Kyou-kun wrote:
But it's not perfect. It's flawed. You also don't seem to have read the third post in this thread.
On an insane map, 1x100 makes a difference with pp, so it's as precise as it needs to be.
Who looks at their score while playing?? It's just a meaningless large number.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
lets take into account you cant.. and will never see your PP on the play in game while playing... for many reasons such as it just feeling crappy mechanically, i.e the first 10% of the map or so you wont see any pay off for hitting those circles at all, and it's not every single note that will increase this 'in game pp score' so the gameplay feels disconnected from scoring, especially considering most plays arent going to be worth much pp anyway compared to the players "best" plays so it will just be demoralizing in game.
1. There are plenty of ways that pp could be shown in-game while playing. I think the most reasonable way to implement this would be to have a "descending" score method; that is, you start with the max pp possible for the map, and it goes down as you make mistakes. I already proposed this for accuracy a long time ago in this forum, but it never got anywhere.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
lets take into account you cant.. and will never see your PP on the play in game while playing... for many reasons such as it just feeling crappy mechanically, i.e the first 10% of the map or so you wont see any pay off for hitting those circles at all, and it's not every single note that will increase this 'in game pp score' so the gameplay feels disconnected from scoring, especially considering most plays arent going to be worth much pp anyway compared to the players "best" plays so it will just be demoralizing in game. And because the way PP is calculated.. and because unranked maps do exist.. etc..
4. Why would the number at the top right have to continue to exist in the game? In my opinion, it just adds clutter. Even if score were to remain the scoring method, it would still be reasonable if that number were removed.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
That aside, if we keep the way the game works right now and have score used in game [which we will], just not for anything but measuring your individual circle clicks, you're playing the map and there's this arbitrary number on the top right called "Score" while on the left the scoreboard just has combo and PP. That kind of disconnect doesn't really promote competition but just obfuscates it. Why even show your play underneath the scoreboard in-game if it's just going to show your score/combo compared to their pp/combo, how would you even climb onto the scoreboard whilst playing since PP isnt even calculated til the end?
5. I don't get what you mean by the "different max combo like 300 vs 1000", as a combo difference that drastic would clearly result in a difference in pp. I already told you that the highest score will get the higher rank in situations where pp is equal.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
And on easy-normals its going to be rather silly to just see something like "38 pp" repeated 50 times on 2 different maps that might have a very different max combo like 300 vs 1000 but they were worth the same PP and everyone SS'd it so whose to say what's different about playing them?
6. Even with DT being worth a little bit more, it's still imbalanced in my opinion. You don't even need close to a full combo on some maps to get really high pp on them with DT because of how the pp system recalculates map difficulty based on mods. DT doesn't affect slow maps as much as it does fast ones, so a flat bonus could never work well for a scoring system.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
If anything, just get rid of HD HR getting a decimal advantage over DT in score multiplier, and get rid of Half Time scores showing up entirely, and scoreboards are perfect the way they are imo.
7. He severed the association between pp and score rank in specific, because he recognized how little score matters when considering actual skill. If the leaderboards did represent actual skill, I don't think there would be any problem with connecting them to the ranking system.]Bassist Vinyl wrote:
On a final note, Peppy severed the association between PP and actual rank on maps with ppv2 came out, i dont think he'd link them again.
well except it wouldnt unless they had the exact same star rating.Kyou-kun wrote:
5. I don't get what you mean by the "different max combo like 300 vs 1000", as a combo difference that drastic would clearly result in a difference in pp. I already told you that the highest score will get the higher rank in situations where pp is equal.
diff. max combos gave diff. score which gave a better idea of the map, showing only pp says nothing about the map really.Kyou-kun wrote:
So you're talking about different maps? I still don't get your point. Why would it matter if there were multiple different maps where several scores are worth 38 pp?
