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Add pp as a scoring system in standard mode

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318
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,788
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Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
Adding them side by side should be fine, cause then people will realize on their own how skewed and unrealistic score-leaderboards are compared to PP ones, so it'll be possible to phase out score ones completely without much of an uproar.

I mean sure HDHR overall might be underappreciated due to close to perfect acc being valued so high, but it should be obvious that when we're comparing these mods on the SAME map, DT is a lot harder than the other mods, so obviously it's gonna be reflected in PP.

going from nomod -> DT is the same level of difficulty increase as going from HT -> nomod, and noone seems to think that HT plays with mods are undervalued compared to nomod plays.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

going from nomod -> DT is the same level of difficulty increase as going from HT -> nomod, and noone seems to think that HT plays with mods are undervalued compared to nomod plays.

Od.
Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30
i have the same feeling as Lanturn on this idea...i think in general having a "skill-Leaderboard" is totally fine and many people would like that idea since its more "accurate" in its sense of giving "hard Scores" their attention...but you can't make such a major change without getting a HUGEE amount of hatred from the community...so the seperate leaderboard for PP is the "best" thing that can be done
Zaruhohl
9 posts
Joined July 2013
Zaruhohl
The only people who would get hurt from this are shitty FL players who only care about getting #1's and can't even SS normal/easy difficulties with DTHRFL.

I have no #1's currently but if this happens I will get a bunch of #1's thanks to bad accuracy FL players getting out of the way. (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91593&m=0 here is an example. They didn't even use HR)

And this would not hurt mid-level players, if they don't want to be mid-level players they should stop caring about spinning on normal diffs or whatever and try to improve their skill so they can do actually impressive scores.
I don't like how speed is the most important skill right now so I hope pp splits into three parts like tp in the future, this might solve the problems people have with DT.
Zaruhohl
9 posts
Joined July 2013
Zaruhohl

[ Tao ] wrote:

It's a bad example: FL players don't use HR because it made the map harder to memorize (FL needs advanced reflexes and memorization, especially for maps who have more than 300 combos, and HR made it even more harder) and not necessarily because they have bad acuracy. I didn't tried the map though, but if it was that easy, you would see some full mods scores.

And advanced FL players can DTHRFL Easy/Normal maps, quite easily.

I also think the score system is not perfect but as Kingkevin30 said I think it would be better to have seperate leaderboards, it's too late now for a major change like this. But good idea though.
I mentioned that they didn't use HR because I personally can't play FLHD at all, There are some SS DTHD and better accuracy DTHR scores on the map so I think they could do better if they really did memorize the map. But using a score from 2 years ago isn't totally fair I guess he did nothing wrong if we judge by ppv1.

About the advanced FL players, What about this guy? https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1308621 He would lose lots of #1's due to accuracy if map rankings changed. I admit I don't have the patience to do the scores he does but it annoys me when I see his silver S ranks surrounded by SS scores.

FL still gives aim bonus and if map rankings split into three (I don't think this will ever happen) FL scores would still have good aim.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

xasuma wrote:

Drezi wrote:

HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc.
Proof please.

And it is related, because a pp based score board will lead to pp searching people, which will eventually lead them into dt and our of the other mods.
And I do play a lot of dt myself, I'm not saying this because I hate on the mod at all. It just would not be fair to many HD, FL, HR plays.

:B
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.

xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma

jesus1412 wrote:

wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?

You can't just say, "wow so wrong, I can't believe this guy" in an argument. That's not a valid argument.
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

xasuma wrote:

If this were implemented HD mod would probably cease to be used for a lot of people. As of now hd is used in conjuction with other mods to give a score boost , however the pp gain from it is close to none (might even be none idk).
This could be argued with HR as well, although not as much as hd. Same for FL. And it would in a way monopolize DT (being the only mod that truly boosts your pp gain by a lot).

Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.

Screw staying neutral in this thread :D
I didn't even read past this post, but I think you forgot that DT affects accuracy and aim as well as speed. As far as I can tell, HR predominantly affects accuracy.

So... I don't understand the point you're trying to make here?
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
Well it is primarily speed over the other two. Everyone should agree on that..
Other than that, I think my post was clear enough for anyone to understand. Maybe reading all posts might help before you pick a random post and wonder why is not clear to you.
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
Actually although map difficulty is calculated by looking at the whole map, the method of map difficulty calculation is rather simple and cannot be a fair basis for score calculation.

