He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.Tear wrote:
Forums are not a place for a conversation between two people. If you don't want comments from bystanders, go somewhere else.-Hazelnut wrote:
He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.
Hm just controlled+f the whole thread for "peppy" and the only time he was mentioned (other than the xcrypt remark) was from Bobbias, who was actually arguing against the cons I was pointing out. Where did you read that?Loctav wrote:
I love how you all blame peppy for making osu!mania to be super lenient and the maps not being challenging enough.
Per se, nothing on mania has been changed since woc created it. Any blame you put on peppy is actually a blame you put on woc, your overly worshipped random chinese coder, who basically only submitted broken code all over the place (see: osu!mania editor). The only thing you can blame peppy for is the hitsound rule, but thats an old and boring story now.
None of the arguments that took place here were about "hardcoreness" or maps. What was being discussed here is how certain mechanics can contribute to quicker and more proper improvements, and how other mechanics can lead to slower improvements and development of bad habits. Osu wasn't getting bashed here, and none of this was depicting which games are superior to others. I even took the time to point out osu's pros and the other game's cons to enforce this. But it seems only few people got the attention span to read and understand the entirety of my posts. I don't blame them though. They're pretty big.Loctav wrote:
You are also whining because this game is not for hardcorers? That's ridiculous, you just failed to map proper hardcore maps so far. I can understand that here is a portion of people who got used to the bullcrap released on the arcade machines, where the map is optional to the actual song, and the map is only trying to make you rape the buttons harder, whereas you could simply turn off the mp3. You know it is a bit like that. You try to make osu! look like a game that tries to run off the rank of your beloved lunatic rave 2 or o2mania or stepmania, but well. osu! is not an arcade machine. osu! is an emulator like lr2 or o2mania. the difference in lr2 and o2mania: there is no moderation or gatekeeping, every bullshit map is available and playable. Well, this is also happening here. But unless of hyping the bullshit, it usually does simply not get ranked and therefore you call stuff lacking here.
Once in a lifetime, stop complaining. This thread is so pointless. I can not stand this arbitrary and superficial comments anymore. No one will stop you playing lr2, like no one stops Taiko players to play TnT or osu! player Elite Beats Agent. You are complaining about the imperfection of a system that is unique so far (or name me one emulator that has such a community integration.. oh yeh, there is none. o2mania's pool is basically .. is it even still up? I don't know. It was never really working for me. lr2 map page is only in japanese or klingon (for those who can not read japanese) and the community spread over 290294234 little forums, stepmania online ranking was weird, too) Even tho that osu! has not the perfect maps so far, I'd like to remmeber you how Beatmania started with their first arcade machines in the first years. Yes, exactly. With quite easy poop these days.
The video that started this thread is but one of many differences... There's not a single mechanic that works the same here and all the other games, none. Is that a bad thing? Of course it's not. That's the variety and differences I'm pointing out here for crying out loud.Loctav wrote:
You can not expect the osu! community and the handful of mappers to map the insane shit from the very first day. Especialyl when the mentality here is not "harder, faster, stronger" but "quality > difficulty". We are getting more and more difficult maps here, the gameplay mechanics are similiar to BMS (woc actually copied the entire mechanism, I have no idea how much he tested stuff there tho), but I feel no real difference from o2jam to osu!mania tbh, apart of the drain rate and overall difficulty, which is even still variable.
sorry you didn't get drace's pointRiince wrote:
i agree with drace people should just play another game if they want to experience this kind of rhythm game in the way its meant to be experienced...
Why are you apologizing to me?Agka wrote:
sorry you didn't get drace's pointRiince wrote:
i agree with drace people should just play another game if they want to experience this kind of rhythm game in the way its meant to be experienced...
Well, we can blame him for dropping .ogg, which basically killed 95% of keysounded maps, but that's another storyLoctav wrote:
The only thing you can blame peppy for is the hitsound rule, but thats an old and boring story now.
