Okay so after months of enduring this I'm going to honestly say how I feel without sugarcoating anything, because this is getting pretty stupid.

richardfeder wrote:

It's correct then that all. If you want every pattern is both technical correct and perfectly handy, or easy-play, then that's 'plain like shit'.

Ok so I'll make a map for a speedcore song and make all of the notes as left hand trills when it's 300 BPM 1/4 speed, because anything else that is easier would be a bland pattern, right?

If you seriously think that a pattern can't be both technically accurate and comfortable to hit, then you're either naive, inexperienced, close-minded or all three.

Bursts are bursts they meant to be hard if you want it rearranged then do on your own don't force others to do so.

Brb changing the 1/16 bursts in AiAe to all one column instead of 12341234 because bursts are meant to be hard and not as comfortable to hit as possible while maintaining a high NPS. K

Stop thinking like this. Patterns play a huge role in how hard/fun the map is, not just note density, and they should always reflect the music while being intuitive and smooth for players to hit as much as possible. This mentality of 'it's hard because it's hard' is ridiculous and just makes it seem like you really don't know what you're doing other than making something that has a high star rating. Rigid patterns like the bursts in Spy's 4K become frustrating to play, kills the replay value, and simply reduces it to something that you can get PP from and never touch ever again.

@Liese, stop being so goddamn childish. Your map got unqualified, big deal. Quitting the game and deleting your maps because of that is a hilariously gross overreaction and just makes you look immature.

I really didn't want to post this but the way you people are treating this is incredibly frustrating.

sounds like a lot of mad cuz bad in here

stepmania

the point of making a map is not to make it as hard as possible, just make a goddamn good map that doesn't suck ok

razlteh wrote:

the point of making a map is not to make it as hard as possible, just make a goddamn good map that doesn't suck ok

i seldom see you all do like what you said...
....我差点笑出声

victorica_db wrote:

razlteh wrote:

the point of making a map is not to make it as hard as possible, just make a goddamn good map that doesn't suck ok

i seldom see you all do like what you said...
....我差点笑出声

indeed but i usually don't go for rank, the only map where i'm doing that is freedom dive

Agka wrote:

richardfeder wrote:

And last but not least, the patterns that are used in spy's difficulty, although may have space of improvement, are not that bad to result in a unqualified. Patterns are troll but they fit the song aren't they?!

Did you know you can un-troll those patterns and still fit the song?

Yes I fully admitted that we can but un-troll doesn't equal to better at least for some people and I think being legit troll or just un-troll is personal preference there's no better or worse

Fullerene- wrote:

Ok so I'll make a map for a speedcore song and make all of the notes as left hand trills when it's 300 BPM 1/4 speed, because anything else that is easier would be a bland pattern, right?

Do it I am looking forward to that wow hue \:D/

Fullerene- wrote:

If you seriously think that a pattern can't be both technically accurate and comfortable to hit, then you're either naive, inexperienced, close-minded or all three.

This is clearly a misread when did I say that could you quote?

Fullerene- wrote:

Brb changing the 1/16 bursts in AiAe to all one column instead of 12341234 because bursts are meant to be hard and not as comfortable to hit as possible while maintaining a high NPS. K

You are going too extreme who ever try to do anything like that???????

Fullerene- wrote:

Stop thinking like this. Patterns play a huge role in how hard/fun the map is, not just note density, and they should always reflect the music

Both mappers do a good job on that

Fullerene- wrote:

while being intuitive and smooth for players to hit as much as possible.

Intuitive part yes. Others are just YOUR preference and interpretation don't force anyone to follow your idea

Fullerene- wrote:

This mentality of 'it's hard because it's hard' is ridiculous and just makes it seem like you really don't know what you're doing other than making something that has a high star rating. Rigid patterns like the bursts in Spy's 4K become frustrating to play, kills the replay value, and simply reduces it to something that you can get PP from and never touch ever again.

They are all experienced mappers and this is just your assumptions. You feel frustrated then make your own pattern that satisfied yourself I say this again don't force others to map like you.