1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT wiuld be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.

2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therfore fast single taps are underrated.

3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the diifculty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
In this state of pp calculation, using pp as score will be unfair.

I dont deny that pp calculation can be in time, a fair substitue for the score system, but currently it is still a work in process.
I urge people in this thread to see that pp is currently not a suitable system for weighing any scores.
But I am not remotely concerned about this being implemented since it is impossible for our osu community to agree on this issue.
I know that this message might be ignored by people in this thread who only care about DTing Hards, but I hope that you people can check out my points before mindlessly dismissing it.
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

xasuma wrote:

Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma

CalignoBot wrote:

xasuma wrote:

Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.
Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.

And instead of attacking me, be objective and work on solving the issue.
If you really need to set me straight send me a pm. These little 1v1 arguments aren't helping the thread. And again, if you would have read everything, you would have noticed most people who were posting here thought having them side by side would be a reasonable idea.

Read the last post on last page, much more informative than this little argument..
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

xasuma wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.

And instead of attacking me, be objective and work on solving the issue.
If you really need to set me straight send me a pm. These little 1v1 arguments aren't helping the thread. And again, if you would have read everything, you would have noticed most people who were posting here thought having them side by side would be a reasonable idea.

Read the last post on last page, much more informative than this little argument..
If you're talking about DT being monopolized, then my entire point is that it's not an issue because DT is significantly harder than HR to get good scores with. If you're talking about something else, then state it again.
Kaeru
302 posts
Joined February 2013
Kaeru
To whoever said HD doesn't help with pp, that's complete nonsense. HD can give a ton of pp. A lot of my top plays were worth almost nothing before I put HD on (for example, this map).

I still don't think pp should replace score. I am for the idea of replacing global scores with ones that are worth more performance points (I hate it when I set a record that's worth more pp but it doesn't get counted because my score isn't as high). I just don't feel like every mod is weighted fairly in every instance. In fact, I feel that it's impossible for the system to be so perfect that it isn't possible to set a more impressive score worth less pp. Score is a flawed system too, but it's the best system we have.

The problem with the later notes being weighted heavier (getting 100s near the end of the song hurts your score more) can be easily fixed by slightly altering the way score is calculated (though it would have to be possible to change old scores too or this would be pointless).

I don't know about other people here, but I don't want to see 85% DT scores in the top 50 on maps. I don't care how hard it is to play a song with DT.. you can just mash your way through most maps. HR takes a lot more skill than people give it credit for, and it is currently weighted far too little in my opinion. I don't even want to get into FL.. that's a whole different story in itself. I am totally against abandoning the old score system. The idea is just ridiculous.

The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone.

Also, Kyou-kun calls him/herself a "mid-tier" player at rank 180..? Are you so incredibly egotistical that you fail to see that you're biased towards this idea because of how high your rank is? I don't mean that as a personal attack, but you are in the top 0.1% of everyone that plays this game.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

dennischan wrote:

1. There is no pattern recognization.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
And how exactly does the current score system do a better job at evaluating these aspects?
You go on about this and that being underrated, which is a problem when comparing scores between different maps, for which pp is already being used so I don't see your point... When comparing scores on the same damn map it doesn't matter if the map is underrated in absolute value compared to other maps at all, every score on that given map is treated the same way, and their relative order is prefectly fine and more representative than score, how is that not obvious.

dennischan wrote:

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map.
FL1,12 HD1,06 -.-
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan

Drezi wrote:

dennischan wrote:

1. There is no pattern recognization.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
And how exactly does the current score system do a better job at evaluating these aspects?
You go on about this and that being underrated, which is a problem when comparing scores between different maps, for which pp is already being used so I don't see your point... When comparing scores on the same damn map it doesn't matter if the map is underrated in absolute value compared to other maps at all, every score on that given map is treated the same way, and their relative order is prefectly fine and more representative than score, how is that not obvious.

dennischan wrote:

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map.
FL1,12 HD1,06 -.-
Did you even read the whole damn post? I meant that at this moment it is not suitable to replace score with pp, and I'm for both of them coexisting. What I meant was that since pp is not a good calculation of actual difficulty between maps, it should not be used as a scoring system since nobody knows how much HIDDEN FAULTS there is in the pp system. For one, the pp system only considers a score's max combo and accuracy when weighing scores, and that makes the pp system not suitable for weighing scores since it works with too limited information.

