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Cumulative rank

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153
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +1,191
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Bobbias
An average rank makes slightly more sense (but still is nearly pointless), but a rank determined by simply adding your ranks for each mode together makes no sense at all. Each gamemode has a variable number of players active, meaning ranks in each mode have different levels of value. If you're ranked 3k in std, that is worth a LOT more than 3k in mania. Also, how do you handle players who only play some of the modes, but not all?

baraatje123 wrote:

2.) It shows who is the best all-rounder
This assumes that ranks are actually a useful measure of skill. They aren't.

baraatje123 wrote:

3.) Adds a new ranking to the game
A new ranking that is entirely tied to other rankings, which makes it lose most of it's meaning.

baraatje123 wrote:

4.) Supports people to play all modes, like me
Assuming everyone cares about ranking in the first place. It hardly adds any real value to the game since it's just doing a bit of math for you.

It doesn't add any new mechanics to the game, nor does it add anything particularly useful (such as editor improvements, new mods, etc.). I suppose the one thing it has going for it is that it would be relatively easy to implement.
Topic Starter
Bara-
It doesn't add up the ranks
It adds up the pp
nrl
That's just as bad.
Syphist
I like this idea. It wouldn't personally affect me, but I think it would be a cool feature.
touzkue
Support +5
buny
It's like a slap in the face when the only game mode is play is standard, yet say a 10k ranker is higher than me in a ranking scoreboard that I don't care about.

If this is implemented, at the very least don't include players that don't actually have performance in all modes.

I don't want some ugly 5/6 digit rank in my profile simply because I don't play other modes.
Makou
i support you to the very end baraatje123 :3 i like the idea
Xheriux
Good idea :3
Topic Starter
Bara-

buny wrote:

It's like a slap in the face when the only game mode is play is standard, yet say a 10k ranker is higher than me in a ranking scoreboard that I don't care about.

If this is implemented, at the very least don't include players that don't actually have performance in all modes.

I don't want some ugly 5/6 digit rank in my profile simply because I don't play other modes.
This is to support all-modeing
So IMO it should do it for EVERYONE,

Makou wrote:

i support you to the very end baraatje123 :3 i like the idea

slapper334 wrote:

Good idea :3
Thank you!
Novalogic

buny wrote:

I don't want some ugly 5/6 digit rank in my profile simply because I don't play other modes.
What he said

And one more thing - we can already call an all rounder someone, who plays standard mode, and excels in all of the elements: streaming, aiming, single tapping, alternating and so on. Dunno about the other play modes, but i think you could find something like that as well.
Topic Starter
Bara-

Novalogic wrote:

buny wrote:

I don't want some ugly 5/6 digit rank in my profile simply because I don't play other modes.
What he said

And one more thing - we can already call an all rounder someone, who plays standard mode, and excels in all of the elements: streaming, aiming, single tapping, alternating and so on. Dunno about the other play modes, but i think you could find something like that as well.

Lolwut?

Also, if you play CTB only once and got 1pp, you also have an 'ugly' 6-digit rank, do I do NOT see the problem there
This ofc also applies to the other modes
nrl
The point is that there isn't any way to implement a cumulative rank that would hold any meaning as a ranking metric. The inherent dissimilarity of osu!'s game modes invalidates the very notion of a cumulative rank.
Topic Starter
Bara-

Narrill wrote:

The point is that there isn't any way to implement a cumulative rank that would hold any meaning as a ranking metric. The inherent dissimilarity of osu!'s game modes invalidates the very notion of a cumulative rank.
I think Tom should be able to tweak it, if there is a need for it tbh, which I don't think it's neccessary
theramdans
Interesting, but how about those people who mostly only play 1/2 modes
like, the most top-tier pro players plays osu! mode mostly
some plays ctb mode mostly!
same goes for o!m and taiko
Sea_Food

theramdans wrote:

Interesting, but how about those people who mostly only play 1/2 modes
like, the most top-tier pro players plays osu! mode mostly
some plays ctb mode mostly!
same goes for o!m and taiko
If you dont plat taiko, you dont look at your taiko rank. If you dont play o!m you dont look at your o!m rank. If you dont play all modes, you dont look at your cumulative rank.
MBomb
I like the idea, gave a few stars =P
buny

baraatje123 wrote:

Lolwut?