Indeed, he barely read anything just like you. Be proud.Tear wrote:
Loctav says what everyone thinks ♥
Was swearing really necessary here?Tear wrote:
Wtf is your point?
Seriously at this point you're purposely missing the point for who knows why. You honestly think I'd waste my own time to say something so dumb? I’m talking about how we can use certain mechanics to maximize our overall improvement. How other mechanics enforces bad habits, aka deterioration. You said you don’t even care about improving, so this doesn’t even concern you. Yet you’re still here. Is your sole purpose here to troll?Tear wrote:
Other rhythm games exist and we can play them too? Show me a single person that doesn't know that anything other than mania exists.
Right since this whole time I wasn’t talking about gameplay mechanics and influences on overall improvement. Something that you never even touched upon yet. It doesn't mean that you were on-topic simply because you talked about the same elements I talked about. Example: I talked about player ranking vs milestones to show how it influences improvements with motivations and delusions. But then you go on saying something arbitrary like the purpose of PP isn’t for ranking people. With which I still find to be completely ridiculous, but it’s entirely off-topic and devoid of any point in this discussion. That goes for everything else you said too, you never once spoke about what influences player skill.Tear wrote:
And if you don't want me to comment on unrelated things, don't say unrelated things.
I pointed out pros and cons for every game. Just because I pointed out cons for osu first doesn't make it a bashing thread, it's you're own fault for not reading through. Don't get mad at me for your own incapabilities. You and Loctav were the only ones who came in thinking I was bashing. And Loctav most likely only thought so too since he skimmed through the thread and seen your own misinformed posts.Tear wrote:
This became a bashing thread the moment you criticized the lenient mania timing, because it changed the first post video from an innocent joke to toxic and sarcastic commentary. It's obviouspeopleI will see everything after that as more bashing. If you want to change the topic, make another thread.
I agree that not being able to deduce the topic from thread name and OP can prove to be complicated. But that didn't stop the majority from understanding.The topic is sarcastic. Nobody with good, friendly intentions uses sarcasm.
dennischan wrote:
Well actually after reading Drace's criticisms to osu!mania I have to say he's right on only some aspects. It is true that osu!mania's system is not very good for high-tier players like Drace, but the gameplay system is actually good for newbies (like me). It might as well be the case that osu!mania has lenient HP and lenient hit windows. But the good side to this is that newbies can actually play the maps while in more stringent systems, newbies might lose interest in the game since it is SO elite that no newbie can actually play.
And for the video, I am sure no newbie can pass an overjoy by spamming since I can't even stand one second in that map.
Therfore it is a sure fact that osu!mania has it's own pros and cons, and I hold the stance that osu!mania is in-fact better for newbies for improvement.
Too bad most newbies end up only playing shitty auto-converts because they don't know betterdennischan wrote:
Therfore it is a sure fact that osu!mania has it's own pros and cons, and I hold the stance that osu!mania is in-fact better for newbies for improvement.
The better they get the more they'll want out of o!m than just autoconverts, at least that's how it happened to me.HankSpank wrote:
Too bad most newbies end up only playing shitty auto-converts because they don't know better
I'm far from being decent but even I can see that we need harder maps cause watching mwc is kinda sad when most maps are unranked.HankSpank wrote:
Well, time to pack bags and go to LR2/o2jam
Also, it's very strange that there still aren't any ranked songs to satisfy the players that play the hardest ranked songs near perfection, this makes it pretty annoying to rank high for the top-level players. It'd probably make a big difference in rankings if ET songs would get ranked. Difficult song clears>high accuracy
and/or SM =^)HankSpank wrote:
Well, time to pack bags and go to LR2/o2jam
If it was added, I would prefer it would be a beatmap switch instead of a selectable mod (so mappers have to decide between the spam-friendly mechanics and the new ones).Blaizer wrote:
Alright, so let's imagine one day that a new mod for osu!mania was implemented, called Hard Mode or something. What would we put into this mod? Here's what I'm thinking:
Very slight (1-2 frame long) releases of long notes will be allowed for no score loss, but otherwise a miss will be awarded. A miss will also be awarded if the tap part of a long note is missed. No more 50 points for hitting long notes whenever.