Also did you not know that DT is considered a map changing mod and thus the pp calculator treats the DT-ed map as a new map? This is why what I said do matter, in fact, since DT just boosts up the speed of the map, and does not make the complexity of the map increase. Without pattern recognization, it is inevitable that the DT-ed map would be treated as a very hard map which in reality its not so hard as it seems, since the pattern keeps being simple.

Kaeru wrote:

To whoever said HD doesn't help with pp, that's complete nonsense. HD can give a ton of pp. A lot of my top plays were worth almost nothing before I put HD on (for example, this map).

I still don't think pp should replace score. I am for the idea of replacing global scores with ones that are worth more performance points (I hate it when I set a record that's worth more pp but it doesn't get counted because my score isn't as high). I just don't feel like every mod is weighted fairly in every instance. In fact, I feel that it's impossible for the system to be so perfect that it isn't possible to set a more impressive score worth less pp. Score is a flawed system too, but it's the best system we have.

The problem with the later notes being weighted heavier (getting 100s near the end of the song hurts your score more) can be easily fixed by slightly altering the way score is calculated (though it would have to be possible to change old scores too or this would be pointless).

I don't know about other people here, but I don't want to see 85% DT scores in the top 50 on maps. I don't care how hard it is to play a song with DT.. you can just mash your way through most maps. HR takes a lot more skill than people give it credit for, and it is currently weighted far too little in my opinion. I don't even want to get into FL.. that's a whole different story in itself. I am totally against abandoning the old score system. The idea is just ridiculous.

The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone.

Also, Kyou-kun calls him/herself a "mid-tier" player at rank 180..? Are you so incredibly egotistical that you fail to see that you're biased towards this idea because of how high your rank is? I don't mean that as a personal attack, but you are in the top 0.1% of everyone that plays this game.


I agree~ I like FL more than DT
also best argument ever
(The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone. )
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

dennischan wrote:

What I meant was that since pp is not a good calculation of actual difficulty between maps
It's already being used as a means of comparing people's performances which are based on different maps.

dennischan wrote:

For one, the pp system only considers a score's max combo and accuracy when weighing scores, and that makes the pp system not suitable for weighing scores since it works with too limited information.
I don't even... That's what the score system does.. First of all it considers your combo, if it's not near full your score is pretty much irrelevant automatically, and then it considers accuracy, but your accuracy towards the end matters 100x more than the rest, so plenty times a worse acc score ranks higher than a higher acc one with the same mods and combo.. PP is based on these stats too, but considers a lot more factors making it a lot more representative, how can you even argue against this??

dennischan wrote:

Also did you not know that DT is considered a map changing mod and thus the pp calculator treats the DT-ed map as a new map? This is why what I said do matter, in fact, since DT just boosts up the speed of the map, and does not make the complexity of the map increase. Without pattern recognization, it is inevitable that the DT-ed map would be treated as a very hard map which in reality its not so hard as it seems, since the pattern keeps being simple
Yeah, what else would DT be considered when it changes the map to something which could have been mapped nomod on an other song of the same BPM?
Slapping on a 1,12 multiplier for DT does not judge it better, than objectively using the same algorythm to evaluate the modified map. Yeah patterns are not recognized, that's why pp still needs work as a global ranking but this DOES NOT affect the comparision of scores on the same map at all, if anything PP is a lot better as a per-map ranking system, than a global one yet due to this very fact.

But I think someone already pointed this out, so maybe you should read the thread so things wouldn't have to be explained twice, and you wouldn't keep bringing up arguments which have been refuted plain and simple.

I'm perfectly fine with people having different opinions, if you have reasonable arguments that can't be rendered invalid by merely pointing out objective facts.. That gets pretty tedious.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

dennischan wrote:

Actually although map difficulty is calculated by looking at the whole map, the method of map difficulty calculation is rather simple and cannot be a fair basis for score calculation.

1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT wiuld be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.

2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therfore fast single taps are underrated.

3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the diifculty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
In this state of pp calculation, using pp as score will be unfair.

I dont deny that pp calculation can be in time, a fair substitue for the score system, but currently it is still a work in process.
I urge people in this thread to see that pp is currently not a suitable system for weighing any scores.
But I am not remotely concerned about this being implemented since it is impossible for our osu community to agree on this issue.
I know that this message might be ignored by people in this thread who only care about DTing Hards, but I hope that you people can check out my points before mindlessly dismissing it.
Fair points indeed. I'll agree that we should wait until the big issues (that are mentioned) are fixed before this is implemented for sure.

xasuma wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?

