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Cumulative rank

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +1,191
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Topic Starter
Bara-
Bump
Topic Starter
Bara-

Baraatje123 wrote:

Bump
Gnoske
yes please! i play all modes, would love this!
MBomb
I still think this is a great idea. As stated previously, if you don't care about other modes, just ignore the cumulative rank like you would ignore the other modes rank.
Amane
great idea!
Endaris
It's a bit lame with the learning curves though.
It's no problem for anyone halfdecent at standard to get to 1,5k pp in Taiko in no time as the easiest Kantans already give 50pp for SS and Futsuus 100pp.
Tbh any further mechanics that encourage players to play the maps that give most pp for the least skill or effort is bad for the game and especially in Taiko and mania where you got some converts that are terribly effective for pp yet rather worthless gameplaywise. Like full don Taikomaps...

I have a lot of respect for people who play all modes on a decent level but I think such an cumulative ranking isn't the correct way to promote them.
Kayla
So is this just a way for people who dont only play standard to be able to say "Im a higher rank over-all than you" to other standard players?
I dont see the function for this, really; other then that.

This wont lead to all-mode tournaments or all-mode in game rankings. Seems like clutter. Yes people can ignore it, but people won't.

osu!mania: I dont play because of releasing sliders.
Taiko: Makes me dizzy.
ctb: Makes me dizzy.
Chrli

Kayla wrote:

Yes people can ignore it, but people won't.
Honestly I agree there, this is an interesting idea but it just doesn't seem needed... more or less another way for bragging rights.
Just my opinion.
GhostFrog
The "people won't ignore it" and that they'll use it for bragging rights (is that seriously even a thing people care about????) argument works as an argument against having a pp system at all. The current pp system favors people who play certain types of maps, regardless of which game mode you're referring to, just like an all-mode ranking system would favor people who plays all modes. An all-mode ranking system would actually be harder to exploit for bragging rights though because you can tell so easily if someone doesn't play one or more of the game modes - having a 1pp play as a top performance in some mode tends to make it obvious, for example. This, of course, is assuming that people actually care about using rank for bragging rights rather than for a fun bit of competitiveness. Which is really really silly.

The "x pp in one mode is not the same as x pp in another mode" argument is true and I stand by what I've already said in this thread that the pp curves for all modes would need to be smoothed out before this would be a good idea. I do think it would be a good idea when that happens though.
Sea_Food

Charlieesh wrote:

Kayla wrote:

Yes people can ignore it, but people won't.
Honestly I agree there, this is an interesting idea but it just doesn't seem needed... more or less another way for bragging rights.
Just my opinion.
Okay. Should I make a thread in feature request sub forum suggesting that all ranks should be removed from the game. What is the point of having a rank if not bragging rights...
Topic Starter
Bara-
BUMP
I still want this quite a lot

EDIT: FINALLY
10.000 posts ^_^
Sea_Food
Gz
Topic Starter
Bara-

Bara- wrote:

Baraatje123 wrote:

Bump
Edit: 9400th post ^_^
Endaris
Filthy Postcountfarmer :^)
I think when you're already bumping it would be good if you added the arguments given so far to the OP to make it easier to discuss for people who see it for the first time now so they don't have to dig through 7 pages.
AX3M
Wow! This is genius. It reminds players that they don't have to stick with a mode or two but be flexible and that osu! is not just osu! standard. Neat.

Edit: I would send a couple stars, but I have none atm so..
Topic Starter
Bara-

Endaris wrote:

Filthy Postcountfarmer :^)
I think when you're already bumping it would be good if you added the arguments given so far to the OP to make it easier to discuss for people who see it for the first time now so they don't have to dig through 7 pages.
I'll do that later today
I'm at mobile now
mizuki-chan
i like the idea.
i would start at least trying the other modes too then (maybe...)
Flami
good but there are a lot of people that only play one or two modes and not all four which would make it kind of weird imo
mulraf
also liking the idea a lot and thought about it as well.
sadly no more stars left ;(
Reha
-
Korrui
that would be pretty cool but i would be sad to see how low my average rank is considering i have a horrible mania rank.. how would it work with people who dont have a rank in a gamemode?
Mirt
I love this idea. Maybe it will even motivate me play try CTB more. >.>

I also think that it would be great for others to try more modes rather than just sticking to one. I like it c:
Reha
-
MBomb

