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[New Rule] Songs with feedback sounds/effects

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Krah
If people want to map an inaccurate mp3 let they do.


Clearly against the fact to interdict to people some mp3 / songs.
Avena
I find this pretty smart, I've seen maps like Jenny's Flower have timing issues due to the SDVX effects, so if these aren't part of the mp3, it makes it much easier on the mapper and the player.
Even though I really like the effects SDVX brings into the song with the random beats (1/3 and such), I find it kinda bad when it comes to a map.
Topic Starter
Dolphin

Krah wrote:

If people want to map an inaccurate mp3 let they do.


Clearly against the fact to interdict to people some mp3 / songs.

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Your map must be perfectly timed. This means that your BPM and offset are spot-on, sliders end when they should, notes are generally following a recognizable rhythm (such as the lyrics or drums) which is comprehensible by a player, and that there are no unsnapped notes (you can check this by running AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) in the editor).
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_Criteria#Timing
Following this rule, it means that if the feedback sounds are inaccurate, its unrankable.
This matters hugely in a rhythm game.
Redon
Topic Starter
Dolphin

Redon wrote:

Meanwhile people are mapping songs with variable tempo like Roze and nobody bats an eyelid.
Roze was properly timed.

I should also mention this doesn't only apply to SDVX effects, this applies to anything that's similar.
Redon
Tear

Redon wrote:

It was properly timed, but you can't strive for perfection by the millisecond when timing a song like that.
Yet Charles445 did.
Topic Starter
Dolphin
For SDVX songs, the original songs are easily obtainable without effects, and if you decide you want to map a version with the effects, the artist wouldn't be i.e. t+pazolite, it would be something like t+pazolite remixed by [insert sdvx player here].
Since SDVX replays are ripped from video hosting sites, they would not be of a comfortable quality.
You should get the original song from an analyzed soundtrack rather than ripping it off a video.

Surely anyone can map what they want but it shouldn't be rankable. I doubt anyone would rank a map of some top player playing The Big Black, so why should this be rankable? It's the same case.
CXu
If said effects add to the experience of the song, then there really shouldn't be a problem that they're slightly off-time. A bunch of older songs have inconsistent timing due to human error, and they can fluctuate between a small range of bpm, or an artist might sing a vocal slightly off-beat, without that causing people to stop mapping, playing or enjoying the music.

In most cases if only one beat is slightly off, mapping it as if it weren't off-beat in the first place feels fine, gameplay-wise anyway.
Dainesl
Imagine if we accepted slightly mistimed charts in IIDX; the time frame to get the best judgement score (P.Great) is like 3ms, and some of these effects could be off by as much as 5ms; easily outside that boundary. And 'cause these are additive, you can't do anything except try and average the timing of the effects with the main beat; so you end up being like 2.5ms early and 2.5ms late in the best case scenario; again I will say that a few ms can make all the difference, and like Dolphin said, a map must be perfectly timed. That's all I'll say; I'm not gonna argue against this.

EDIT: Timing is more lenient in osu!, yes, but timing's about 15ms at OD 10 (this is either way, remember, so it can only be 7.5ms early or 7.5ms late if I have it right) so having an entire third of that timeframe being eliminated is not good! THIS IS A RHYTHM GAME, PEOPLE.

EDIT 2: Found out that timing is based on frames so it's 1 frame for P.Great
Lach
As much as I disagree with mapping whoosh bang versions of songs due to the fact that I, personally, think they sound bad, it's not really an issue. For what it's worth, the GST versions have inconsistent timing in some cuts of the songs due to the way the track is spliced into a shorter version, which are also present in the live play rips.

If you're going to be so anal about disallowing sdvx audio files entirely, you might as well require all mp3s supply a .log from the ripping tool to ensure nothing fishy has been done in the process of obtaining said mp3. Play any of the currently ranked mapsets using sdvx mp3s, you won't have an issue with the timing.

Dolphin wrote:

if you decide you want to map a version with the effects, the artist wouldn't be i.e. t+pazolite, it would be something like t+pazolite remixed by [insert sdvx player here].
They are not remixing anything by playing it. If anything, it should be "remixed" by the person doing the effects (MAD CHILD, TAKUYA), most of this information can be found by actually playing the game. I firmly believe the title should remain intact, though.

peppy wrote:

If the songs are from sound voltex which are being mapped, and are generally heard WITH the effects applied, then I see no issue in baking them into the mp3. If they are songs from elsewhere then I can see this being an issue.
Some of the songs are originals composed for the game (KAC song contests, other various contests), others are crossovers from other bemani games, and then there's the licensed vocaloid/touhou/various doujin circle tracks which have been effected. Some can only be found in the game, others can be found elsewhere, from albums.

http://www18.atwiki.jp/sdvx/pages/1059.html
Zeraph
are there any problem maps using the effected sdvx tracks that brought about you wanting to make this thread? so far every sound voltex map that was using the effected track has been great, no outstanding timing issues. there haven't been any massive group complaints about timing/ability to acc on any of these maps as far as i know so...your point is bleak, pretty hard to understand where you're coming from.
Topic Starter
Dolphin
The SDVX examlpe is of course the one that makes people bite, hahaha

Then again, what about live replays of IIDX, BMS and pop'n music, should this still be rankable too then?
Everyone so far seems to think that this rule is only restricted to SDVX but that's not the case at all.
Zeraph
still no example maps of why this rule should even be a thing?
Lach

Dolphin wrote:

Then again, what about live replays of IIDX, BMS and pop'n music, should this still be rankable too then?
Everyone so far seems to think that this rule is only restricted to SDVX but that's not the case at all.
Currently, I am not aware of a way to produce perfect timed versions of sdvx tracks. The others are perfectly possible, and I think you know this.
RLC
pls no bannerino whoosh bangerino

but on a serious note.... what? I suppose songs with vocals shouldn't be rankable either, since you know, human error. That is, after all, no different from your main example.
Lust
Most of whats been said against this is pretty much what I've been thinking of. Why limit mappers of their song choice if the problem is so miniscule? As always, maps are evaluated on a case by case basis - so if a track with feedback sound/effects are so evil that they interfere with the play, then of course it will not be ranked if deemed so by a BAT. Making it a rule is a bit blah you feel me on the low?

I see where you are coming from, but I don't see your stance being feasible with the mindset us boosh woosh wangerjangers have
DakeDekaane
If the sound effects don't interfere with the timing considerably (1-2ms?) and the audio file has a decent quality, I don't see the problem of leaving them.

But it'd be better to use custom hitsounds to achieve the same effects, imo. (bye bye whoosh)
Lach

DakeDekaane wrote:

But it'd be better to use custom hitsounds to achieve the same effects, imo. (bye bye whoosh)
Not happening. There's more effects than just the bang sound. THIS is an example of how the effects are provided. There's several tracks running parallel at the same time. Effector buttons remove the main track so the layers underneath are played.

Only time something can be "off" is if the person playing doesn't hit the effector button at all, or misses an analog. Most of the tracks used are FCs. In reality, there should be NO variation, unless the machine itself that the lineout is recorded from is having sync issues.

I think it's time to put a nail in this coffin. This proposed rule is stupid.
dkun
If the audio file that's being used has significant timing issues, then we can treat them by a case-by-case basis.

Other than that, this should be mapper preference.
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