Ziggo wrote:
That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
All those FL scores dissapearing out of the Ranking. I think a lot of tears would fall.Drezi wrote:
I don't understand why people are against this idea. It's just a matter of disliking change I guess, being attached to legacy methods.
How is having a same rank or point a problem when they performed the same?Bassist Vinyl wrote:
Because Score is, in effect, a "perfect" way to compare scores and more precise [maps can get up to 1.5bil score, pp doesnt really go above 500. less room for error on the scoreboard this way.] since otherwise there will be like 5 sets of the same amount of pp on the scoreboard for your average full dthd/hdhr scoreboard.Fudgyking wrote:
Can someone explain to me why the overall pp-based ranking is accepted and considered accurate by the majority of players but at the same time, the score-based map rankings are still considered to be the appropriate way of sorting performances on each map?
How can someone think that global rankings and map rankings should use a different method? How does that even make sense?
How come the overall rankings do not use score, if it's supposedly more "honorific" and "accurate" than pp on each individual map?
Is there something obvious I overlooked which makes the situation more complicated that I made it seem?
Also there's no obfuscation. People will know exactly how they got on the scoreboards because the way score is calculated is perfectly common knowledge and makes for absolute accuracy and is better for comparison purposes.
And it's always been that way.
Where did I indicate that I was responding to anything in this thread outside the overall idea of it?xasuma wrote:
That is not the point. I think that will be implemented regardless soon-ish (I linked it in an earlier page). So you don't have to lose pp for a 'better' score anymore. But that is not what the discussion is about here. :pCalignoBot wrote:
I like this idea enough to match your stars.
Hope this gets included simply because it pissed me off how I turned an FC-5 into an FC but still lost about 10pp once because my accuracy was slightly lower.
Im gonna remain neutral for the rest of this thread I think :B
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.xasuma wrote:
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
HD HR isn't even in the same plane of existence as DT in terms of PP. xasuma is absolutely right.Drezi wrote:
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.xasuma wrote:
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
No, you are actually wrong. I have tested them. HD doesn't bother me , therefore I can achieve a lot of scores with the same accuracy as no mod. And the pp gain is none. OK maybe 0.xx but that could be something else for all we know .Drezi wrote:
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.xasuma wrote:
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
Proof please.Drezi wrote:
HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc.
You are absolutely right. But that is the exact reason why I said HD will cease to be used by a lot of people. It would only be significant enough for people to bother on very difficult maps. What about the other 90% of not very difficult aim maps?.pielak wrote:
Posting on Kyou-kun's behalf:
"If Hidden only gave a 0.01% bonus or something to that extent, as you so claim, then why would -Hakase-'s 98.54% (301 pp) Hidden score on this be worth more pp than mugio3's 100% nomod (287 pp) score? The reason is because it gives a percentage bonus based on the aim difficulty of the map, and that map happens to have a high aim difficulty. On a map with a low aim difficulty, the bonus will be very small and insignificant, and since you probably aren't playing those kinds of maps, you likely never noticed."
You didn't refute any of my points, though. Yes, score is inaccurate, but there is no reason to replace it. If you can sort both by score and by pp both sides win.Kyou-kun wrote:
How often is the algorithm updated in a way which would affect beatmap leaderboards significantly? While it's a problem, I don't see it to be a significant enough one to warrant the use of such an inaccurate system.
Bauxe wrote:
You make it sound like the same 50 people should have rank 1 to 50 on every map...
:^)Kyou-kun wrote:
There's people who actually don't think this way. These are usually Flashlight players, or proponents of Flashlight mod weighting remaining the same. It's really quite surprising to me that some people don't think that players with more skill deserve better ranks.BRBP wrote:
They're less skilled, they don't deserve to be in the ranking list.