AnimeGod2205 wrote:

that would be pretty cool but i would be sad to see how low my average rank is considering i have a horrible mania rank.. how would it work with people who dont have a rank in a gamemode?
I assume one of two things would happen here:

1. Cumulative rank only shows as something like a mode which you haven't played, until you have at least 1 score in all gamemodes.

or

2. It just shows your rank of the gamemodes you have played, combined.

Oh also, quick point which is kinda implied but not fully by the current post, I think it'd be nice to also have a leaderboard of cumulative score, as well as cumulative rank/pp, just as another interesting leaderboard.
Catgirl
i just skimmed through this whole thread and i see so many people who don't play all modes being extremely butthurt about this whole idea of adding in support for something that won't affect them at all.

i would be in support of somewhere, a page that shows the top 10k in performance across all game modes, like how we have this page for each individual mode. (who cares how it's calculated, it's going to be a flawed system anyway since pp is the base and it's already flawed itself) i think it would be easy to just have it be similar to the score rankings, where you can't easily find yourself, but you can search through the leaderboards and find where you would be. it would be cool to see who is #1, #2, and so on, all the way down through the list.

showing it on user profiles' wouldn't really work right now because i'm not sure where to put it, but maybe it could fit somewhere in osu!next because there definitely seems to be space on the new profiles.

if you're some rank 6k in standard who is gonna get super salty about not having any pp in other modes and therefore not being in a top 10k total performance leaderboards, don't go telling other people it's a terrible idea just for that reason. assuming we already had this leaderboard, i know you wouldn't be looking at it anyway. people who won't use something shouldn't decide if it should be a thing or not.

another point that has kinda been mentioned but i want to elaborate on is pp scaling in the individual modes. i'm referring to how getting a play that's worth 200pp is worth more when you have no other 200pp scores, compared to getting the same 200pp play when you have tons of 250pp+ scores. when you have very low playcount in a mode, it's a lot easier to gain that raw pp, which is why pp in each mode is weighted.

assuming this were to be implemented just based on pp in each mode, i propose to weight each mode's pp total similarly. for example, let's say that a player has the following pp amount in the 4 modes:
osu! - 5000
taiko - 2500
ctb - 500
mania - 2000

if you just add them together then the player would have 10000 total pp. but an increase from 5000 to 5500 pp in osu! would be much more valuable than an increase from 500 to 1000 pp in ctb. because of this i think a weighting would make sense, not sure what the weights should be, because you still want to reward people who play all modes but at the same time ignoring how easy it can be to gain pp at much lower ranks.

i might throw some stars when i get home cause i have a ton. are stars even important anymore?
mizuki-chan
+??? stars, i threw all on this
i decided to vote for this because i thought about this idea is really great !
think about it...there are the respective rankings for all the game modes like the whole time, but a additional ranking for "alltogether" would encourage the playing of the other modes. i think it would bring some fresh wind with it, plus it wont hurt the "only std players" or "only taiko players" because they still have their respective ranking for that. seriously, please add this xd

and this comes from an only std player. . .
mulraf
just now i read through all the older posts. i strongly disagree with the people saying it would be unjust since the ones who are only concentrating on one game made won't be high in there. it's just an extra - you will still be high within your own category. if people care about ctb and you are a good ctb player, then they'll look at the ctb rankings. if people want to know about allrounders they'd just look into this new category.
if you only concentrate on osu!std and you dislike this because you won't be high in the cumulative ranking, why don't you dislike the taiko ranking? you aren't high up in there either. to you it should just be some kind of extra that you can look at if you're interested or not look at if you aren't.
there are many people who play more than just one gamemode who would be interested in seeing the best 'allrounders' who are high in each category. once i asked about good people in every gamemode in #osu and a short discussion started. if you weigh them individually - the benefit of having an 'own place' for the allrounders who tend to everything osu has to offer and a new interesting category to look at people who are skilled at different things. the disadvantage of players who concentrate on one category being "only" good at 1 ranking. which weighs heavier? is it even a disadvantage or just justified? i think as long as this cumulative rank isn't seen as more important than the individual single gamemodes, everything is fine. so i'd say if you don't name this new category "overall" or something but rather something like "mixed" or idk it should be fine (since if new people come to the osu website and they see "overall" in the ranking, they are gonna assume the "overall" best players are naturally the best players overall. guess you can see why i dislike that).
Seijiro
10k pp club, here I come x)
I see no evil in this request and as mentioned before, if it's something you don't want to do there's no one obliging you, so why not. I'd be curious to see how many allrounders are around in the game.
Luvdic
Hello.