Also, if you play CTB only once and got 1pp, you also have an 'ugly' 6-digit rank, do I do NOT see the problem there
This ofc also applies to the other modes
this rank disappears because of the inactivity playing the game mode
since we'll be playing at least 1 game mode, your suggestive ranking will still stay there.

I'm all for the idea, but not in a layout where it includes everybody and in plain vision also. If rank is that much of an incentive to play, then you shouldn't play at all because this game is meant to be for fun and not to farm pp in each mode to get a new rank
Sea_Food

buny wrote:

baraatje123 wrote:

Lolwut?

Also, if you play CTB only once and got 1pp, you also have an 'ugly' 6-digit rank, do I do NOT see the problem there
This ofc also applies to the other modes
this rank disappears because of the inactivity playing the game mode
since we'll be playing at least 1 game mode, your suggestive ranking will still stay there.

I'm all for the idea, but not in a layout where it includes everybody and in plain vision also. If rank is that much of an incentive to play, then you shouldn't play at all because this game is meant to be for fun and not to farm pp in each mode to get a new rank
<you should not care about ranks
<this idea will not do because then i would have a rank that is not very good. I only want good ranks in my profile page.

This logic is just amazing
Topic Starter
Bara-
Thanks! ^
Sea_Food, than you
Probably the best post in this topic why it should NOT NOT be added
Topic Starter
Bara-
Bump
As for the typo above, ThanK you
Dracool_old_1
I like this idea too as on occasion i play other modes too and a cumulative rank sounds good. Got my vote.
Beautiful
I play all modes and i disagree with this request.

This idea is bad because they are so different games.
As someone said, pp differs wildly across all osu!'s game modes.

It is unnecessary.
xasuma
I very much dislike this. I have no interest in other modes and I don't want to be shoved in an average of 4 modes, when I only play 25% of them. They already have their own individual rankings and that should be good enough.
silmarilen
how about making it weighted by the playcount you have in a certain mode?
Sea_Food

silmarilen wrote:

how about making it weighted by the playcount you have in a certain mode?
This would be pretty much against the whole idea of this feature. Which is that you try to get pp in many modes to increase rank.
Luna
Would be fun; support.
Although, as mentioned before, pp weighting between modes would need some work for the ranking to be at least somewhat balanced.
And to address the issues of people who don't want a cumulative rank since they don't play all modes - how about we just make the cumulative rank decay/disappear whenever one of your mode ranks does the same? So, you won't have a cumulative rank unless you have "active" ranks in all modes?
Topic Starter
Bara-
That's good, the need of all mode-ranks
But pp weighting would be weird, as my best scores will ve taiko only, and some ctb
Effy
What a great idea, here some stars >A<
Topic Starter
Bara-
Time for a little bump
iJXL
Support!

Shooting starssss~ :)
Drezi
I think a cumulative rank in itself does make sense, since the rhythm based gameplay and ranking metric of the four game modes is similar enough. Rankings/competition based on a set of skills is not unheard of, nor pointless - it's present even in the Olympics, namely as Triathlon and Modern pentathlon.

HOWEVER.

Including everyone in all-mode rankings is wrong, and should not ever happen. Why? There are lots of people (including me) who have no interest at all in game modes other than standard, thus ranking multi-mode players above us would be like ranking a Triathlon athele above every pure Swimmer/Cyclist/Runner. I hope you can see how bad that would be. The purpose of such a sport/ranking is to compare ONLY THOSE who actually decided to competitively participate in all the subcategories involved.

So you can make a ranking among yourselves, all-mode players, but don't try to include those who don't play all-mode.
GhostFrog

Drezi wrote:

Including everyone in all-mode rankings is wrong, and should not ever happen. Why? There are lots of people (including me) who have no interest at all in game modes other than standard, thus ranking multi-mode players above us would be like ranking a Triathlon athele above every pure Swimmer/Cyclist/Runner. I hope you can see how bad that would be. The purpose of such a sport/ranking is to compare ONLY THOSE who actually decided to competitively participate in all the subcategories involved.

So you can make a ranking among yourselves, all-mode players, but don't try to include those who don't play all-mode.
The triathlete analogy is subtly flawed - a swimmer is not a triathlete and if a swimmer one day decides to go for a short bike ride and then for a run, he is still not a triathlete. If you play any of the 4 osu! game modes, you're an osu! player.

