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Concern over ranked maps.

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Topic Starter
Cyclone
This is almost a word for word post I had made for the members of the Mod Lounge to see. This is a list of things I find in ranked maps that concern me.


Please feel free to comment, discuss, etc. I'm curious as to why these things have become accepted. Just please make sure you read everything I have typed up fully and come to a complete understanding as to why I have an issue with such things before responding. Obviously most of these would have to come into consideration on a situational basis.


Spacing Changes:

(This is worded in a way that was directed at the BATs)
Well, we probably brought this upon ourselves, but people sometimes have a tendency to change spacing by as much as a factor of 2 every other combo. I say we probably brought that upon ourselves since we made the rule "spacing should be consistent throughout a combo," "If you're going to use a jump, start a new combo," etc. So people naturally think "so we just make a new combo and we can change the spacing however we please?" ...well, according to the rule we made, yes.



Hidden Sliders:


OK, if there's a slider under a note, and that slider is a really short repeating slider, it's invisible. Maybe not so much in the editor, but in play there's a giant "300!" blocking your vision. (or whatever judgment your timing received)

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2314

Less hidden, but almost as hard to read are 1 circle and 1 slider 1/2 apart in length (think roughly 160 BPM) and the slider endpoint is overtop/underneath the circle. The question is: Is it over or under? Very hard to distinguish at a glance, meaning very hard to read correctly during play.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2316 (oh hey look, this is also used in another point entirely involving spinners.)



Random Jumps:


Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song, especially since much of what I see nowadays does not even take the song itself into consideration. I've seen 4 notes play normally as one would expect, then in a complete turnaround, WITHOUT THE SONG CHANGING A BEAT, jumps all over the place. I mean, hell, the pitch won't even change sometimes. This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.



Slider Speeds:


People seem to have some notion that changing slider velocity every other beat is a GOOD THING. I've asked SEVERAL TIMES why?, but I never get a straightforward answer. I want one. Somebody please help me on this.




Zig-Zag Streams:


These are streams (think faster streams, upwards of marisa speed) that have every other note aligned in 2 separate rows are columns in such a way you have to zig-zag your cursor. Unfortunately, zig-zag'ing like that is near impossible, so players are forced to find the middle point between the 2 rows, and move in a straight line. This means that the size on the hitcircle essentially is REDUCED, by as much as 80% sometimes.

Notes 4-15: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2313



Spinners:


I've always hated spinners. This is the number 1 way mappers try to add difficulty to a song that doesn't need it. We made a rule "auto+2000." People push that rule to the absolute limit. They'll make a spinner that gets +2000, however, JUST BARELY. By that I mean I WON'T EVEN HEAR THE DING SOUND for the 2000. Then they'll add notes that are 1/4 a beat after the spinner. If the spinner HAS the be that short, and the hitsound OF the spinner is part of the rhythm of the next notes, then WHY is there a spinner at all?

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2316 (notes just after spinner)



Too Many Difficulties:


Mainly the result of Guest Difficulties, which is why I tried taking an extreme stance against them a while back. Mappers will accept, or even ASK for difficulties in which they've already done. There should only be ONE insane. There should only be ONE hard. So on and so forth. I'm pretty sure I've seen a map with like 4 insanes before.

http://up.ppy.sh/files/untitled-56.jpg



Combo Colors:


http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2347
Notice the white on white, and the black on black.
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2348
Notice how hard the approach circle is to see.

Basically you shouldn't have to struggle to see the circles or the approach circles. This should take the BG into account.



If i think of more, i will add it here.
Nakata Yuji
I definitely agree with the zigzag streams.
If you look into the rankings for that song, you can see that that map is not all FC's, which it would be if it weren't like that.

I don't really see a problem with multiple difficulties; if there's more than one, then there's more to enjoy. There's 3 maps for agony - KOTOKO, which I have no problem with.