You can't just say, "wow so wrong, I can't believe this guy" in an argument. That's not a valid argument.
Your understanding of the bonus from hidden is beyond flawed. If HD gave more than it currently did it would be more rewarding relative to it's difficulty than DT. Maybe 20 pp isn't much in the big picture but for a single score that's A LOT of pp.


I do indeed like to read dennischan's posts they're well formed and researched. I honestly can't find many flaws in his arguments other than "the scoring system does that one aspect even worse".
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

jesus1412 wrote:

I do indeed like to read dennischan's posts they're well formed and researched. I honestly can't find many flaws in his arguments other than "the scoring system does that one aspect even worse".
He is right about the PP system's flaws, but he is not right about this having any effect on it being applied as a per-map ranking system instead of score, which does a lot worse job at evaluating different mods and performances. These flaws should have only affected it being applied as a global ranking system that compares performances between different maps, but that has already happened anyway.

Even if let's say with a dance number was so severly underrated that a HR FC SS would be worth only 100 PP, it wouldn't mean any harm to per map rankings, since everyone's performances would be undervalued, and still the best performance would be first (with that 100 pp), etc.
viora_
10 posts
Joined July 2013
viora_

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
I agree with this.
blahpy
297 posts
Joined November 2013
blahpy

simplyparanoid wrote:

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
I agree with this.
Yeah this

You might as well just remove HD and FL from the game completely if you wanted to base the scoring on pp (and everyone knows good pp scores are always DT)

I wish there was a way to add sort of negative stars


Tom94 wrote:

I feel like keeping score as a stable base measure is not such a bad thing. Especially with the possibility of mod-specific highscores (no more losing pp by beating your score with mods but worse accuracy) and optionally sorting the top50 pp-wise I don't see any reason why this wouldn't suffice.
^I feel like this is a much, much better idea.
Yarissa
587 posts
Joined September 2010
Yarissa
While the ranking system may be flawed and a poor indicator of skill it's much better than what we had before (for instance ppv1). The flaws aren't a huge vice that prevent it from being used the way it is- in fact most players are happy with the system. Anyone who complains about it either just really want to see more progress on the system or just weren't around for the earlier ranking systems. I rarely to never hear top players complain about the system right now. And aside from that, this thread isn't really the right place to discuss the accuracy of pp. While it may aid arguments about whether or not a scoring system like this should be implemented it doesn't really belong here.

My personal opinion on this is that I really think it should be implemented. Tom himself said there are a few things that would need to be addressed (such as pp recalculations and stored replays) but aside from that I think that it is a very sound idea and I can't see many disadvantages to it. Not only that but Tom seems to already have some of his own ideas about implementing it that sound effective.

Anyways this request has my full support and I hope that it does eventually get implemented. It would even warrant you to be more competitive, which I always find as a good thing.

Have all my stars
nocipher
3 posts
Joined January 2013
nocipher
It is a disservice to advocate for the separation of scoring and pp. They should be very interrelated. In particular, a higher score should always mean more pp. The current implementation is silly. There are many forum posts asking why people lost pp after improving their score. Most of the time the response is to chastise them for not searching before asking such a common question.

Many of these people will be players just starting to be invested enough in osu! to pay attention to ranking. According to Peppy, one of the major goals of the pp overhaul was to encourage progression, but the current system runs counter to that. After you set a decent score on a map, it is in your interest to actually not play that map again until you have improved significantly. Otherwise, you risk disappointment after a few missteps on on otherwise excellent play (for you) leave you a few thousand ranks below your starting point. This does not encourage to keep people playing osu! and fixing it should be made more of a priority.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

nocipher wrote:

It is a disservice to advocate for the separation of scoring and pp. They should be very interrelated. In particular, a higher score should always mean more pp. The current implementation is silly. There are many forum posts asking why people lost pp after improving their score. Most of the time the response is to chastise them for not searching before asking such a common question.

