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[New Guideline] About Difficulty Spread

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Natsu
so basically, unranks like this one: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3381966 were pointless?
Mao
Looks like that, Natsu.
I personally also think we shouldn't judge according to the Icons but as remember we were told (like this unqualify shows) not to qualify Maps that don't have a consecutive Spread (according to thethe amount of Stars in the RC).
Also about two weeks ago I've asked a QAT about it and he also said that a Gap within the Icons is unrankable.
But yeah, completely agree on what Oracle said. Spread is a case by case thing that also depends on BPM and overall playability that the SR probably doesn't get accurately.
ErunamoJAZZ
About the differences in difficulty due to BPM, I think it is clear that a 220 song itself is harder than a 150, and what you can change this is simply the SV.
At 220, the density of notes is higher. I do believe that this should be judged by a human, but do not remove the credit staring system to show this.
PyaKura
I'm lost. Are we supposed to be following a consecutive icons order or not ? And what if my EZ and NM are tagged [NM] and [HD] respectively on the website ? Does it get considered an NM/HD/[Insert 2 higher diffs here] spread basically making it unrankable ?
haha5957
As long as you have reasonable Easy and appropriate difficulty spread it should be fine I guess?

let's say a map has a difficulty spread of 1.4-2.7-4.0-5.8

Would you really require hard difficulty (around 3.4ish) on the mapset only because the difficulty gap between normal and insane is too big, when the average difficulty difference is actually 1.3~1.4SR?

Why not require another insane or extra between 4.0 and 5.8 cuz their difficulty difference is also way too big for average insane player and they cant prepare for appropriate extra?


And most of you guys honestly don't even play normal or below but it seems like that you are pretending to be "the guy who thinks about newbie".
The truth is newbies take no longer than a week to be a average normal+~hard player, and there are more than enough of those diffs.


In addition to that please realize that osu already has ridiculously big amount of very easy maps. sort it by difficulty, and you will somehow realize that osu! has much smaller group of 3.75 or higher diffs than you imagine.

Some other rhythm games (specificly BEMANI) some musics have 6 or even 7 (of 10) as their easiest difficulty and nobody complains about it. - mainly because there are many other easy musics and they admit that some higher BPM songs deserve higher diff (even to the easiest ones). However osu has the most music in all of rhythm games (I have like 33000 difficulties in my hand, most of them are easy and normals) and calling osu is lacking "difficulty spread" seems like nonsense to me. if A mapset is lacking difficulty spread, other mapset that is ALSO lacking difficulty will somehow make it fit.



Thing should be simple as :

if you have a extra difficulty map (and is obvious) you should have at least three other difficulties with appropriate difficulty gap, and you should have at least two other difficulty with appropriate difficulty gap if you have insane difficulty.

Bullshit+bullshit = legit
1.0 2.2 4.3 5.7(lacking hard) + 1.5 3.2 4.8(lacking normal) = 1.0 1.5 2.2 3.2 4.3 4.8 5.7 (lacking nothing)

and maybe force that 2.0SR rule as the easiest difficulty if you really wanna force it
PyaKura
can't make that a general hard rule for every mode
blissfulyoshi
I was thinking about the diff spread issue, and something cam up in my mind, dt versions of the map should be considered as part of the spreads. What I mean by this is that the dt version of a every diff in a mapset should be considered when rating a map's spread.

Before you think I'm crazy, first let me explain my reasoning. As pointed out in the op, a lot of hard diffs use a lot of 1/2s and a lot of X diffs use 1/4s, or in other terms a 2x increase in note density, but with no real middle ground. While this might be okay with lower difficulty maps, as you go to higher BPMs, the gap between hard and X becomes increasingly large. Luckily, dt is only a 1.5x multiplier, allowing the creation of that middle ground, which could solve that problem.

As a personal example, I am currently mapping a 130BPM song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsqNTQoO1mw#t=5631) that has drums every 1/8th tick, so lets just call it a 260BPM stream map. As you might expect, the Hard diff plays like a normal 130BPM stream diff, and extra plays like a 260BPM stream diff. The question is, how do you bridge them? The only reply I got about this was use triplets and/or short sliders t/256562. While this solution works, 260BPM triplets isn't exactly something I would consider insane, regardless of spacing. However, a 195 BPM stream 130 * 1.5 is definitely a lot closer to an insane diff, which leads to the necessity that dt diffs should be considered in the spread.
Kinomi

blissfulyoshi wrote:

I was thinking about the diff spread issue, and something cam up in my mind, dt versions of the map should be considered as part of the spreads. What I mean by this is that the dt version of a every diff in a mapset should be considered when rating a map's spread.
most humorous joking 2014.

