss the rule that is in force, even though it, for some reasons which I do not understand, wasn't written down in [[RC]] yet? If QATs unrank maps because of black/white combo colors, the rule must be written down. As we can see, they do. That's all.
tbh i expected this thread to be resolved within a few posts as a matter of formality
i think this should be up to the bat or qats to decide.
i also see absolutely no reason for a player to decline something as simple as changing the combo colors.
if they have a really good reason to keep their white or black combo colors, then it's probably fine to keep.
otherwise if they're not being rational at all, just refuse to rank/bubble the map lol.
i also see absolutely no reason for a player to decline something as simple as changing the combo colors.
if they have a really good reason to keep their white or black combo colors, then it's probably fine to keep.
otherwise if they're not being rational at all, just refuse to rank/bubble the map lol.
tiper
We don't discuss whether it makes sense. This rule is just not written down in the ranking criterias, but it was in force for years. According to this post, "pure black and white combo colors are forbidden", which, as it's marked red, also was the main reason to unrank the beatmap. I don't understand why anyone would have wanted to keep this rule unwritten.Kibbleru wrote:
i also see absolutely no reason for a player to decline something as simple as changing the combo colors.
Because rules needs to be followed to 100% while guidelines can be ignored if reasoned. And the map is an example of bad usage.tiper wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would have wanted to keep this rule unwritten.
You either can use them, or you can't. Pick one. There is only "use them if you want, and your map WILL get unqualified, as good usage is "subjective" so fuck you" currently.Stefan wrote:
Because rules needs to be followed to 100% while guidelines can be ignored if reasoned. And the map is an example of bad usage.tiper wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would have wanted to keep this rule unwritten.
An unwritten guideline is not a guideline.
I don't know what this whole fuss is being made for. Just make it a guideline and be done with it. But if the QAT says that "pure black and white colours are UNRANKABLE", then you should make it a rule.
EDIT: After having a small talk with Garven, I came to the conclusion that this "rule" has room for improvement before settling in with it. Further discussions please!
EDIT: After having a small talk with Garven, I came to the conclusion that this "rule" has room for improvement before settling in with it. Further discussions please!
So, I've only mapped like 80% of a difficulty that was expirmental and 20% of a difficulty that I was intending to rank in my entire mapping experience.
I don't know corndogs about mapping.
I've always asked myself, looking back on all the videos and storyboards out there, "Should we really care if the background content is distracting to the player?"
"Should we really care about certain things because other people can disable them?"
"Will players who have no idea about the disabling ability become upset with said map?"
I've played one map, yes, one map, with gray scale combo colors. To be honest, it was hard to read and understand at first because the background was black and white. To be fair, it was pretty neat and different. "Oh, this is cool. I never thought of this before", is something I thought to myself.
But looking at myself now, I can play with ridiculous skins with giant sprite explosions and whatnot. Not everyone is like me though.
There are still things I have yet to understand as stated above.
Why not just tell the mapper something like, "Yo, this map is hard to read with the current combo colors you have. You should try something like (#,#,#) rather than (#,#,#)".
I mean, that's why people mod, right?
I don't know corndogs about mapping.
I've always asked myself, looking back on all the videos and storyboards out there, "Should we really care if the background content is distracting to the player?"
"Should we really care about certain things because other people can disable them?"
"Will players who have no idea about the disabling ability become upset with said map?"
I've played one map, yes, one map, with gray scale combo colors. To be honest, it was hard to read and understand at first because the background was black and white. To be fair, it was pretty neat and different. "Oh, this is cool. I never thought of this before", is something I thought to myself.
But looking at myself now, I can play with ridiculous skins with giant sprite explosions and whatnot. Not everyone is like me though.
There are still things I have yet to understand as stated above.
Why not just tell the mapper something like, "Yo, this map is hard to read with the current combo colors you have. You should try something like (#,#,#) rather than (#,#,#)".
I mean, that's why people mod, right?
This rule sounds like nonsense to me. Are modders seriously going to check whether something is pure white or black? Dimmed users probably either prefer to use their own skin, which comes with custom combo colors or have beatmap skin disabled which uses default colors anyways.
If anything it should be a guideline.
Avoid using pure white as a combo colour as it makes slider ticks hidden while using default skin.
or you could tackle the issue a different way.
Slider ticks must be visible. Avoid using combo colours that excessively blend with the slider ticks. You are welcome to skin your own slider ticks if you want to use a colour that blends.
If anything it should be a guideline.
Avoid using pure white as a combo colour as it makes slider ticks hidden while using default skin.
or you could tackle the issue a different way.
Slider ticks must be visible. Avoid using combo colours that excessively blend with the slider ticks. You are welcome to skin your own slider ticks if you want to use a colour that blends.
tiper
1) It does make sense.TheVileOne wrote:
This rule sounds like nonsense to me
2) Once again, it is already in force.
It seems like I need to say it one more time: there's a beatmap that got disqualified because of pure white combo color. They said, "pure black and white combo colors are forbidden". From then on, you can't call it "a guideline".TheVileOne wrote:
If anything it should be a guideline.