Many of these people will be players just starting to be invested enough in osu! to pay attention to ranking. According to Peppy, one of the major goals of the pp overhaul was to encourage progression, but the current system runs counter to that. After you set a decent score on a map, it is in your interest to actually not play that map again until you have improved significantly. Otherwise, you risk disappointment after a few missteps on on otherwise excellent play (for you) leave you a few thousand ranks below your starting point. This does not encourage to keep people playing osu! and fixing it should be made more of a priority.
Making pp the scoring system would fix everything you posted and your idea that a higher score should always mean higher pp is the worst thing I have ever read and shouldn't be read by anyone else.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
Might want to take this discussion here: t/181850
We most likely won't move forward with this before that thread is better figured out.
haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957

jesus1412 wrote:

nocipher wrote:

Goodwork.
Making pp the scoring system would fix everything you posted and your idea that a higher score should always mean higher pp is the worst thing I have ever read and shouldn't be read by anyone else.
Basically both of you have the same opinion : current score system sucks, thus score system needs to be changed (so that highest score/ best score means higher pp) but you are just trying to be offensive

better think before posting
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
This would render scores practically meaningless and that's bad for something that is the focus of a leaderboard. You would have scores in complete random order. It would be such a mess that you might as well just not display score at all, but that would mean there would be no meaningful way to calculate performance while playing.

I don't want this to happen.
Tommy Yang
50 posts
Joined October 2011
Tommy Yang
Posting on behalf of Kyou-kun:
"pp is considered by many to be a good representation of performance, and thus not random. Because of this, I don't think you should claim it is random or would place scores in random order, at least not without evidence to support your claim. The formulas for how pp works are displayed for all to see on the osu! wiki. No random factors are present in any of those formulas, for any mode, which is strong evidence that your claim is incorrect.

As for there being no meaningful way to calculate performance while playing: I already addressed this in the thread."
Last edited by Tommy Yang , edited 1 time in total.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
It's essentially sorting the scores by accuracy with a secondary weight of combo. This will practically reverse the importance of score. Score will cease to be relevant and so that 7 figure number that racks up when you hit things wont mean anything. If you get a few misses (well actually even a few more 100s will do), might as well retry because your pp gain will be next to nothing. Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less. Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.

Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time. Leaderboards are in game as well. PP would have to replace score as an ingame scoring system.
Tommy Yang
50 posts
Joined October 2011
Tommy Yang
Posting on behalf of Kyou-kun:
"Again, I'd like evidence to show that your claims are valid. You seem to contradict yourself in this post.

TheVileOne wrote:

It's essentially sorting the scores by accuracy with a secondary weight of combo. This will practically reverse the importance of score.
So accuracy is the most important stat with pp?

TheVileOne wrote:

If you get a few misses, might as well retry because your pp gain will be next to nothing. Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less.
So combo is by far the most important with pp (essentially the same as the scoring system now)?

TheVileOne wrote:

Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
So it's not accuracy or combo, but difficulty that is the most important factor with pp?

So which is it? The fact is that more modded plays with misses will be on the leaderboards with my proposed system than with the current system. Case in point, my 577 combo DT score on this map, which is in my top performances with a value of 237 pp. Were I to go SS that map with nomod (in one try, might I add), my leaderboard rank would increase but my pp would drop drastically. If my proposed system were in place, I'd likely already be in the top 50.

TheVileOne wrote:

Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.
Why would you in the first place? Unless you're trying to abuse the current flaws in the scoring system so you can get an undeserved rank.

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time. Leaderboards are in game as well. PP would have to replace score as an ingame scoring system.
That's sort of the point of this feature request."
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate
Oh my god no, this won't work at all. ppv2 is sooo bad at accurately measuring the skill required for FL.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/154889
For example, on shit like this, the current, well deserved #1 would be toward the end of the scoreboard, despite the fact that Dungeon could have easily gotten an DT+HD SS on it 50+ times on it with the amount of plays he put into it.
For this to happen, there would have to be a lot of work done to pp to more accurately measure the skill required for certain FL scores, because at the current point in time it's extremely underrated, and if this was the new scoring system, FL would totally be broken and would be extremely unfair to current FL pros or people who just want to try really hard to rank high on a map. The current score system needs change but ppv2 has not evolved enough for it to be the answer.

Edit: I would think it would be cool to have a separate list you could click on that shows the highest pp plays and the pp that was received on it.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

TheVileOne wrote:

Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less. Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.

Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.

NixXSkate wrote:

Oh my god no, this won't work at all. ppv2 is sooo bad at accurately measuring the skill required for FL.

The current score system needs change but ppv2 has not evolved enough for it to be the answer.
Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?