blissfulyoshi wrote:

Before you think I'm crazy, first let me explain my reasoning. As pointed out in the op, a lot of hard diffs use a lot of 1/2s and a lot of X diffs use 1/4s, or in other terms a 2x increase in note density, but with no real middle ground. While this might be okay with lower difficulty maps, as you go to higher BPMs, the gap between hard and X becomes increasingly large. Luckily, dt is only a 1.5x multiplier, allowing the creation of that middle ground, which could solve that problem.
how about normal to hard or easy to normal? there are all 1/1 in easier diffs but 1/2 in harder diffs

blissfulyoshi wrote:

As a personal example, I am currently mapping a 130BPM song ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsqNTQoO1mw#t=5631 ) that has drums every 1/8th tick, so lets just call it a 260BPM stream map. As you might expect, the Hard diff plays like a normal 130BPM stream diff, and extra plays like a 260BPM stream diff. The question is, how do you bridge them? The only reply I got about this was use triplets and/or short sliders t/256562 . While this solution works, 260BPM triplets isn't exactly something I would consider insane, regardless of spacing. However, a 195 BPM stream 130 * 1.5 is definitely a lot closer to an insane diff, which leads to the necessity that dt diffs should be considered in the spread.
BPM is a sign of difficulty too, if you ignore the other tracks just because of difficuly. sorry, that is not mapping.
blissfulyoshi

Tsukuyomi wrote:

BPM is a sign of difficulty too, if you ignore the other tracks just because of difficuly. sorry, that is not mapping.
I think something seriously got lost in translation because I really don't understand you, but first off, difficulty should never be purely judged off BPM. BPM is an indicator of how fast the downbeats are in a music, nothing else, assuming it is timed correctly.

Now, if you mean by tracks, you mean by other things to follow, these things have to follow the BPM, which usually means 1/1, 1/2 and 1/4, nothing inbetween, so not sure how you are planning to bridge by following other things when they still all fall under 1/(2^x) where x is an integer. Usually, a lot of maps these days bridge maps by difficulty of jumps, but more difficult jumps does not prepare you for faster streams and vice-versa.

In short, I am not joking, but I don't understand your argument at all.
Topic Starter
Myxo
Uhh, this is getting in a completely different direction than I wanted it to go.

At the end, it might be best to just leave the Ranking Criteria as it is (since it doesn't seem to up-to-date anyways and there seem to be many flaws) and let the BATs judge it case-by-case.
I have the feeling nobody reads the RC anyways
p3n

Mapset

  1. The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars. The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BATs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:
    1. Below 1.5: Easy
    2. Below 2.25: Normal
    3. Below 3.75: Hard
    4. Below 5.25: Insane
    5. Above 5.25: Expert

Guidelines

  1. The difficulty spread should be linear and reasonable. Linear difficulty spread means your difficulties have a comparable gap in star rating between each other. A reasonable spread means the usage of difficulty appropriate gameplay elements. If your mapset does not have an Easy difficulty your Normal difficulty should follow the general guidelines for Easy difficulties. If your Insane difficulty is at or above a 5 star rating it is recommended to include another Insane level difficulty between Hard and the 5+ Insane.
Topic Starter
Myxo
Nice! Here is my question:

p3n wrote:

Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it
Does that mean you can have Easy Hard Insane sets now (telling from the icons), when the gaps between the difficulties are even? Or did i misunderstand something.. Also, is it still allowed to name the difficulty Normal in this case instead of Easy, although the icon is an Easy one?
p3n
1.4 -> 2.6 -> 3.8 can work depending on the song and the mapping style. Overall if the BATs think it would be beneficial to the spread to include another diff at 2.0 in this imaginary set then that is what should be done. But theoretically there could be a mapset that is mapped with an E-H-I spread that is properly balanced. That will not free the BATs from actually checking the lower diffs and the usage of gameplay elements and the general setup of the spread like SV, beat patterns, spacings, overlaps, difficulty settings and so on.
Loctav
Amended for now. We might link a new article for the "difficulty appropriate gameplay elements" to clarify this.
DakeDekaane
I'm assuming "skipping Easy or Normal" relates to the web icons and not in the real spread, right?
Loctav
It always does, yes.
Kibbleru
but what if this scenario happens:

mapset has a proper spread say like 1 -> 3 -> 5

but then the mapper decides to add another insane diff between the 3 -> 5

would the mapper then need to add a difficulty too between 1 -> 3 to make the spread linear again?
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