The interesting thing is that if this overall rank were implemented, viewpoints like the one you expressed in your post would become less common. I haven't checked this thread much recently, but iirc, the most common objection to an overall ranking (or perhaps the only objection aside from concerns over implementation details) is that it's unfair for players who only play one mode to have a bad overall rank listed on their profile. I honestly can't see how that's a problem unless people seeing every game mode as legitimate is a problem - think about it, that bad rank on your profile would only mean anything to someone who believes all 4 modes are legitimate parts of osu! and the opposition to this feature is primarily (not entirely but mostly) thinly-veiled osu!standard-centricism. Having an all-mode ranking would go a long way towards making all 4 modes seem like legitimate parts of osu! rather than a core game with 3 undesirable siblings. If you wanted to know who was better at osu!standard, you would look at osu!standard rankings. If you wanted to know who was better overall at the 4 osu! game modes, you would look at the overall ranking.





My only concerns with this request are pp-related (things like making sure pp scaling is uniform across all modes). If/when pp is accurate enough and consistent enough across modes, overall ranking could just be based on the sum or average (probably average) of your pp totals for each mode.
Topic Starter
Bara-
About the bad rank
If you play ctb once or twice, you get 1 pp for example, giving you rank 500k or smth
So you don't care about that bad rank, but you do care about a bad rank in total
Come on please

Yeah, pp scaling might need to be adjusted a little for this, but idk how exactly ;-;
Luna
Since the concern of "unjust" low ranks is coming up again, lemme quote myself here.

Luna wrote:

And to address the issues of people who don't want a cumulative rank since they don't play all modes - how about we just make the cumulative rank decay/disappear whenever one of your mode ranks does the same? So, you won't have a cumulative rank unless you have "active" ranks in all modes?
Drezi

GhostFrog wrote:

The triathlete analogy is subtly flawed - a swimmer is not a triathlete and if a swimmer one day decides to go for a short bike ride and then for a run, he is still not a triathlete. If you play any of the 4 osu! game modes, you're an osu! player.
I don't want to go into further analogies, since there will always be aspects where the cases being compared differ, but I think my main point here is pretty clear.
You can categorise everyone as an "osu! player", but it doesn't change the fact that the 4 game modes are distinct games on their own, bundled together. An osu! standard player is completely different from an osu! mania player. And as you said, if an osu! standard player decides to play some others mods too, it still doesn't make him an all-mode player and should not be included in the same ladder, since their efforts are not comparable.
Yes playing one or more games included in osu! connects them, but that's not more relevant for the sake of rankings than playing games connecting people as being "gamers".

GhostFrog wrote:

the most common objection to an overall ranking (or perhaps the only objection aside from concerns over implementation details) is that it's unfair for players who only play one mode to have a bad overall rank listed on their profile. I honestly can't see how that's a problem unless people seeing every game mode as legitimate is a problem
Every game mode is a legitimate part of osu!, but they are different games and they have their own ladders. Not everyone is interested in playing different games apart from the one of their choice, so yes it is unfair to compare someone who only practices one game mode with someone who is interested in all of them. Ranking an osu! standard player together with an all-mode player is not much different, than trying to rank an osu! standard player together with someone who plays stepmania and sound voltex and some standalone taiko game too. Playing different games within osu is optional just like playing separate rhythm games, and not a necessity of being a good "osu! player", thus no ranking should indicate otherwise.
Drezi

Luna wrote:

Since the concern of "unjust" low ranks is coming up again, lemme quote myself here.

Luna wrote:

And to address the issues of people who don't want a cumulative rank since they don't play all modes - how about we just make the cumulative rank decay/disappear whenever one of your mode ranks does the same? So, you won't have a cumulative rank unless you have "active" ranks in all modes?
Yes, sorry I missed that, that's what I proposed too - only rank players together who actually actively play all-modes.
Minhtam
Would love to see this happen, but our current pp systems aren't ready for this. Taiko pp has yet to be properly readjusted.
Reign
Promoted.
Eni
This sounds really cool. It will help promote players to actually play something other than osu!standard and reward those that already do. :)

Maybe there can be a section for Cumulative Rank on the new site?
Topic Starter
Bara-
Bump
I just came across this searching for an other thread
Time to bring this back up
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