So, I haven't read the whole posts and discussion so far, only the last page and the first post, and from what I can see at glance is that the usage of pp is flawed if we are to calculate the cumulative ranks through all game modes. The main reason being that pp gained through the four modes are NOT normalized.

I just wanted to point out the the possibility of using the ranks in each mode as the measure instead of pp at each mode, meaning this:

CP (cumulative points) = 1/(rank in standard) + 1/(rank in taiko) + 1/(rank in ctb) + 1/(rank in mania)
If any term results in 0 because of no rank achieved in that mode, it should default to 0
And then rank players based on their CP.

I think this way it will help normalize a bit the parameters as well as rewarding more to those players that has a high rank in a specific mode.
Ex:

I have the following ranks:
standard: 2000 (~5800pp)
ctb: 10000 (~1000pp)
taiko: 30000 (~800pp)
mania: 0
CP = 0.0006333
Total pp = 7600

My friend has the following ranks:
standard: 0
ctb: 2000 (~2300pp)
taiko: 2500 (~3500pp)
mania: 0
CP = 0.0009
Total pp = 5800

This means that my friend should be ranked higher than me in the cumulative rank, which makes sense as having 2 modes ranked at ~2000 is more impressive in my opinion.

Anyways, it should be polished a bit more as people in the top 10 will be weighted too good, etc etc etc. But my point is that using pp as the parameter is not the way to go for this. (Maybe setting it so that it is 1/(100+rank in mode) can help offset a bit, but idk, will require real testings to fine tune it.
AncuL

Xanandra wrote:

This means that my friend should be ranked higher than me in the cumulative rank, which makes sense as having 2 modes ranked at ~2000 is more impressive in my opinion.
the more mode you play, the better you are
Topic Starter
Bara-
Xanandra, that would favor #1-10 who play only one mode much more over those ranked #100-1000 in all modes
Luvdic

AncuL wrote:

Xanandra wrote:

This means that my friend should be ranked higher than me in the cumulative rank, which makes sense as having 2 modes ranked at ~2000 is more impressive in my opinion.
the more mode you play, the better you are
My point is, if we were to use the cumulative rank based on pp, in my example given, I would have a higher rank than my friend because I have higher pp even though I only excel in one mode (whereas my hypothetical friend excels in two mode)

Bara- wrote:

Xanandra, that would favor #1-10 who play only one mode much more over those ranked #100-1000 in all modes
I am only giving out an idea, it can be fine tuned so that higher ranks wouldn't be rewarded so handsomely, and we would have to define starting at what levels should a player excelling in two modes have a higher rank than a player excelling a single mode, etc etc etc. To do all of these, tests and fine tuning will be required.

My point of my post is that using pp for a cumulative rank is NOT the way to go, unless a method to normalize the pp values between different modes on which I find it difficult.
Topic Starter
Bara-
Ohh
I get your point now
Catgirl
rank is also based on how many people play a mode. being #1000 in standard is much more impressive than being #1000 in taiko for example just because so many more people play standard. pp was used in my example earlier as a "skill metric" because it doesn't depend on what anybody else does with regards to ranking up, even though we know it's not the best system for skill.

if you use an extreme rank example, let's say you have 2 players. one of them only plays standard and mania and is #20k in both games. one plays only taiko and ctb and is #20k in both games. which player should be higher ranked? obviously the first player because standard and mania have larger playerbases. it's possible to get to those ranks in taiko and ctb with a double digit playcount, while reaching #20k in standard requires well over 3000pp. but if we just average ranks then both players are seen as equal.

using a pp system would make up for the difference in the number of players that play each gamemode, but it would need some normalizing if we wanted a perfect ranking system. however, that's not what pp is. all of the other rankings use pp so the best we can do for now is use pp in some way to balance all of the modes.
XEPCOH
Totally support this request!
yaaaay 20k pp club~
Luvdic

