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Cumulative rank

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +1,191
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Topic Starter
Bara-
About the bad rank
If you play ctb once or twice, you get 1 pp for example, giving you rank 500k or smth
So you don't care about that bad rank, but you do care about a bad rank in total
Come on please

Yeah, pp scaling might need to be adjusted a little for this, but idk how exactly ;-;
Luna
Since the concern of "unjust" low ranks is coming up again, lemme quote myself here.

Luna wrote:

And to address the issues of people who don't want a cumulative rank since they don't play all modes - how about we just make the cumulative rank decay/disappear whenever one of your mode ranks does the same? So, you won't have a cumulative rank unless you have "active" ranks in all modes?
Drezi

GhostFrog wrote:

The triathlete analogy is subtly flawed - a swimmer is not a triathlete and if a swimmer one day decides to go for a short bike ride and then for a run, he is still not a triathlete. If you play any of the 4 osu! game modes, you're an osu! player.
I don't want to go into further analogies, since there will always be aspects where the cases being compared differ, but I think my main point here is pretty clear.
You can categorise everyone as an "osu! player", but it doesn't change the fact that the 4 game modes are distinct games on their own, bundled together. An osu! standard player is completely different from an osu! mania player. And as you said, if an osu! standard player decides to play some others mods too, it still doesn't make him an all-mode player and should not be included in the same ladder, since their efforts are not comparable.
Yes playing one or more games included in osu! connects them, but that's not more relevant for the sake of rankings than playing games connecting people as being "gamers".

GhostFrog wrote:

the most common objection to an overall ranking (or perhaps the only objection aside from concerns over implementation details) is that it's unfair for players who only play one mode to have a bad overall rank listed on their profile. I honestly can't see how that's a problem unless people seeing every game mode as legitimate is a problem
Every game mode is a legitimate part of osu!, but they are different games and they have their own ladders. Not everyone is interested in playing different games apart from the one of their choice, so yes it is unfair to compare someone who only practices one game mode with someone who is interested in all of them. Ranking an osu! standard player together with an all-mode player is not much different, than trying to rank an osu! standard player together with someone who plays stepmania and sound voltex and some standalone taiko game too. Playing different games within osu is optional just like playing separate rhythm games, and not a necessity of being a good "osu! player", thus no ranking should indicate otherwise.
Drezi

Luna wrote:

Since the concern of "unjust" low ranks is coming up again, lemme quote myself here.

Luna wrote:

And to address the issues of people who don't want a cumulative rank since they don't play all modes - how about we just make the cumulative rank decay/disappear whenever one of your mode ranks does the same? So, you won't have a cumulative rank unless you have "active" ranks in all modes?
Yes, sorry I missed that, that's what I proposed too - only rank players together who actually actively play all-modes.
Minhtam
Would love to see this happen, but our current pp systems aren't ready for this. Taiko pp has yet to be properly readjusted.
Reign
Promoted.
Eni
This sounds really cool. It will help promote players to actually play something other than osu!standard and reward those that already do. :)

Maybe there can be a section for Cumulative Rank on the new site?
Topic Starter
Bara-
Bump
I just came across this searching for an other thread
Time to bring this back up
-Maus-
Unsupport, basically because of what Drezi said.
Rilene
Nice idea, need to support this.
Having this doesn't damage everyone, I think (maybe the effect is too smal for the website to be noticed)

This encourages to play all modes together, and perhaps more fun. :)
Irreversible

Drezi wrote:

Including everyone in all-mode rankings is wrong, and should not ever happen. Why? There are lots of people (including me) who have no interest at all in game modes other than standard, thus ranking multi-mode players above us would be like ranking a Triathlon athele above every pure Swimmer/Cyclist/Runner. I hope you can see how bad that would be. The purpose of such a sport/ranking is to compare ONLY THOSE who actually decided to competitively participate in all the subcategories involved.
I don't really enjoy playing other modes besides Standard as well. Do I now care what rank I have in Taiko, CtB or osu!mania? No. Why would you have to care about the Cumulative one? If there would be contests for it, it's for people who want to play all these modes - if they don't enjoy it, they can simply ignore it, can't they?

Supporting, because in my opinion the ones who don't want to play all 4 modes can simply ignore this. And after all, it would be a challenge for those who seek for more.
Topic Starter
Bara-
Bump
Topic Starter
Bara-

Baraatje123 wrote:

Bump
Gnoske
yes please! i play all modes, would love this!
MBomb
I still think this is a great idea. As stated previously, if you don't care about other modes, just ignore the cumulative rank like you would ignore the other modes rank.
Amane
great idea!
Endaris
It's a bit lame with the learning curves though.
It's no problem for anyone halfdecent at standard to get to 1,5k pp in Taiko in no time as the easiest Kantans already give 50pp for SS and Futsuus 100pp.
Tbh any further mechanics that encourage players to play the maps that give most pp for the least skill or effort is bad for the game and especially in Taiko and mania where you got some converts that are terribly effective for pp yet rather worthless gameplaywise. Like full don Taikomaps...