One thing I want to say is that I hate when you can't read a map.
For example,
That's ridiculous, I wouldn't be able to do it unless I go into the Editor, and I still probably won't be able to get it.
Topic Starter
Cyclone

Nakata Yuji wrote:

I don't really see a problem with multiple difficulties; if there's more than one, then there's more to enjoy. There's 3 maps for agony - KOTOKO, which I have no problem with.
I was more refering to the fact that a single mapset sometimes has 3 insanes for example, not the same song having 3 mapsets.
Nakata Yuji

Cyclone wrote:

Nakata Yuji wrote:

I don't really see a problem with multiple difficulties; if there's more than one, then there's more to enjoy. There's 3 maps for agony - KOTOKO, which I have no problem with.
I was more refering to the fact that a single mapset sometimes has 3 insanes for example, not the same song having 3 mapsets.
Yes, I understand that too. But there is little difference; it's multiple insanes for the same song, in essence.
Unless this detracts from the quality of other maps, then there is no problem in my opinion. 5 insanes does seem to cross the line though.
MegaManEXE
Spacing Changes:
I think they're generally used okay...but maybe that's because I've gotten very good at reading approach circles that the spacing changes don't bother me too much.

Hidden Sliders:
I know, I know, I screwed up there. I saw them okay when I played but I can't assume everyone uses the same skin and score explosion graphic that I do.

Random Jumps:
I think if you're going to make a jumpy difficulty you should make the whole thing jumpy, not just throw them randomly around throughout it. Jumps only tend to fit very specific parts of songs and should be used appropriately.

Slider Speeds:
Changing slider speeds piss me off unless the actual music changes in speed. I modded a map recently that had a .5x speed slider in a 2x bpm section, that one was really weird to play. @_@

Zigzag Streams:
I kind of like those ones D:, like the ones in Hardware Store, right?

Too many Diffs:
I don't mind a lot of diffs, it gives me a fallback in case I can't fc the hardest one. But it is rather annoying to mod a map with like 6 diffs, so I can see the issue.

Combo Colors:
110% agreed. I dislike using gray because of tag, and black is like the worst combo color ever for almost anything.
Edit: This goes for if there are kiai/skin/storyboard elements too.
Ekaru
Thing is, it's not like there's an Easy, Normal, Hard, and 3 Insanes.

It's usually a "Normal" that is actually a Hard, and then 3 Insanes. Seriously.

I agree with pretty much all of Cyclone's post, BTW. Someone please tell us why on earth randomly changing slider velocity is a good idea. ><;
0_o
I don't have time right now to comment on everything, but I will say that white circles + light background + kiai = AIUHDKAFYBSFKAHBFLIUHDSJ
Wizard Of Orz
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Ph0X
I won't command on all but:

Random jumps:
"Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song"
I don't even know what to say to that. Seriously, can you read this yourself without laughing?
I don't want to sound rude but, really?

streams are also a device for adding difficulty. OD is also a device for adding difficulty, etc.
Don't think I need to add more on that.

I do agree though that putting them at completly random places is lame, but they can be very fun if used corrently (Which is why commonsense > rules at times)
Good examples would be lesjuhs map
s. Caramelldansen (Speedycake Remix) [LESJUH DIFFICULTY!!] if you need a precise one. Or those in wiklund - crystal dimension [insane].


Slider Speeds:
Well I sounded like a noob asking in IRC how to change slidervelocity, realizing after that you meant by changing the bpm to 0.5/2x. This would entirely depend on the base bpm and slider velocity. I'd show you my current map I'm working on as an example, but I need to wake 7 more days before one of my maps gets graveyarded. Like with the random jumps, if it follows a rythm and is used in a constant manner during the entire map, then I believe it's acceptable.


Too many Difficulties:
I would of said yes to that a month ago, when I actually cared about score, but right now, I'd rather have 4 fun beatmaps to play per songs than only 1. But I will still agree with you on this. Though, it would just result in many different versions of the same song (just like badapple or agony).

Combo colors:
Oh god yes.
And also aweful skins.
Beuchi

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:
I've always hated spinners. This is the number 1 way mappers try to add difficulty to a song that doesn't need it. We made a rule "auto+2000." People push that rule to the absolute limit. They'll make a spinner that gets +2000, however, JUST BARELY. By that I mean I WON'T EVEN HEAR THE DING SOUND for the 2000. Then they'll add notes that are 1/4 a beat after the spinner. If the spinner HAS the be that short, and the hitsound OF the spinner is part of the rhythm of the next notes, then WHY is there a spinner at all?
Totally agree with this, I hate spinners and how people use them. =(

0_o wrote:

white circles + light background + kiai = AIUHDKAFYBSFKAHBFLIUHDSJ
That's one of the multiple reasons of why I hate Kiai -w-;