-Kyou
Tbh it's not all that uncommon and feels pretty bad losing PP because I improve a 'sliderbreak near the end' score with worse accuracy, or I overwrite a better acc score with a worse one, only because I had more 100s at the beginning of the last one, and got all 300s at the end.Tom94 wrote:
The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist
I don't think they mind their per-map ranks much, when global rank - which I think is more important, especially for non top-tier players - changes anyway if there are changes made to PP.Tom94 wrote:
Your opinion obviously will vary but keep in mind, that most players in this game are casuals who - as it seems to me - prefer their ranks to not randomly change.
Can you give an example of a score which is worth less than it should be with the current system? In particular, give me an example of one using the Hidden mod, if you can.xasuma wrote:
You are absolutely right. But that is the exact reason why I said HD will cease to be used by a lot of people. It would only be significant enough for people to bother on very difficult maps. What about the other 90% of not very difficult aim maps?.
If it only affects a fraction of all beat maps, then it can't be as accurate as you claim it to be. Besides, If I can't notice it, then why would anyone below my rank ever notice it?
What this really is, is an ideal ranking for really high rank players on really hard maps. Good luck measuring pp accurately on 2-3 star maps.
qftDrezi wrote:
Tbh it's not all that uncommon and feels pretty bad losing PP because I improve a 'sliderbreak near the end' score with worse accuracy, or I overwrite a better acc score with a worse one, only because I had more 100s at the beginning of the last one, and got all 300s at the endTom94 wrote:
The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist
Because your points are mainly opinions which you and I disagree on.Tom94 wrote:
You didn't refute any of my points, though
Don't understand this post at all.BRBP wrote:
Drezi wrote:
going from nomod -> DT is the same level of difficulty increase as going from HT -> nomod, and noone seems to think that HT plays with mods are undervalued compared to nomod plays.
I mentioned that they didn't use HR because I personally can't play FLHD at all, There are some SS DTHD and better accuracy DTHR scores on the map so I think they could do better if they really did memorize the map. But using a score from 2 years ago isn't totally fair I guess he did nothing wrong if we judge by ppv1.[ Tao ] wrote:
It's a bad example: FL players don't use HR because it made the map harder to memorize (FL needs advanced reflexes and memorization, especially for maps who have more than 300 combos, and HR made it even more harder) and not necessarily because they have bad acuracy. I didn't tried the map though, but if it was that easy, you would see some full mods scores.
And advanced FL players can DTHRFL Easy/Normal maps, quite easily.
I also think the score system is not perfect but as Kingkevin30 said I think it would be better to have seperate leaderboards, it's too late now for a major change like this. But good idea though.
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.xasuma wrote:
Proof please.Drezi wrote:
HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc.
And it is related, because a pp based score board will lead to pp searching people, which will eventually lead them into dt and our of the other mods.
And I do play a lot of dt myself, I'm not saying this because I hate on the mod at all. It just would not be fair to many HD, FL, HR plays.
:B
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?jesus1412 wrote:
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
I didn't even read past this post, but I think you forgot that DT affects accuracy and aim as well as speed. As far as I can tell, HR predominantly affects accuracy.xasuma wrote:
If this were implemented HD mod would probably cease to be used for a lot of people. As of now hd is used in conjuction with other mods to give a score boost , however the pp gain from it is close to none (might even be none idk).
This could be argued with HR as well, although not as much as hd. Same for FL. And it would in a way monopolize DT (being the only mod that truly boosts your pp gain by a lot).
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
Screw staying neutral in this thread
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.xasuma wrote:
Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.CalignoBot wrote:
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.xasuma wrote:
Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
If you're talking about DT being monopolized, then my entire point is that it's not an issue because DT is significantly harder than HR to get good scores with. If you're talking about something else, then state it again.xasuma wrote:
CalignoBot wrote:
Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.
And instead of attacking me, be objective and work on solving the issue.
If you really need to set me straight send me a pm. These little 1v1 arguments aren't helping the thread. And again, if you would have read everything, you would have noticed most people who were posting here thought having them side by side would be a reasonable idea.
Read the last post on last page, much more informative than this little argument..