Avoid using pure white as a combo colour as it makes slider ticks hidden while using default skin.
Why does it make sense? Let's list reasons before we commit this to paper. Like I've been saying. Over and over. And over.
From what I've seen and from the information and opinions I've gathered, I've only known of 2 people that have said my combo colors were hard to read. I've even had a BAT look at it and they never mentioned anything about my combo colors. The mapset I speak of is one of my own https://osu.ppy.sh/s/76200 My combo colors are 59,59,59 and 255,255,255. I didn't use pure black because I didn't like the way it looked but the other color is pure white. I want this situation to be assessed from all angles before a decision is made. Thank you~
tiper
Ask another QATs. They unrank beatmaps pointing pure white and black combo colors as the main reason. I'm sure they can list reasons.Garven wrote:
Why does it make sense?
p/3366223/ <- Read this post. There are two choices:
1) It was a mistake and someone just fucked up.
2) It wasn't a mistake. In this case, we do need to write this rule down in [[RC]].
Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion, tiper. Use your brain or stay out please.
tiper
Beatmap got disqualified because of "absolutely nothing"? Well done, then. Keep on showing nice attitude towards the community.Garven wrote:
contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion
UPD:
In order to contribute something to the discussion I will quote Aleks719:
this rule goes from old 2008 or 2009.I can't believe that a BAT with ~1800 kudosu never heard about it.
Should we mention all rules like "don't put objects out of screen", "don't make 300 hitburst look like 100" etcYes, we should. This one is odd and not obvious for newbie mappers.
I modded for 3 years and I never heard of this rule. It has to been something recent (since the time I went on hiatus from modding). I don't want to call it a mistake, because I haven't looked at the specifics and don't really want to. It sounds silly that black combos would not be allowed.
Also if this were a rule it would have been included in aimod years ago. Because it isn't in aimod, I doubt it was ever a rule.
First rule: Hitobjects must never be off-screen.
In Skinning section.
Hitbursts must be clearly distinguishable from each other
Nowhere does it mention restrictions on combo color apart from blending with background elements.
Also if this were a rule it would have been included in aimod years ago. Because it isn't in aimod, I doubt it was ever a rule.
Should we mention all rules like "don't put objects out of screen", "don't make 300 hitburst look like 100" etcThose are actual written rules.
First rule: Hitobjects must never be off-screen.
In Skinning section.
Hitbursts must be clearly distinguishable from each other
Nowhere does it mention restrictions on combo color apart from blending with background elements.
tiper
Updated my post. Someone saying it was a rule and it actually being a rule are two different things.
If it is an unwritten rule, I would like to use this thread as grounds to remove it as a rule since it is obviously outdated. If it was an old rule then it was probably made because it made reverse arrows hard to see. This is no longer an issue, so following an obsolete rule without providing a valid reason is silly.
If it is an unwritten rule, I would like to use this thread as grounds to remove it as a rule since it is obviously outdated. If it was an old rule then it was probably made because it made reverse arrows hard to see. This is no longer an issue, so following an obsolete rule without providing a valid reason is silly.
Topic Starter
the reason is that new maps are still getting unranked over this rule, as I stated in the OP.
However, apparently some staffs think that this thread can be used in order to discuss whether or not the currently-in-place-but-not-written-down rule makes sense or not, so discussion can still go on.
All I know about the technical stuff is that white colors >apparently< cause bad kiai strobing on >some< skins. I've never experienced this so I dont know about it, but it seems like an issue in the skin rather than the combo colors.
Alltogether I'd just suggest to get rid of this unwritten rule and have it forgotten, but if the devs, who confirmed them being an issues, stick to their opinion, just add the rule to the RC for god's sake
However, apparently some staffs think that this thread can be used in order to discuss whether or not the currently-in-place-but-not-written-down rule makes sense or not, so discussion can still go on.
All I know about the technical stuff is that white colors >apparently< cause bad kiai strobing on >some< skins. I've never experienced this so I dont know about it, but it seems like an issue in the skin rather than the combo colors.
Alltogether I'd just suggest to get rid of this unwritten rule and have it forgotten, but if the devs, who confirmed them being an issues, stick to their opinion, just add the rule to the RC for god's sake
If I may state my opinion:
Pure black or white colours CAN be an issue, and as such changing these should be a "quality standard" as stated in the image above.
This is not added in the Ranking Criteria, but it's a bubble factor which in turn leads to ranking (and unranking)
If anything, colours go into quality standards.
Pure black or white colours CAN be an issue, and as such changing these should be a "quality standard" as stated in the image above.
This is not added in the Ranking Criteria, but it's a bubble factor which in turn leads to ranking (and unranking)
If anything, colours go into quality standards.
tiper
the reason is that new maps are still getting unranked over this rule
I'm done here. Talking with staff of their mistakes gets you nowhere. Let's just make this rule well-looking.
1) White combo colours, as Zare said, cause bad kiai strobing on some skins. I'd not use "pure white" as definition, because #FFFFFE colour is, nominally, not "pure", but still does the same thing.
2) Pure black combo colours make hitobjects invisible with 100% dim (and default skin).