I have a lot of respect for people who play all modes on a decent level but I think such an cumulative ranking isn't the correct way to promote them.
Kayla
So is this just a way for people who dont only play standard to be able to say "Im a higher rank over-all than you" to other standard players?
I dont see the function for this, really; other then that.

This wont lead to all-mode tournaments or all-mode in game rankings. Seems like clutter. Yes people can ignore it, but people won't.

osu!mania: I dont play because of releasing sliders.
Taiko: Makes me dizzy.
ctb: Makes me dizzy.
Chrli

Kayla wrote:

Yes people can ignore it, but people won't.
Honestly I agree there, this is an interesting idea but it just doesn't seem needed... more or less another way for bragging rights.
Just my opinion.
GhostFrog
The "people won't ignore it" and that they'll use it for bragging rights (is that seriously even a thing people care about????) argument works as an argument against having a pp system at all. The current pp system favors people who play certain types of maps, regardless of which game mode you're referring to, just like an all-mode ranking system would favor people who plays all modes. An all-mode ranking system would actually be harder to exploit for bragging rights though because you can tell so easily if someone doesn't play one or more of the game modes - having a 1pp play as a top performance in some mode tends to make it obvious, for example. This, of course, is assuming that people actually care about using rank for bragging rights rather than for a fun bit of competitiveness. Which is really really silly.

The "x pp in one mode is not the same as x pp in another mode" argument is true and I stand by what I've already said in this thread that the pp curves for all modes would need to be smoothed out before this would be a good idea. I do think it would be a good idea when that happens though.
Sea_Food

Charlieesh wrote:

Kayla wrote:

Yes people can ignore it, but people won't.
Honestly I agree there, this is an interesting idea but it just doesn't seem needed... more or less another way for bragging rights.
Just my opinion.
Okay. Should I make a thread in feature request sub forum suggesting that all ranks should be removed from the game. What is the point of having a rank if not bragging rights...
Topic Starter
Bara-
BUMP
I still want this quite a lot

EDIT: FINALLY
10.000 posts ^_^
Sea_Food
Gz
Topic Starter
Bara-

Bara- wrote:

Baraatje123 wrote:

Bump
Edit: 9400th post ^_^
Endaris
Filthy Postcountfarmer :^)
I think when you're already bumping it would be good if you added the arguments given so far to the OP to make it easier to discuss for people who see it for the first time now so they don't have to dig through 7 pages.
AX3M
Wow! This is genius. It reminds players that they don't have to stick with a mode or two but be flexible and that osu! is not just osu! standard. Neat.

Edit: I would send a couple stars, but I have none atm so..
Topic Starter
Bara-

Endaris wrote:

Filthy Postcountfarmer :^)
I think when you're already bumping it would be good if you added the arguments given so far to the OP to make it easier to discuss for people who see it for the first time now so they don't have to dig through 7 pages.
I'll do that later today
I'm at mobile now
mizuki-chan
i like the idea.
i would start at least trying the other modes too then (maybe...)
Flami
good but there are a lot of people that only play one or two modes and not all four which would make it kind of weird imo
mulraf
also liking the idea a lot and thought about it as well.
sadly no more stars left ;(
Reha
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Korrui
that would be pretty cool but i would be sad to see how low my average rank is considering i have a horrible mania rank.. how would it work with people who dont have a rank in a gamemode?
Mirt
I love this idea. Maybe it will even motivate me play try CTB more. >.>

I also think that it would be great for others to try more modes rather than just sticking to one. I like it c:
Reha
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MBomb

AnimeGod2205 wrote:

that would be pretty cool but i would be sad to see how low my average rank is considering i have a horrible mania rank.. how would it work with people who dont have a rank in a gamemode?
I assume one of two things would happen here:

1. Cumulative rank only shows as something like a mode which you haven't played, until you have at least 1 score in all gamemodes.

or

2. It just shows your rank of the gamemodes you have played, combined.

Oh also, quick point which is kinda implied but not fully by the current post, I think it'd be nice to also have a leaderboard of cumulative score, as well as cumulative rank/pp, just as another interesting leaderboard.
Catgirl
i just skimmed through this whole thread and i see so many people who don't play all modes being extremely butthurt about this whole idea of adding in support for something that won't affect them at all.

i would be in support of somewhere, a page that shows the top 10k in performance across all game modes, like how we have this page for each individual mode. (who cares how it's calculated, it's going to be a flawed system anyway since pp is the base and it's already flawed itself) i think it would be easy to just have it be similar to the score rankings, where you can't easily find yourself, but you can search through the leaderboards and find where you would be. it would be cool to see who is #1, #2, and so on, all the way down through the list.

