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[Rule rewording] Do not alter the song's title.

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DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
Do not alter the song's title. This includes adding any marker to describe the cut of the song such as "Short Ver.", "TV Size" and so forth unless those markers are part of the official song title as listed by a reputable source.
While the rule is already clear, it'd be better to include in the wording that translating the song's title is also not allowed, to avoid possible misunderstandings and misuse of the metadata fields, as leaving the original title in Unicode, but translating it in the Romanised field.

Do not alter the song's title. This includes translating or adding any marker to describe the cut of the song such as "Short Ver.", "TV Size" and so forth unless those markers are part of the official song title as listed by a reputable source.
I'm a bit bad at wording so if someone has a better one, suggest it please.
dkun
osu! Alumni
4,486 posts
Joined August 2009
dkun
Fully agree to how the suggested alternative is worded. For a speedy process, I'd like to close discussion in a week, if that's okay with you. Should be more than enough time if we don't have any issues.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
For reference, a priority list of where to get song titles (as I went through this issue with one of my maps)

From highest to lowest

1) Composer/Band's official website
2) Official album listing (aka. Either from a purchased album, or a site that sells the album (ie. iTunes))
3) Composer/Band's wiki pages. (Assuming the wiki is a decently active wiki. Fanmade wikis that are mostly dead are generally not reputable sources)
4) Unofficial music databases. (Which is what most people would tend to use, especially for foriegn music)
5) Wikipedia page.
6) Unofficial album listing (aka. A site that you can download the album from, but is not officially sold by the composer/band)
7) Youtube video listing (This is mostly useful for things like youtube poops or fanmade things that don't really have a home outside of youtube)

NOTE: This is by no means official I just made it off of the top of my head so tear it apart all you want. Also be aware that different situations call for different things, but this is what I'd generally think in terms of credibility.

And for reference, Because a previous map has a title does not mean its right I'm aware that there was a rule for consistency way back in 2012 where people would put wrong metadata so things would be consistent, but now we've moved past that, and rather than keep on making the same mistake over and over again, we need to like, actually fix things. I'm not sure how the progress is on osz2 and the magical "oh it'll fix every title", but the least we could do is at least start that now so it's less work in the future. I don't know if that needs to be worded into the rule, or if it should just be on the "Don't be stupid" clause.

It should also be in the best interest of reputable modders as well as all BATs to start looking at this stuff prior to qualifying, even if it seems trivial, so we don't have incidents like the one that has lead to this happen again.

Completely supporting this rule tho.
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
SapphireGhost

A

Retain the song's original title. Use an untranslated title and only add labels describing the cut of the song when included by the official title.

B

Do not alter the song's title. Do not use a translated title or add labels describing the cut of the song unless the official title includes them.
I attempted to clean up the wording to make it more formal and concise. "Label" seemed more appropriate than "marker", and "official title" seems more inclusive and definitive than "reputable source", so I changed it accordingly and ended up with two possible rewordings.
dkun
osu! Alumni
4,486 posts
Joined August 2009
dkun
B sounds more concise.
KSHR
Global Moderator
1,668 posts
Joined July 2010
KSHR
Yeah, I'm pretty sure this should be reworded as soon as possible. In fact osu! has some translated titles which have different meaning from original ones. For example, With a dance number. Also I prefer B as well. (Because it's easier for Japanese people who suck at English like me to understand w)
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
I like the simplicity and accuracy of B.
akrolsmir
606 posts
Joined November 2010
akrolsmir

SapphireGhost wrote:

B

Do not alter the song's title. Do not use a translated title or add labels describing the cut of the song unless the official title includes them.
On translated titles, though: If a release provides an official English translation, shouldn't we prefer that to the original untranslated?

For example, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/144367 is titled "Kisou Honnou feat. Yuuki Aoi", but on Amazon the same song has been officially translated "Heart's Homing Instinct".
haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957
Please add the statement saying "A BAT needs to provide the correct title for a song, if a BAT thinks title is the only unrankable reason for a mapset"
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn

akrolsmir wrote:

For example, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/144367 is titled "Kisou Honnou feat. Yuuki Aoi", but on Amazon the same song has been officially translated "Heart's Homing Instinct".
Romanizing something does not mean translating it. it means making it readable using the roman alphabet. A translated title is fine in the tags. It might seem a little strange but its the best way to do it.


haha5957 wrote:

Please add the statement saying "A BAT needs to provide the correct title for a song, if a BAT thinks title is the only unrankable reason for a mapset"
Honestly the mapper themselves should already have the correct title. If a user or BAT has a source that officially states the song title, then it needs to be changed. Doesn't matter who it is (BAT or user). If something like a title is wrong, it needs to be changed before going past qualified.
haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957
I'm not saying that the mapper shouldn't be responsible for the title. Like, for exmaple, say a TV size map has a title of
Awesomesong (TV Size)

but when nobody is able to find the correct title for the song, especially when it comes to translation, a BAT (who decides to rank it or not) should be able to tell what the correct title is, when a BAT calls it a unrankable map due to title
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn
So basically just asking for politeness on the BAT's side. It's mostly a guideline for everything though.

BATs already know they can't unrank something unless they have a valid reason to do so. I don't think there's really ever been a case of a BAT unranking on an incorrect title, and then not having it changed at all.

I don't really see a reason why it should be included in this rule though. It seems like something that should be posted on the BAT general rules to unranking something. (if there is something like that)
akrolsmir
606 posts
Joined November 2010
akrolsmir

Lanturn wrote:

akrolsmir wrote:

For example, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/144367 is titled "Kisou Honnou feat. Yuuki Aoi", but on Amazon the same song has been officially translated "Heart's Homing Instinct".
Romanizing something does not mean translating it. it means making it readable using the roman alphabet. A translated title is fine in the tags. It might seem a little strange but its the best way to do it.
Hm...it's not clear that romanization is preferable over translation, when an official translation exists. The translation provides meaning to players, whereas the romanization only tells them how it ought to sound in another language.

It'd make sense for an official English translation to be the English title, with the original title in its original form under TitleUnicode.
Shulin
1,189 posts
Joined August 2009
Shulin
I'd agree to always prefer an official title / translation but why forbid a unofficial translation if it's in common use? You could get a situation where the a romanised title is forced by virtue of this rule but no one else is using the proposed romanised title but osu!

I'd prefer a common sense case by case basis.

akrolsmir wrote:

Hm...it's not clear that romanization is preferable over translation, when an official translation exists. The translation provides meaning to players, whereas the romanization only tells them how it ought to sound in another language.

It'd make sense for an official English translation to be the English title, with the original title in its original form under TitleUnicode.
Also agree with this.
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn
Can I also add that if the mp3 is custom cut that it should be renamed closest to approximately how long it is provided there is a source for it with a label like Short Ver. or TV Size.

For example: if you cut a full song down to 1:30 and it is very very similar to the TV sized version itself. You would add TV Size or the appropriate label from the soundtracks/websites listing, even if it isn't 100% the same track.

Audio example: (Note that this song doesn't have a TV size label anywhere, as this is just an example of a cut I did awhile back.)
http://puu.sh/9PwbH.mp3 (Full Version reduced to TV Size length)
http://puu.sh/9PwDl.mp3 (TV Size Version)

There are some minor differences at the end, but the full length one was reduced to match the length of the TV size. In this case it would be better to use the TV size label (if the Album/Website/Other Source has it of course)

--------

Yes or no to this? There was kind of a case earlier about this, so it would be nice to get it cleared up as well. It could kind of go both ways I guess.
Chewin
osu! Alumni
4,082 posts
Joined December 2010
Chewin
Does the mapper need to add it (TV Size or Short Ver.) to the tags? If yes, this rule is obviously fine
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
If a song has an official English translation, then it must be used, otherwise, just romanize it.

If the song is a cut, the title must have no extra labels, even if it matches the -official- shortened version imo.
Also it'd be safer to not put any label in any case just to avoid inconsistencies in a future (and still not breaking anything as the song can be treated as a cut), for the impatient people, but that's just my opinion I think.

Chewin wrote:

Does the mapper need to add it (TV Size or Short Ver.) to the tags? If yes, this rule is obviously fine
Not needed imo, but they should.
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
What exactly constitutes an official translation? nicovideo has a field for anyone whose account is from any country other than japan which has a fan translatable title, so I wouldn't class that as official, yet people will probably use it since it appears on the "official" platform.
Eni
1,437 posts
Joined May 2013
Eni
A song title must be in the original language it was intended for, i.e: no Japanese -> English translation if English speakers were not the intended target audience.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Discussion has seemed to have come to a halt. With the (hopefully) added rule concerning reputable sources for metadata, this won't be needed. If anyone wishes to revive this discussion, feel free to contact me and I will move it back.

Flaming.
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