It had been accepted as the global ranking sysytem because it's pretty good already, and pp works especially well when we're talking about comparing scores on the same map, since the algorythm underweighting certain map types has no effect here, unlike on global ranking. Those B rank DT scores already give more PP, and thus contribute more to your global rank than some SS ranks, why should they have a lower place on map leaderboards in that case? If a B rank DT score gave more pp, than more probably than not they were harder to obtain, especially since the pp system doesn't like rewarding "bad performances" such as passes on hard songs with with lots of misses, combobreaks etc.

You keep pointing out it's flaws not realizing how infinitely more flawed the score system is.
Yarissa
587 posts
Joined September 2010
Yarissa
I think that replacing the rankings like that is kinda unfair to the people who farmed the map for FL scores. It invalidates all their time spent memorizing the map because they intentionally wanted to achieve that number one. Flashlight can be more than "just memory" as well, and memorizing maps does actually require some level of skill anyways. This is why there need to be separate leaderboards for a map ranking system like this. Score can stay (it probably will never disappear)

Compromises happen. For example: ppv2 beta.
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate

Drezi wrote:

Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?

It had been accepted as the global ranking sysytem because it's pretty good already, and pp works especially well when we're talking about comparing scores on the same map, since the algorythm underweighting certain map types has no effect here, unlike on global ranking. Those B rank DT scores already give more PP, and thus contribute more to your global rank than some SS ranks, why should they have a lower place on map leaderboards in that case? If a B rank DT score gave more pp, than more probably than not they were harder to obtain, especially since the pp system doesn't like rewarding "bad performances" such as passes on hard songs with with lots of misses, combobreaks etc.

You keep pointing out it's flaws not realizing how infinitely more flawed the score system is.
Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps. You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed. Part of the current scoring system's beauty is that people can rank higher with sheer determination with the hidden mods, the only problem is that it can be exploited because LIKE ppv2, the FL and HD scoring is totally inaccurate and mostly a percentage increase rather than being determined by the map itself. For a system to replace this one, it would have to give fair reward to both physical and mental skill, but that may ruin the magic of what ppv2 is, raw physical skill.

Also, did you just ignore the point I made about Dungeon's score? Do you have no argument for that? It's way too broken if it has that little consideration to the mental challenge added to the map. The score system's problem according to you is that it measures hidden, flashlight, and combos too generously, but ppv2 only measuring physical skill gives extremely little or inaccurate bonus to hidden or flashlight, which I think is even worse. It discourages people to be challenged with these mods, as well. The score and ppv2 system are both important, neither should be used for the other.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

NixXSkate wrote:

You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed.
Well I guess this is where we disagree, since I believe it's not just a BIT better, but far more accurate, also it would make perfect sense to change it, so the game would have a consistent and unified ranking system, not a separate one for maps and global ranks, especially given that the current system for map ranks (score) is the less accurate one.

NixXSkate wrote:

Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps.
That's true, but score doesn't measure mental skill any better either, it uses arbitrary multipliers that aren't even in balance. You could bump up the aim modifier of FL in PP aswell. HD does give a minor bonus to acc, that could be increased too if that's deemed more accurate.

NixXSkate wrote:

Also, did you just ignore the point I made about Dungeon's score? Do you have no argument for that?
You ignore every single DT score that is robbed of their rightful Rank1 spot by a nonDT FL score, I think this case is far more common.

Also:


I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki
Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.

EDIT: I lied. It actually would require slightly more aim skill, but the map is exactly the same regardless of whether you put FL on or not, so the point that FL pretty much only requires more patience to get the same score on still stands.
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate

Drezi wrote:



I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.

Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises. I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
To be honest, the merits of playing FL can be debated to no end, but this is not really relevant to this suggestion, since the value of FL can be adjusted to an accepted amount which is agreed upon in both systems (more easily in pp I believe).

FL is simply a very different mod than the rest. Every other mod, you play them and you build up the skill required to play them, and that skill becomes your permanent ability pretty much (reading HD, playing fast, reading AR10 and 10.3, being accurate). FL on the other hand requires you to build up that skill almost from scratch every time. Sure you get used to the flashing screen and not being able to see much, but you still need to learn every new map. So it's pretty hard to compare it to the rest properly. It does provide a certain kind of challange, but it's definitely not on the same level as improving from nomod level to DT, and I don't think it should be promoted by rewarding it too much, for the reasons stated in my previous post and this one.
Last edited by Drezi , edited 1 time in total.
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO
:)
Last edited by VoidnOwO , edited 1 time in total.
DT-sama
190 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.

Sorry if the explanation is a bit messy.
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