Any chance of this kind of thing being addressed? I'm new here so I might be totally out of line by asking, but I dunno.
Fair enough. Back to osumaniaBobbias wrote:
The only real way to deal with this would be to make hitting a key when there's no note nearby punish the player, which is a big change in terms of game mechanics. This is very unlikely.
Honestly, Drace is just trying to make mania look bad.
Besides, any map that's easy enough to do this on shouldn't be worth any real PP anyway.
Yep. it is really is FUN-Hazelnut wrote:
oh... wow well uhm... hmm
OSU!MANIA IS SO FUN
lolol, no, it's full on legacy software man.Drace wrote:
quasi-legacy software
yeah, quite a few of themDrace wrote:
play w/e you want while patiently waiting for the next big thing I guess. It's coming.
Like what?Agka wrote:
yeah, quite a few of themDrace wrote:
play w/e you want while patiently waiting for the next big thing I guess. It's coming.
So yeah that's exactly my thoughts. Though no one is whining. Everyone knows nothing's gonna change so they just enjoy ridiculing it. Both mania players and people from the outside. They've come to terms with it.Drace wrote:
You "can" get a friend (with a good sense of beat) that never played any VSRGs before and he'll be able to clear overjoys using this technic on day 1.
The people who are serious about developing their VSRG skills, the true enthusiasts amoungst you, should really take a moment to think about this.
Honestly if you're fine with new players spam clearing overjoys then we live in completely different worlds. I know I like to be proud of my clears and achievements, not have them be shat on like I did here.Tear wrote:
So osu!mania is more about hitting objects at all rather than accurately. What's wrong with shifting focus somewhere else? Should all games be identical?
Honestly, I feel like anyone who says they care about improving, but measures themselves against arbitrary achievements (like the Dan system) or other players (like the ranking system here) is on some level lying. If you're truly interested in becoming better at the game purely for the sake of improving, then all the only person you should need to compare scores to is yourself. Of course, if all you care about is being better than other people, then you've got your skill tiers and ranking systems and your videos and screenshots where you can brag all you like as long as you remember that those systems are not without their flaws.Drace wrote:
I know I like to be proud of my clears and achievements, not have them be shat on like I did here.
Like mentioned earlier this only affects people serious about developing their playing skills.
Funny that in order to be anywhere on a top rank list here you need incredibly high accuracy more than anything else. Osu's system still favors people SSing easy shit over barely passing something actually hard (to a degree anyway, it's better now that tom's new difficulty calculations are in use, but still far from perfect.)Drace wrote:
People look for clears, not scores.
What do you play now? LR2?-Hazelnut wrote:
I stopped playing osu!mania because of this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex1z52Gs088
Following the post regarding Drace's story...
his plays are seen "amazing" on osu but he's a well known cheater in lr2.
It's really funny how exact same plays are seen so differently in 2 similar rhythm games.
And I'll never forgive osu!mania for giving birth to a cheater that messed up the whole lr2 system.
I will retract my ststement that the Dan system is arbitrary, because it HAS been given thought. And I will grant that the Dan system has some advantages such as having binary mutually exclusive states (pass, or fail).Drace wrote:
The dan system is anything but an arbitrary system. It's perfection in measuring skill on a universal level. Not only due to how it's a pure and simple milestone players strive for and achieve with no convoluted system such as this PP here behind it. You clear it or you don't. And to top it off you can make multiple dan scales to cover different areas of skills. You don't get anything more simple, straightforward and efficient than global milestones. It's not about being better than others, it's about having goals everyone strive for together. It's the exact same thing as personal goal, except they're global.
Who's behavior, what game. If we're talking about behavioral problems osu's community takes the cake any day, even over FTB. Don't forget every guide and most helpful people on here came from these other games. They tried their best to build this game up. Only to get betrayed despite their efforts. They weren't "fanboys" refusing to acknowledge the downfalls of their home games. They weren't people who decided to stay in a game indefinitely for no other reason than it's the game they chose. Most were thrilled and curious to see this new VSRG that popped up. They did their best to help out, but in the end it turned out it wasn't worth their time.Tear wrote:
Your behavior is the game's fault
Whatever
Who's behavior, what game.I meant the cheating thing
Comparing to the PP system, no matter how perfect it becomes, you cannot list players in order of skill.Who said pp is supposed to be a measure of skill? Nobody thinks it's possible to make an objective leaderboard. pp is for competition. Following your logic, should tournaments be banned too?