Catgirl wrote:

rank is also based on how many people play a mode. being #1000 in standard is much more impressive than being #1000 in taiko for example just because so many more people play standard. pp was used in my example earlier as a "skill metric" because it doesn't depend on what anybody else does with regards to ranking up, even though we know it's not the best system for skill.

if you use an extreme rank example, let's say you have 2 players. one of them only plays standard and mania and is #20k in both games. one plays only taiko and ctb and is #20k in both games. which player should be higher ranked? obviously the first player because standard and mania have larger playerbases. it's possible to get to those ranks in taiko and ctb with a double digit playcount, while reaching #20k in standard requires well over 3000pp. but if we just average ranks then both players are seen as equal.

using a pp system would make up for the difference in the number of players that play each gamemode, but it would need some normalizing if we wanted a perfect ranking system. however, that's not what pp is. all of the other rankings use pp so the best we can do for now is use pp in some way to balance all of the modes.
Yes, it is true that some modes has a higher player base than others, but at least when you're comparing by ranks, you're comparing them by something consistent which is by how far you are from the #1 in the specified game mode.

In any case, I did a little research, here are the amount of pp that players at rank #10000 has in each mode:

Standard: 4287
Taiko: 1816
CTB: 992
Mania: 2784

And here's the amount of pp of players in rank #1000

Standard: 6548
Taiko: 4744
CTB: 3608
Mania: 7132

See how erratic it is? If we were to use pp, the player that is #1000 in taiko and mania will be better than the player that is #1000 in standard and CTB (hey! I thought you said that standard weighted more because of higher player base! guess not). On the other hand, if you look at them as being 1k players away from being the top of two modes, then they are ranked the same, which makes more sense to me.

Anyways, I didn't say it in my earlier post, but I do agree with this feature too! It would be interesting to see
Catgirl

Xanandra wrote:

And here's the amount of pp of players in rank #1000
Standard: 6548
Taiko: 4744
CTB: 3608
Mania: 7132
See how erratic it is? If we were to use pp, the player that is #1000 in taiko and mania will be better than the player that is #1000 in standard and CTB (hey! I thought you said that standard weighted more because of higher player base! guess not).

I think you need to check your numbers again on that. Never mind, you kinda went backwards with what I originally said so I was confused. The more accurate statement would be Standard has a larger playerbase, but mania has more "good players" (based on pp). You have a point, but it's more because mania's pp system is just scaled really poorly at all levels. There are a bunch of players outside the top 2000 in mania who can do 400pp scores. Show me that in standard. It just doesn't happen. You'd have to scale pp somehow to make it more consistent across all modes.

Xanandra wrote:

On the other hand, if you look at them as being 1k players away from being the top of two modes, then they are ranked the same, which makes more sense to me.

Slightly exaggerated, but saying you're rank #5000 in a game with probably 200,000 active players (osu!) is a lot more impressive than saying you're rank #5000 in a game with 2,000 active players (taiko/ctb). Probably bad estimates but hopefully you get my point.

I don't think there's a perfect way to compare across modes but even an imperfect system is better than no system, so I'm still all for this no matter how it gets implemented, whether by rank, pp, or a mix of the two.
Luvdic
I think you need to check your numbers again on that. Never mind, you kinda went backwards with what I originally said so I was confused. The more accurate statement would be Standard has a larger playerbase, but mania has more "good players" (based on pp). You have a point, but it's more because mania's pp system is just scaled really poorly at all levels. There are a bunch of players outside the top 2000 in mania who can do 400pp scores. Show me that in standard. It just doesn't happen. You'd have to scale pp somehow to make it more consistent across all modes.
[/quote]

Hahaha sorry, my bad for not putting it in the best way possible.

I think the source of our disagreement is precisely that, what I am trying to say is that you cannot compare 400 pp obtained in standard and 400pp obtained in mania. Although yes, a rescaling could work too, by using something like... how many people have over XXXXpp in each mode and use that as the scale. It would be interesting to see the different results they yield and see which one seems to be more reasonable haha.
Edgar_Figaro
+1 this idea as I was thinking of a similar idea myself but saw this. I love all the game modes and have always found it a pity so many people play 1 and never try the others. Hopefully a feature like this would help to expand the other modes coommunities
Swerro
+25 votes, really like this idea!

Makes me think of this website http://osu.dawnglare.com/?p=totalpp

I'd love to see countryranking in dutchland for this
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