Fullerene- wrote:

I really didn't want to post this but the way you people are treating this is incredibly frustrating.

You too I am especially frustrated and shocked when I see your insulting. Please stop. Who is the one that being childish?

I won't let this go easily. I know that we may never reach a consensus but at least we are discussing a issue and we recognize the gap between our understanding of mapping. Then what are you doing here? Learn to respect that's not the way how we solve the problem!

@hutunohito I never say the mapset as a whole is prefect. I am saying the particular pattern that we are discussing is legit and understandable. Everyone makes mistake you can find problem doesn't mean anything we can all dig out problems and be nazi. If my words sound offensive then please accept my apology. Also this is not about famous or not we all know that community and stuffs are doing their best to help everyone, and my "priority" is aiming at maps but not mappers. Good maps deserve priority to be approval =/= famous mappers deserve priority. And every maps have the equal rights to receive help. I want to clarify that if I make you confused I am sorry

victorica_db wrote:

razlteh wrote:

the point of making a map is not to make it as hard as possible, just make a goddamn good map that doesn't suck ok

i seldom see you all do like what you said...
....我差点笑出声

哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈victorica why you so pro?

razlteh wrote:

indeed but i usually don't go for rank, the only map where i'm doing that is freedom dive

..this is mapping basic..not just for rank..

@richard
i don't think people judge whether good map or not based on equal view

For example,
when sister's noise ranked(17VA's),i noticed LN mistake soon,but yoshilove couldn't before rank(he had modded)
we thought many people have prejudice that is based on mapper's name.
Because of this,he couldn't think 17VA had some issues...

so maybe good map is based on how popular mapper is
not true nice pattern,nice rhythm
nice pattern called by people is based on this

speed rank good map=speed rank popular mapper's map,IMO

hutunohito wrote:

@richard
i don't think people judge whether good map or not based on equal view

For example,
when sister's noise ranked(17VA's),i noticed LN mistake soon,but yoshilove couldn't before rank(he had modded)
we thought many people have prejudice that is based on mapper's name.
Because of this,he couldn't think 17VA had some issues...

so maybe good map is based on how popular mapper is
not true nice pattern,nice rhythm
nice pattern called by people is based on this

speed rank good map=speed rank popular mapper's map,IMO

I would be sad if they are true but it indeed happened sometimes. What we can do is try our best to avoid this from happening.
And yes a completely unknown mapper has as lower chance to get a speed rank, that's kind of reward to well-known mappers(? but they try hard and put effort in their mapping that's why they are popular today. Things won't happen without reasons.

"so maybe good map is based on how popular mapper is
not true nice pattern,nice rhythm
nice pattern called by people is based on this"
This is never true at least for me. Trust me.

richardfeder wrote:

"so maybe good map is based on how popular mapper is
not true nice pattern,nice rhythm
nice pattern called by people is based on this"
This is never true at least for me. Trust me.

i trust you,but others...

This has taken an interesting turn.

This invokes a question that is summed up as; "When dealing with a suggestion or issue, who should you be listening to, yourself or other people as experienced as yourself?"
Well, I know this has a subjective answer. A lot of people will say that the author rules over the commentary of other people, where other people will say (this is probably where I stand) that a mapper can not overrule consensus.

At this point, at least with richardfeder, I can agree to disagree over this.

Agka wrote:

This has taken an interesting turn.

This invokes a question that is summed up as; "When dealing with a suggestion or issue, who should you be listening to, yourself or other people as experienced as yourself?"
Well, I know this has a subjective answer. A lot of people will say that the author rules over the commentary of other people, where other people will say (this is probably where I stand) that a mapper can not overrule consensus.

At this point, at least with richardfeder, I can agree to disagree over this.

I'll take this stance as well.