showing it on user profiles' wouldn't really work right now because i'm not sure where to put it, but maybe it could fit somewhere in osu!next because there definitely seems to be space on the new profiles.

if you're some rank 6k in standard who is gonna get super salty about not having any pp in other modes and therefore not being in a top 10k total performance leaderboards, don't go telling other people it's a terrible idea just for that reason. assuming we already had this leaderboard, i know you wouldn't be looking at it anyway. people who won't use something shouldn't decide if it should be a thing or not.

another point that has kinda been mentioned but i want to elaborate on is pp scaling in the individual modes. i'm referring to how getting a play that's worth 200pp is worth more when you have no other 200pp scores, compared to getting the same 200pp play when you have tons of 250pp+ scores. when you have very low playcount in a mode, it's a lot easier to gain that raw pp, which is why pp in each mode is weighted.

assuming this were to be implemented just based on pp in each mode, i propose to weight each mode's pp total similarly. for example, let's say that a player has the following pp amount in the 4 modes:
osu! - 5000
taiko - 2500
ctb - 500
mania - 2000

if you just add them together then the player would have 10000 total pp. but an increase from 5000 to 5500 pp in osu! would be much more valuable than an increase from 500 to 1000 pp in ctb. because of this i think a weighting would make sense, not sure what the weights should be, because you still want to reward people who play all modes but at the same time ignoring how easy it can be to gain pp at much lower ranks.

i might throw some stars when i get home cause i have a ton. are stars even important anymore?
mizuki-chan
+??? stars, i threw all on this
i decided to vote for this because i thought about this idea is really great !
think about it...there are the respective rankings for all the game modes like the whole time, but a additional ranking for "alltogether" would encourage the playing of the other modes. i think it would bring some fresh wind with it, plus it wont hurt the "only std players" or "only taiko players" because they still have their respective ranking for that. seriously, please add this xd

and this comes from an only std player. . .
mulraf
just now i read through all the older posts. i strongly disagree with the people saying it would be unjust since the ones who are only concentrating on one game made won't be high in there. it's just an extra - you will still be high within your own category. if people care about ctb and you are a good ctb player, then they'll look at the ctb rankings. if people want to know about allrounders they'd just look into this new category.
if you only concentrate on osu!std and you dislike this because you won't be high in the cumulative ranking, why don't you dislike the taiko ranking? you aren't high up in there either. to you it should just be some kind of extra that you can look at if you're interested or not look at if you aren't.
there are many people who play more than just one gamemode who would be interested in seeing the best 'allrounders' who are high in each category. once i asked about good people in every gamemode in #osu and a short discussion started. if you weigh them individually - the benefit of having an 'own place' for the allrounders who tend to everything osu has to offer and a new interesting category to look at people who are skilled at different things. the disadvantage of players who concentrate on one category being "only" good at 1 ranking. which weighs heavier? is it even a disadvantage or just justified? i think as long as this cumulative rank isn't seen as more important than the individual single gamemodes, everything is fine. so i'd say if you don't name this new category "overall" or something but rather something like "mixed" or idk it should be fine (since if new people come to the osu website and they see "overall" in the ranking, they are gonna assume the "overall" best players are naturally the best players overall. guess you can see why i dislike that).
Seijiro
10k pp club, here I come x)
I see no evil in this request and as mentioned before, if it's something you don't want to do there's no one obliging you, so why not. I'd be curious to see how many allrounders are around in the game.
Luvdic
Hello.

So, I haven't read the whole posts and discussion so far, only the last page and the first post, and from what I can see at glance is that the usage of pp is flawed if we are to calculate the cumulative ranks through all game modes. The main reason being that pp gained through the four modes are NOT normalized.

I just wanted to point out the the possibility of using the ranks in each mode as the measure instead of pp at each mode, meaning this:

CP (cumulative points) = 1/(rank in standard) + 1/(rank in taiko) + 1/(rank in ctb) + 1/(rank in mania)
If any term results in 0 because of no rank achieved in that mode, it should default to 0
And then rank players based on their CP.

I think this way it will help normalize a bit the parameters as well as rewarding more to those players that has a high rank in a specific mode.
Ex:

I have the following ranks:
standard: 2000 (~5800pp)
ctb: 10000 (~1000pp)
taiko: 30000 (~800pp)
mania: 0
CP = 0.0006333
Total pp = 7600

My friend has the following ranks:
standard: 0
ctb: 2000 (~2300pp)
taiko: 2500 (~3500pp)
mania: 0
CP = 0.0009
Total pp = 5800

This means that my friend should be ranked higher than me in the cumulative rank, which makes sense as having 2 modes ranked at ~2000 is more impressive in my opinion.

Anyways, it should be polished a bit more as people in the top 10 will be weighted too good, etc etc etc. But my point is that using pp as the parameter is not the way to go for this. (Maybe setting it so that it is 1/(100+rank in mode) can help offset a bit, but idk, will require real testings to fine tune it.
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