And if I can... I would like to add 2 more things to this list:

Kiai Fountains: Yeah those fountains emphasize the "epic" part of the song, but I want to point this out:
In this case, the Kiai Fountains block those 2 circles (1/1 notes 160bpm, if necessary) and make them really hard to read. >_<

Deathstream overmapping: Okay, streams are cool and all that but when we have a map which is 90% deathstreams... That's not cool anymore. :(

Examples: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5731 - http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

I admit that Red Zone is a "streamy-sounding" song but Massive Wonders isn't, and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S


Well... they aren't probably so strong reasons, so you can ignore them if you want xD...
anonymous_old

Cyclone wrote:

Spacing Changes:

(This is worded in a way that was directed at the BATs)
Well, we probably brought this upon ourselves, but people sometimes have a tendency to change spacing by as much as a factor of 2 every other combo. I say we probably brought that upon ourselves since we made the rule "spacing should be consistent throughout a combo," "If you're going to use a jump, start a new combo," etc. So people naturally think "so we just make a new combo and we can change the spacing however we please?" ...well, according to the rule we made, yes.
Highly situational and subjective. Destiny has some spacing changes which I and some of my buddies feel are very natural but others are terribly confused by it.

Cyclone wrote:

Hidden Sliders:


OK, if there's a slider under a note, and that slider is a really short repeating slider, it's invisible. Maybe not so much in the editor, but in play there's a giant "300!" blocking your vision. (or whatever judgment your timing received)

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2314
I only accept this if the timings are consistent. 1/2 slider, 1/2 pause, 1/2 slider, 1/2 pause, hit circle, for example.

Cyclone wrote:

Less hidden, but almost as hard to read are 1 circle and 1 slider 1/2 apart in length (think roughly 160 BPM) and the slider endpoint is overtop/underneath the circle. The question is: Is it over or under? Very hard to distinguish at a glance, meaning very hard to read correctly during play.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2316 (oh hey look, this is also used in another point entirely involving spinners.)
These are harder to read for me (maybe due to my skin). Sometimes they work (high OD, 8-10) but most of the time they're horrible and shouldn't be rankable. Not everyone uses snaking sliders.

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:


Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song, especially since much of what I see nowadays does not even take the song itself into consideration. I've seen 4 notes play normally as one would expect, then in a complete turnaround, WITHOUT THE SONG CHANGING A BEAT, jumps all over the place. I mean, hell, the pitch won't even change sometimes. This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.
You can say "Random [Insert some beatmap technique here]" and say it's bad, and it probably is.

Whatever fits.

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:


People seem to have some notion that changing slider velocity every other beat is a GOOD THING. I've asked SEVERAL TIMES why?, but I never get a straightforward answer. I want one. Somebody please help me on this.
Same as with "random jumps".

Cyclone wrote:

Zig-Zag Streams:


These are streams (think faster streams, upwards of marisa speed) that have every other note aligned in 2 separate rows are columns in such a way you have to zig-zag your cursor. Unfortunately, zig-zag'ing like that is near impossible, so players are forced to find the middle point between the 2 rows, and move in a straight line. This means that the size on the hitcircle essentially is REDUCED, by as much as 80% sometimes.

Notes 4-15: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2313
I agree this is a retarded fad.

A good example of how I DO like zig-zag streams: KOTOKO - Princess Bride!

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:


I've always hated spinners. This is the number 1 way mappers try to add difficulty to a song that doesn't need it. We made a rule "auto+2000." People push that rule to the absolute limit. They'll make a spinner that gets +2000, however, JUST BARELY. By that I mean I WON'T EVEN HEAR THE DING SOUND for the 2000. Then they'll add notes that are 1/4 a beat after the spinner. If the spinner HAS the be that short, and the hitsound OF the spinner is part of the rhythm of the next notes, then WHY is there a spinner at all?

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2316 (notes just after spinner)
inorite

Cyclone wrote:

Too Many Difficulties:


Mainly the result of Guest Difficulties, which is why I tried taking an extreme stance against them a while back. Mappers will accept, or even ASK for difficulties in which they've already done. There should only be ONE insane. There should only be ONE hard. So on and so forth. I'm pretty sure I've seen a map with like 4 insanes before.

http://up.ppy.sh/files/untitled-56.jpg
I think subjectivity is part of the reason why this happens. If a bunch of people complain about one insane, and the mapper is stubborn, sometimes another insane will be made. And maybe another.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:


http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2347
Notice the white on white, and the black on black.
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2348
Notice how hard the approach circle is to see.