@richard, in hindsight that comment on IRC was totally uncalled for and I apologize for that. In the stepmania communities I come from, most people choose smooth patterns over anything else so that it's more accessible to play on higher song speeds. Obviously here that can't exactly be the same since DT is only a 1.5x multiplier and can't be adjusted, as well as not giving any actual advantages.

utterly ignored

There's no use to mod this

hutunohito wrote:

There's no use to mod this

We can still hope, can't we?

Paulmrm wrote:

hutunohito wrote:

There's no use to mod this

We can still hope, can't we?

nope liese is not coming

After think twice these days,I'll go to requalify these,just for players.
No matter how you think my map,you're not the best.And me too.
It won't have any result here.
You can think I'm retarded,you can hate me.
I have my opinions.
But I know you guys don't like it.
I think mapping like as composing,so I'm not focus on patterns.
Just these,so I know much players only care about patterns.
It is easy to understand,I'm not stupid.
But just remember,I never map unplayable/unrankable maps.
It always have players can play it.

Just these,thanks richardfeder,and everyone helped me.
And my sensei Lieselotte/Y.Hime/Luyuja.

I'll fix my diff with new patterns by request my sensei.
They have more mapping experience than everyone here.
Just thanks others' mods first.

So.. from what I'm reading, all the feedback is, "it's not consistent," or, "it's too hard." The song is not consistent, argument one down. "It's too hard," is just.. mind-boggling to use as an argument, to me.

ApocalypseAP wrote:

So.. from what I'm reading, all the feedback is, "it's not consistent," or, "it's too hard." The song is not consistent, argument one down. "It's too hard," is just.. mind-boggling to use as an argument, to me.

Have no idea.
Also I don't understand why someone always focus on "popular mapper".
It made me feel someone seems jealousy.

Spy wrote:

ApocalypseAP wrote:

So.. from what I'm reading, all the feedback is, "it's not consistent," or, "it's too hard." The song is not consistent, argument one down. "It's too hard," is just.. mind-boggling to use as an argument, to me.

Have no idea.
Also I don't understand why someone always focus on "popular mapper".
It made me feel someone seems jealousy.

yeah,but not only my jealous also complaining fast-rhythmissue-rank
it started when
"Sakura Mirage was submitted after i reqed my map(bubble)
and Sakura Mirage was ranked before my map wasn't even checked"
i hated popular mapper
And i found many rhythm issue,not pattern
"why is my perfect rhythm map ignored while wrong rhythm map ranked!?"
i thought
...until 9/10
now i don't touch this never,but don't forget all mappers do their best.
The best solution is not only speed rank good map(it's nice thing) but also check all map equal...
please><

hutunohito wrote:

yeah,but not only my jealous also complaining fast-rhythmissue-rank
it started when
"Sakura Mirage was submitted after i reqed my map(bubble)
and Sakura Mirage was ranked before my map wasn't even checked"
i hated popular mapper
And i found many rhythm issue,not pattern
"why is my perfect rhythm map ignored while wrong rhythm map ranked!?"
i thought
...until 9/10
now i don't touch this never,but don't forget all mappers do their best.
The best solution is not only speed rank good map(it's nice thing) but also check all map equal...
please><

I don't know near 2 months is speed rank,if I want to speed rank,I'll do same speed request to BATs as Second Heaven.
Just remember,I also had same moment as you before,I endured it and keep mapping till now.
I don't care about you hate me or not,but I can say it here,I don't like you too.
About this map,I said I have already discussed about it to PROGUY.
And he discussed about it to QAT too,finally they decided not to unqualify it,just forgot to tell to Loctav,so Loctav unqualified it.

I don't know why you be cynical here.
But just remember,I also did my best,not only you,please don't think other mappers didn't do their best.
If you want to complain about it here,I just recommend you to map a new map,you're wasting your time.
And I'm going to fix the diff,bye.

there's nothing wrong with the rhythm in this map ==
its just you map according to pitch all the time.

Rumia- wrote:

there's nothing wrong with the rhythm in this map ==
its just you map according to pitch all the time.

And almost 2 months not a fast speed ranking! you should know that!

What a nice drama

This is pretty amusing to read lel

Spy wrote:

After think twice these days,I'll go to requalify these,just for players.

