Add pp as a scoring system in standard mode

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
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Drezi

NixXSkate wrote:

You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed.
Well I guess this is where we disagree, since I believe it's not just a BIT better, but far more accurate, also it would make perfect sense to change it, so the game would have a consistent and unified ranking system, not a separate one for maps and global ranks, especially given that the current system for map ranks (score) is the less accurate one.

NixXSkate wrote:

Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps.
That's true, but score doesn't measure mental skill any better either, it uses arbitrary multipliers that aren't even in balance. You could bump up the aim modifier of FL in PP aswell. HD does give a minor bonus to acc, that could be increased too if that's deemed more accurate.

NixXSkate wrote:

Also, did you just ignore the point I made about Dungeon's score? Do you have no argument for that?
You ignore every single DT score that is robbed of their rightful Rank1 spot by a nonDT FL score, I think this case is far more common.

Also:


I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
Amianki
Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.

EDIT: I lied. It actually would require slightly more aim skill, but the map is exactly the same regardless of whether you put FL on or not, so the point that FL pretty much only requires more patience to get the same score on still stands.
NixXSkate

Drezi wrote:



I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.

Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises. I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.
Drezi
To be honest, the merits of playing FL can be debated to no end, but this is not really relevant to this suggestion, since the value of FL can be adjusted to an accepted amount which is agreed upon in both systems (more easily in pp I believe).

FL is simply a very different mod than the rest. Every other mod, you play them and you build up the skill required to play them, and that skill becomes your permanent ability pretty much (reading HD, playing fast, reading AR10 and 10.3, being accurate). FL on the other hand requires you to build up that skill almost from scratch every time. Sure you get used to the flashing screen and not being able to see much, but you still need to learn every new map. So it's pretty hard to compare it to the rest properly. It does provide a certain kind of challange, but it's definitely not on the same level as improving from nomod level to DT, and I don't think it should be promoted by rewarding it too much, for the reasons stated in my previous post and this one.
BRBP

CalignoBot wrote:

Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.
I'm dying to hear your definition of skill.
DT-sama

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.

Sorry if the explanation is a bit messy.
Drezi

DT-sama wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses.
Either that, or you could display the PP you'd recieve if the score was submitted at that time without finishing the song. I know that wouldn't be possible normally, but I think the system could still evaluate it the same way based on combo, number of 300s etc out of the total of the map.
Amianki

BRBP wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.
I'm dying to hear your definition of skill.
I'm talking about being able to complete the map with a good score.

If you can get a good score with no-mod, you can get a good score with Flashlight. All you need to do is spend up to thousands of tries perfecting it. It doesn't make you more skilled at the game. All it does is prove you can put the time in to manually memorizing the whole map consistently enough to FC it.
Grappemaker
I think it's a really interesting suggestion, but in my opinion it's too much of an ideological request rather than being a realistic one.

Surely, it is great to have scoring that is mostly dependant by skill, but scoring as it is now already reflects skill quite a bit. It's indeed a bit flawed since it's too dependent on your performance at specific times rather than overall performance, e.g. hitting a handful of 100's at the end of a big combo will lower your score more than when hitting a handful earlier when your combo is still in the double digits, while overall your performance is still the same. But those flaws are quite minor and if you look at the bigger picture, better scores are harder to achieve than worse scores.

Also, having four different scoreboards for individual stats wouldn't be much of an addition, since they would already be heavily determined by the style of the map itself. Hence the current scoreboard already tells a lot about a player's capabilities if you're interested and motivated enough to look into a player's abilities.

2. If pp were ever to update its calculations, it could affect (possibly significantly) the placement of scores on the leaderboards. However, as far as I know, no significant changes have been made to either tp or pp in a long time, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.
PP is actually updated quite regularly and not as consistent as score is, considering the scoring algorithm is updated practically never. It's indeed not much of an issue, but it can make scoreboards fluctuate too much and rankings would become less solid and therefore less reliable because the score you set today might change over the course of time.

You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.
It would also have a major impact on gameplay. Right now, as you play the song you can watch your score increase and it can be a satisfying thing to see. Once you get to the point where overall performance starts playing a significant role, you'll get bothered a lot by breaking combos and seeing your shitty accuracy after going ham with 100's on a long stream. Seeing those is already demotivating, and to many of us a reason to hit the retry button for a better attempt right away. Imagining seeing the possible max pp all the time and the only thing it will do is decrease, and you'll constantly have the shitty feeling of not being able to get the highest possible amount of pp when you actually played the song quite well.