Basically you shouldn't have to struggle to see the circles or the approach circles. This should take the BG into account.
This should be stopped at the modding stage. Unacceptable.

Either change the combo colours or change the background.

This is why I see value in having many modders, and gives more reason why self-kd-stars shouldn't be there. That's another debate for another time, though.
anonymous_old

Beuchi-chan wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

... Massive Wonders isn't ["streamy-sounding"], and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
Look at the mapper.
Card N'FoRcE

Cyclone wrote:

Spacing Changes:
I noticed that sometimes too, but actually i don't mind. Also, i think we need maps of all kinds, so even this thing shouldn't be a problem if used well.

Cyclone wrote:

Hidden Sliders:
True, but sometimes the slider is visible before getting the 300. The main problem anyway, is finding maps where that works (there are a few, but yeah, i guess sometimes it's as you say)

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:
That's also true, but i don't see the problem anyway. If the mapper wants to be "mean" just let him be. Usually these things are readable anyway so the player has two choices: stop playing that map or accepting the challenge and trying again.

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:
Then let me ask WHY shouldn't this be allowed? Many maps have this feature and many of them use it well, so where's the problem?
Some users find that fun and challenging, other users hate that, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed because of that.

Cyclone wrote:

Zig-Zag Streams:
LOL Usatei. Well, about that, since i'm the mapper, i can say this: that map is from more than a year ago and standards were different. I wanted to make a really hard map for approval, but linear streams were boring, so i tried that (that was my first time using that mapping technique). I put HP Drain 3 to avoid people getting killed for those streams. Also, i can't play that (and many other people can't) but actually the map IS fun (ask people, you should find some who will tell you "That map is really cruel but it's fun", i think). So again, If a mapper wants to be a asshole the player can just avoid playing those maps.

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:
That's true too, and i hate that use of spinners too, but i also have to say that some maps used that thing quite well (I mean, remember Wizards in Winter? That one is still awesome). Again, that's up to the mapper. Actually, the Auto+2000 "rule" still is useless to me, imho spinner only have to be at least 100'd without problems, but that's me (yeah, i don't dislike insta-spinners, as long as they have sense).

Cyclone wrote:

Too Many Difficulties:
What's the problem? OK, since everyone doesn't know that and i'm getting tired of seeing that map being brought up for that reason, here's the story: xxheroxx made that map by himself, it had Easy, Normal and Hard. Then people in #italian thought the song was cool and decided to make more difficulties for that one. It went up to 8 difficulties in a bunch of days. Then, xxheroxx removed Easy and Hard because we got told that a mapset can't have more than 6 difficulties and he didn't want to remove guest difficulties.
I don't know why all difficulties turned out to be insane, but i gues that's what you want to map when you hear the song.
To get it straight, i think some songs call more for Hard and Insane, and other songs fit better with Easy and Normal. Again, as long as the map has two difficulties, i don't care which difficulties they are.
That's my opinion, i know the system is different but i really don't mind if mappers don't feel like adding Normals. I tell that to the mappers because i think adding easier difficulties should be done for common sense.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:
Again that's true and i think this is a completely different matter since it involves a whole map, not just a section o a single beat. When i mod, i often tell players to remove some custom colours that are really hard to see or to use more "regular" BGs. But again, if the mapper want to be mean and wants to leave it, i let him be. That's his own choice. About me, probabily i won't play a map like that (that's why i still haven't played Bad Apple, even though i really wanted to)

Anyway, are these kind of threads becoming a trend?
Everyone always complaining about this and that. If you don't like or you can't play a map just don't play it. I do that often right now: since i'm not good at streams/fast beats i play maps that don't abuse them (and that's a shame, because i like DJpop's maps but i always fail ç_ç)
Please, let mappers try to make something new when they map, that's how a map can become a masterpiece. I'm sure sometimes there are attempts that go failing but in that case i believe that the mapper can be quite mature to decide what to do.
If we start putting too many rules, maps will become more and more plain and boring.