Thumbs up for this tho =w=)b

-Kamikaze- wrote:

This is pretty amusing to read lel

Spy wrote:

After think twice these days,I'll go to requalify these,just for players.

Thumbs up for this tho =w=)b

OH PLEASE...

PLEASE RESPECT every mapper...
every mapper have their style, if the mapper get lots of mod and the chart is still the same...
then IT MEANS its the mapper's style, there is nothing wrong with it ^^
u cant force ur style into someone's mapping style...

the wrong thing is IF the mapper mapped or make smthg totally unplayable OR not enjoyable...


^^
no need to blame anyone and stop arguing,
any feedback is good....

no need to drama, your map is awesome! and you too!!

for hutunohito I know your feeling too ... just keep patient >< I know your time will come, and there is a time when you and spy be friends!

kalian berdua sangat berpengalaman, masalah kecil kok jadi besar nvm this word.

R.I.P. The best PP map in 2014

This drama took over 100 posts here...

Good luck again for all you people in here~

asd123iii wrote:

What a nice drama

*grab popcorn

goodbye.
awesome map

Mod for Spy's 4K Extra to requalify~ *Rumia said Liese was not coming back but i don't think so... Anw, this is a request from Spy's status*
Let's resurrect this!

This is all i've got
Well, hope this helps you a tiny bit If you don't mind, please add me as your friend >.<

Lunatic Raccoon wrote:

Mod for Spy's 4K Extra to requalify~ *Rumia said Liese was not coming back but i don't think so... Anw, this is a request from Spy's status*
Let's resurrect this!

Osu!

1. 00:16:492 to 00:17:863 - Ok, so i'm gonna try giving you some suggestions here
2. All remaining jacks patterns are: 01:00:377 to 01:01:749 - 02:50:092 to 02:51:463 - 03:12:035 to 03:13:406 - 03:33:977 to 03:35:349 - 03:55:920 to 03:57:292 and 05:23:692 to 05:25:063
3. Not many people can pass this without missing one or more notes -> It's also the reason that Loctav unqualified it right? So let's see...
4. 1st suggestion: Make it a two-one stream: Double go with single note each 1/4 beat
5. 2nd: Focus on zigzag patterns: Instead of double stream, make it to double at coll 1&2 then coll 3&4 each 1/4 beat or coll 1-4 then coll 2-3 or coll 1&3 then coll 2&4
6. 3rd suggestion: Multiple stream: Do a stream of single notes, then double each 1/2 or 1 beat
7. 4th suggestion: Normal stream: Well, i wouldn't really suggest this...
8. Note that each of these 4 suggestions (except the 2nd one) WILL low down the stars of this diff... If you wanna keep it here's some more suggestions
9. Put some doubles/triples at certain points like 00:00:035 (35|2,1406|0,1749|0,2092|0,2435|0,2777|0,3120|0,3463|0) and continue on... or 00:41:863 (41863|3,44606|0) or 01:25:063 (85063|2); 03:58:663 (238663|2)... there maybe still be more
10. Convert some specific doubles -> triples
11. 03:58:663 to 04:20:606 - Put some LNs? This won't help much but at least it adds up some notes to the diff

This is all i've got
Well, hope this helps you a tiny bit If you don't mind, please add me as your friend >.<

Thanks for mod,I remapped those burst parts

bye个蛋啊

前面那么多楼懒得爬了，关于几个纵连段，我个人感觉就是难度和其他部分差距太大才导致的问题(哎爱哎易有话要说)，那么解决办法要么简化纵连段，要么强化整个谱面，下面分开来扯：