The most significant change that this would bring that I am interested in is the fact that your highest pp rewarding score would be taken into account, rather than the score with the highest actual score. Meaning getting a good score with DT when you already have a 99% FC no-mod score, would actually become an interesting thing to do, as right now it would net you absolutely nothing.
Paco
I like this.
1+
haxsu

NixXSkate wrote:

Drezi wrote:



I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.

Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises.
This by a long shot. Several people fail to understand how hard FL actually is especially at a high BPM with DT. Sorry to say this Drezi but I highly disagree with you. DT+FL should give a lot more pp then HD+DT.

I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.
I...really REALLY like this idea. It would make it so that it goes in the order of HD>HR>FL>DT instead of HD=HR>FL=DT. It makes no sense to me that HD is worth the same score multiplier as HR. HR physically changes the map which makes it legitimately more difficult. The CS, AR, OD and HP all multilplies by 1.4 when HR mod is enabled while HD mod remains unchanged. Only real difference with HD is that now you have to aim each note a little bit better since each note becomes invisible after a while. Changing HD multiplier down to 1.03x or 1.04x would make a lot more sense to me while HR should remain unchanged. As for FL, I believe that it should NOT beat DT however it should definitely beat HD (by itself) and HR (by itself). I believe that changing FL to 1.09x or 1.10x would make more sense to me. This will make it so that HD+HR would be worth just slightly more then FL alone (if acc is good enough) and make it so that DT by itself beats HD+HR (if acc is good enough). This would also make it so that HD+DT+HR would be worth just slightly more then HD+DT+FL which is good seeing that HR makes everything harder to time. This would balance out the scoring system a lot better in my opinion.

I will admit, I was originally all for the idea of making ppv2 as the new scoring system but then I look into it deeply and realized that doing this would not be such a great idea due to the fact that ppv2 has not fully evolved enough for it to become the new scoring stream as well as FL being so under capped in comparison to the other mods. It makes absolutely no sense that HD+DT gives much more pp then DT+FL for example. PPv2 focuses mainly on pure physical skill and very little of mental skill. There needs to be a good enough balance between the two before I can accept this.
RaneFire
Dennischan said all I wanted to say.

ppv2 might be more accurate for a majority of the playerbase, but there are still exceptions. It's not perfect and certainly far from being absolute because it can be changed towards perfection. Scoring is at least an absolute system, because it never changes.

The solution is to incorporate an absolute component into ppv2, so that pattern recognition and memory recall ability can be accurately accounted for in future revisions to the system, allowing it to be worked towards perfection at no cost to the players scores/replays which would otherwise disappear without a trace.

Tom94 wrote:

There is still the one issue of overwriting a score with another one that gives less pp, but that would be mostly eliminated by per-mod highscores. The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist,
Will support if per-mod high scores and replays are implemented, to avoid top50 replay problems upon changes to the system, and allow people to sift through potentially great scores not being rewarded as they should, and bring them to attention.

Legacy for viewing score ranks could stick around for a while as people adjust to it and replay data is gathered. It would also serve well for testing purposes, especially since we've only ever seen TP top scores (which only gathered data from the top50). We may be surprised to discover what kind of scores get accepted into the top50 over others, and whether they are actually more terrible than we had first imagined. It's never been tested publicly on this scale, the feedback would be very important and probably better to start sooner than later.
Xantaria
I think this is the way to go. Score doesn't even matter in osu!. So why would you want to sort ranks by score anyways.
Ace3DF
HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
LuxAurumque
I don't think this is fair to the HDHR and FL players.
Amianki

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.
xasuma
I don't even care if this gets implemented or not anymore. Just fix what it says in my signature .. You can't have people afraid of playing the game.
Kaeru

CalignoBot wrote:

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.
Yes, it pretty much has, actually. While still more accurate than ppv1, ppv2 is far from perfect. And I mean very far. Star difficulty is still calculated poorly, DT is still weighted too much on some songs (not all songs) and FL really is fine where it is. I really don't see why FL should be touched.

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.

And as Grappemaker said, displaying the pp in the top right instead of score is pretty much the most horrid idea I've ever heard of. People will just download a map, throw DT on it and if the little pp indicator in the top right isn't some absurd amount of pp that the map is definitely not worth, well you can guess what happens then. Delete it and move on to the next map to mash buttons on.
Topic Starter
Ohrami

Kaeru wrote:

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.
So apparently constant variation for a more accurate and precise system is worse than an old system that sucks but never changes. Imagine if all the scientists and inventors of the world thought that way.

Your last sentence is basically an admission that score is, in fact, an inaccurate system. Otherwise, why would you ever want to replace a higher score with a lower score? If it was accurate, then the best play would get the highest score.
CXu
Anyone who has never played FL seriously should not talk about the skills required to play FL.
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