When modding, try to think what the mappers wanted to do with a certain pattern. If it's really so bad, discuss that with him, don't just go and rage about that because of those rules.
Also, these are not rules, but "guidelines"

I think i said everything... If i didn't explain myself well enough, please let me know.
(Please, don't take this message as a rage or anything, it's only my opinion. I'm saying this because it seems i frequently get misunderstood in this kind of threads)
Ph0X
I fully agree with almost everything Card N'FoRcE said. Couldn't of said it any better~
Breeze

0_o wrote:

I don't have time right now to comment on everything, but I will say that white circles + light background + kiai = AIUHDKAFYBSFKAHBFLIUHDSJ
I agree with that. At first I love KIAI time very much, I think that's cool. But I find it's hard to see notes afterwards. Especially light colors notes lol

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:
Anyway, jump could add fun to play game, but too much jumps are boring, I hate whole map jump D:
then also, somebody would like to treat it as challenge. there's nothing wrong with jump, just wish jumps could read in a short time when play

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:
I was thinking a easy diff. should has a slower slider speed, and a faster for harder diff.
high BPM maps with 2xBPM is terrible lol, like Card N'FoRcE said, someone treat they as a challenge. One thing has someone hate and someone liked, that's usual. Let players choose what they like to play.

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:
I totally agree with this, short spinner is too hard, and also a note 1/4 beat to spinner is hard to hit. But some maps really use spinner well even it didn't follow 2000+ bonus rule, such as some Jame's map. Anyway, it's unable to get S, that's true.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:
If I see a black background map with black note, I would suggest mapper to change it
Jarby
Really, all of this stuff is on a per map basis. You can't and shouldn't set up rules to things that can be pulled off well in the first place, never minding the maps that don't. It should be up to the mapper and modding community to decide what does and doesn't work on the specific situation.
Henkie
The things I agree on:

- Hidden sliders (although i play alot on hidden, then the problem is less visible)
- Random Jumps (depends on the timing)
- Slider speeds
- Spinner (I can't spin at all)
- Combo colors (especially annoying on my laptop.. mostly i just have to delete the background to play decently..)

Nothing really more to say.
MegaManEXE

Beuchi-chan wrote:

Deathstream overmapping: Okay, streams are cool and all that but when we have a map which is 90% deathstreams... That's not cool anymore. :(

Examples: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5731 - http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

I admit that Red Zone is a "streamy-sounding" song but Massive Wonders isn't, and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
They make sense to me :<

Maybe that's because I'm used to her style and how she uses streams when the singer holds notes instead of using sliders or spinners.
Topic Starter
Cyclone

JarJarJacob wrote:

Really, all of this stuff is on a per map basis. You can't and shouldn't set up rules to things that can be pulled off well in the first place, never minding the maps that don't. It should be up to the mapper and modding community to decide what does and doesn't work on the specific situation.

Cyclone wrote:

Obviously most of these would have to come into consideration on a situational basis.
On a side note i feel a couple people didn't read my post very well.



Ph0X wrote:

I won't command on all but:

Random jumps:
"Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song"
I don't even know what to say to that. Seriously, can you read this yourself without laughing?
I don't want to sound rude but, really?

streams are also a device for adding difficulty. OD is also a device for adding difficulty, etc.
Don't think I need to add more on that.

I do agree though that putting them at completly random places is lame, but they can be very fun if used corrently (Which is why commonsense > rules at times)
Good examples would be lesjuhs map
s. Caramelldansen (Speedycake Remix) [LESJUH DIFFICULTY!!] if you need a precise one. Or those in wiklund - crystal dimension [insane].
For the jumps, I'm talking about the jumps that ARE indeed at COMPLETE random. Jumps can be fun, yes. They need to make sense though.
Gabi
Spinners
i don't see a problem here. if there is a long vocal, and then a drum beat 1/4 right after the vocal, i think it's appropriate.

2000+ auto spinner is just a guideline, so i have been told by many many BATs.

Too Many Difficulties:
why would this bother anyone? the only thing that is annoying for is the modders. no one is forcing you to play all the difficulties, there is 1 difficultie that gives the most points and that is the only one you need to play. the other diffs are there for fun and for other people who likes other styles to play. it would be much more annoying if 4 different people had to upload their own mapset just because they wanted to make an insane for just that song.

Combo Colors:
this is indeed retarded
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