方案一：简化纵连段

拿第一个纵连段00:16:492 ~ 00:17:863为例，首先这段几乎都由二连组成，一共包含了12组二连。但是我们惊奇地发现有些地方并没有二连，包括00:17:006 ~ 00:17:092，00:17:349 ~ 00:17:435，00:17:606 ~ 00:17:692，以及00:17:777 ~ 00:17:863。那么问题来了，挖掘机技术到底哪家强为什么这几个地方没有纵连呢，从音乐上面我没找到答案，那么解释只能是为了pattern的美观、合理以及Spy心中残存的人性（
所以第一个思路，现在我们要简化这个部分，只要把没有二连的地方增加就行了，比如把00:16:749 (16749|2,16835|1) - 这两个左移一格，再比如把00:17:177 (17177|3) - 移到1然后把00:17:263 (17263|0) - 移到3这样。

第二个思路，这段除了最明显的主音以外，在00:16:492 - 00:16:749 - 00:17:006 - 00:17:349 - 00:17:606 - 这几个地方有一个比较刺耳的明显的偏高音（我没学过作乐不知道这是啥;w;），另外在所有红线处也有snare音，这里可以做点文章，比如这些时间点保留2~3个note，其余时间点保留1个note，同时全程继续保持纵连，这样不仅大幅简化并且也照顾到其他乐器了。

方案二：强化全体
这个其实有点难，因为通篇看下来除开纵连段，其他pattern难度随着音乐处于一个循序渐进的状态，如果硬是要强化的话建议是前期密度加大变得和后期一样，然后后期更无人性一点做成面点（主旋律短面+鼓点及其他背景乐器单点），而且后期flow不能停，要一直保持节奏连续以及高密度。另外纵连段前的拍砖如果也把主旋律以短面形式做进去，难度会直线上升，但是美观性会差一点。

以上一点拙见仅供参考，希望能提供一点启发~

ljqandylee wrote:

前面那么多楼懒得爬了，关于几个纵连段，我个人感觉就是难度和其他部分差距太大才导致的问题(哎爱哎易有话要说)，那么解决办法要么简化纵连段，要么强化整个谱面，下面分开来扯：

方案一：简化纵连段

拿第一个纵连段00:16:492 ~ 00:17:863为例，首先这段几乎都由二连组成，一共包含了12组二连。但是我们惊奇地发现有些地方并没有二连，包括00:17:006 ~ 00:17:092，00:17:349 ~ 00:17:435，00:17:606 ~ 00:17:692，以及00:17:777 ~ 00:17:863。那么问题来了，挖掘机技术到底哪家强为什么这几个地方没有纵连呢，从音乐上面我没找到答案，那么解释只能是为了pattern的美观、合理以及Spy心中残存的人性（
所以第一个思路，现在我们要简化这个部分，只要把没有二连的地方增加就行了，比如把00:16:749 (16749|2,16835|1) - 这两个左移一格，再比如把00:17:177 (17177|3) - 移到1然后把00:17:263 (17263|0) - 移到3这样。

第二个思路，这段除了最明显的主音以外，在00:16:492 - 00:16:749 - 00:17:006 - 00:17:349 - 00:17:606 - 这几个地方有一个比较刺耳的明显的偏高音（我没学过作乐不知道这是啥;w;），另外在所有红线处也有snare音，这里可以做点文章，比如这些时间点保留2~3个note，其余时间点保留1个note，同时全程继续保持纵连，这样不仅大幅简化并且也照顾到其他乐器了。

方案二：强化全体
这个其实有点难，因为通篇看下来除开纵连段，其他pattern难度随着音乐处于一个循序渐进的状态，如果硬是要强化的话建议是前期密度加大变得和后期一样，然后后期更无人性一点做成面点（主旋律短面+鼓点及其他背景乐器单点），而且后期flow不能停，要一直保持节奏连续以及高密度。另外纵连段前的拍砖如果也把主旋律以短面形式做进去，难度会直线上升，但是美观性会差一点。

以上一点拙见仅供参考，希望能提供一点启发~

我用了方案一，做了很多調整，謝謝堅強哥

lets get this back to where it belongs wwwww
fullrene-'s said he has something to say with spy's diff , so ill check again after his mods
#revivalofbestmap2014

I'll get to the mod likely tomorrow, since I've got some schoolwork to take care of atm.