It's much better to take your mindset to where it belongs, play with people who think like you, and stop being the black sheep in a community you don't belong in.My mindset: I enjoy pushing buttons to music. I don't care about how well I do or what my skill is, I only want to be skilled enough to play most ranked maps. I also enjoy mapping my favorite songs quite a bit, especially using heavy but sightreadable SV changes.
The difference is blatantly obvious, the tournaments don't need to have the same participants, the same winners nor the same focus. It doesn't "list" players. It's a one time winner instead of a list shoved in the face of all the new players screaming: "look! he's #1". Rank is rank, it's indeed purposed to list players in order of skill, don't try to say otherwise.Tear wrote:
Who said pp is supposed to be a measure of skill? Nobody thinks it's possible to make an objective leaderboard. pp is for competition. Following your logic, should tournaments be banned too?
That was aimed to Bobbias and his comments on treating the game for something it's not. If you had decent reading skills you'd see with the particles I used that the section was directed to him personally. Plus, I clearly said I encouraged everyone to play what they want MULTIPLE times.Tear wrote:
My mindset: I enjoy pushing buttons to music. I don't care about how well I do or what my skill is, I only want to be skilled enough to play most ranked maps. I also enjoy mapping my favorite songs quite a bit, especially using heavy but sightreadable SV changes.
Where else do I belong?
I'm still of the opinion that those sort of systems are ultimately superfluous and unnecessary, but yes, the dan system is definitely better than what osu provides. I still see no real point in something like the dan system given that skill is so fluid, and any and all achievements are ultimately relative anyway.Drace wrote:
I agree the song choices in the dan system could be better, but I was specifically talking about the system, how it works, and what it can potentially become. Comparing to the PP system, no matter how perfect it becomes, you cannot list players in order of skill. It simply doesn't work out that way. At least with dans, the perfect songlists (note the plural) leads to a perfect system. Plus they don't need to be perfectly spaced out evenly in difficulty, just something relatively correct is enough to form a ladder people enjoy climbing. And there's also more than 1 scale, there's douzens.
Score, and even the actual counts for each judgement are not objective gameplay data, but are derived from a small set of objective data (specifically, the exact timing for each keypress). Ultimately any data derived from this is not as useful as the raw data itself when it comes to measuring improvement. Distilling your performance down to a single "score" will never be suited to accurately measuring skill. Too much information is lost. Osu does provide both the unstable rate as well as the timing bar, which are particularly useful for measuring performance (even if the numbers for the unstable rate are useless for anything but simple comparisons).Drace wrote:
Score, score, score.
Please. Scoring is broken and you know it. Is that the medium you use to measure your improvements? Is that the medium you potentially want to be measuring your improvements with?
My argument is that by and large those flaws do not necessitate playing a different game to get 'good'. I'll admit that Osu is not the ideal game for competitive high level VSRG competition or anything of that nature. My objection to your comments has generally been because you are effectively telling players 'you can't get good playing osu'. You can get 'good'. The only time the difference in mechanics is likely to become relevant is at the highest skill levels (and I'd wager that 90+% of the people at that skill level are already aware of other games right now.)Drace wrote:
That's because they're in fact inferior and you agreed to this notion multiple times already. Saying things about how you circumvent the issues does nothing but enforce my arguments.
Pretty sure Tear just didn't understand your little story time segment.Drace wrote:
Who's behavior, what game.Tear wrote:
Your behavior is the game's fault
Whatever
But I can't even grasp what you're trying to prove when none of your arguments are necessarily pro-osu.That's because I'm not a fanboy, and I'm explaining that osu! is the best VSRG for me, not the best VSRG ever (which doesn't exist, because it's subjective). I'm essentially proving that you can't objectively call a game worse than another one. osu! editor is the best FOR ME at the moment, because it has features I care about that other editors don't and the features it's lacking are the ones I don't care about. If there's either a game or an editor that's better for me, please tell.
Rank is rank, it's indeed purposed to list players in order of skill, don't try to say otherwise.No, that's not its purpose.
It's not hard to tell his arguments from his insults (which could be done without but that's none of my business), the thread is fine as it is.Tear wrote:
Drace is not civil, it's quite a challenge to weed out his arguments from the insults. Please lock this thread. Bobbias can continue his conversation via PM.
Forums are not a place for a conversation between two people. If you don't want comments from bystanders, go somewhere else.-Hazelnut wrote:
He's "insulting" you because you're trying to butt in his conversation with bobbias by not staying on topic and giving unnecessary comments.