If you keep holding a long note past the end, it will not cut off as it does now and award 100 points. It will go to 50, and then to miss if you continue holding it.
There is a penalty for hitting notes that aren't there. This will count as a miss, and the song will be treated as if it had one extra note. This penalty doesn't apply before the start of all notes, after the end of all notes, or within a 1+ second gap of no notes.
Scoring 100 points on a short or long note will break your combo, but won't deduct hp.
Scoring 50 points on a short or long note will break your combo, and deduct 5/6 (83.3%) of the hp a miss would deduct.
What would you add or remove from this?
Your combo (specifically, that number with the X after it at the top of the playfield) doesn't affect your score whatsoever (look up osu!mania scoring if you don't believe me). So breaking your combo is just a visual thing. We could even add combo breaks on 50 in the current osu!mania and it wouldn't change anything (except give you a bit better feedback on doing badly).-Kamikaze- wrote:
I don't like idea of breaking on 50/100 and I'd make judgement on normal notes harder including rainbow 300's. Then I would only play hard mode
Yeah it's just visual, but that's the thing that annoys me in SM - that I lose combo when I get "Good" judgement. I don't mind breaking at 50, becuase that's literally almost hitting, but breaking at 100's will be annoying especially with forced hold releaseBlaizer wrote:
Your combo (specifically, that number with the X after it at the top of the playfield) doesn't affect your score whatsoever (look up osu!mania scoring if you don't believe me). So breaking your combo is just a visual thing. We could even add combo breaks on 50 in the current osu!mania and it wouldn't change anything (except give you a bit better feedback on doing badly).
For avoiding that situation, the note disappears from the chart as soon as you miss it.Blaizer wrote:
I'm not too sure increasing the window of miss would work too well. You'd accidentally miss a note that wasn't even on the screen, then when that note comes on screen you try to hit it again, and end up getting a miss for the note that's after that and so on. I know you're going for simplicity, but it just isn't going to work here. Instead you should be punished, but still able to hit the next note.
For that, it could be something like this:Blaizer wrote:
So the timing window for releasing a long note should be less strict than for pressing it. In exchange, the release of a long note should never improve your score for the long note. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 320. If you press with 320 accuracy and release with 200 accuracy, you get 200. If you press with 200 accuracy and release with 320 accuracy, you get 200.
This also keeps the mindset of the player in the right place. With the averaging thing, you're encouraging players to think "oh crap I hit that badly better release it exactly on time to get the best score from it". With the emphasis on hitting the start of the long note instead, you're encouraging players to always hit the notes at the right time, and stay in beat with the song.
Not if it's a mod, or a beatmap-specific switch. Then all new or updated maps could just use the new scoring without impacting any of the existing stuff.Bobbias wrote:
I'm actually going to agree with Drace here.
Peppy has said he plans to work on mania, however, I'm fairly confident in saying he's not looking to make changes to the core mechanics of mania. Any change in the core mechanics requires a complete reset of the scoreboards for every song. This is because any change to the core mechanics changes the value of a given score. If the core mechanics make it harder to achieve high scores, then pre-existing high scores would be worth more than they used to be. This kind of complete reset would upset a lot of people, and goes against the level of consistency that peppy wants. Any changes to mania in the future are likely only to be polishing the editor, code cleanup, and other minor changes.
That would destroy already ranked maps, because they'd have broken mechanics while new ones would not. It's just unfair.Blaizer wrote:
Not if it's a mod, or a beatmap-specific switch. Then all new or updated maps could just use the new scoring without impacting any of the existing stuff.