Cool thanks for all the replies, guess I'll probably stick to alternating for now have tried single tapping a few times but don't really like it as much feel its easier for me to follow the rhythm of the song when I alternate.
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Is it worth switching to single tapping?
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If you really want to push past the standard skill level, you should learn how to single tap.Robbieyo wrote:
Cool thanks for all the replies, guess I'll probably stick to alternating for now have tried single tapping a few times but don't really like it as much feel its easier for me to follow the rhythm of the song when I alternate.
By that, I mean you're aiming for a long term goal of 270bpm
Most players hit the wall and progress becomes a rarity. Alting players get the speed burst at first "huh lol i can play scarlet rose". After a while the 1key players catch up and don't stop until they hit their own wall as they are FORCED to get faster. Both can be accurate as fuck but the wall is all about physical ability, not reading or accuracy.GoldenWolf wrote:
the stamina wall
jesus1412 wrote:
Most players hit the wall and progress becomes a rarity. Alting players get the speed burst at first "huh lol i can play scarlet rose". After a while the 1key players catch up and don't stop until they hit their own wall as they are FORCED to get faster. Both can be accurate as fuck but the wall is all about physical ability, not reading or accuracy.GoldenWolf wrote:
the stamina wall
Please show evidence for this not hurr durr i got draw good
Like how can you tell it's not
also sry i draw "A" for "Ability" weird
Black are alters white are people who use 1key when possible. most of the alt players aren't "fast" players. Fits the trend very nicely, few, far, and not as fast as the faster 1key players. I have provided more reasoning than you in this discussion. "hurr durr u have no base" has even less basis than what I'm saying.
Trend does not indicate an objective super-wall of objective universal suckage.
Just because most blacks have big dicks doesnt mean whites cant have dicks just as big.
edit:
I understand, and I am well, well aware that 95% of the top players are singletappers. This is the only 'reasoning' you have.
Your statement however is that alters hit the wall faster.
How do you know this is some kind of truth of the universe and not just the fact that most people singletap because of reasons?
Just because most blacks have big dicks doesnt mean whites cant have dicks just as big.
edit:
I understand, and I am well, well aware that 95% of the top players are singletappers. This is the only 'reasoning' you have.
Your statement however is that alters hit the wall faster.
How do you know this is some kind of truth of the universe and not just the fact that most people singletap because of reasons?
And that's why if you'd have read the posts you'd have realised even the title of the graph says "Typical players".
It's more common and easier for 1key players to progress in the long term, not all.
I used the front page of the ranking to indicate that MOST of the people who get good use 1key primarily.
EDIT:
It's more common and easier for 1key players to progress in the long term, not all.
I used the front page of the ranking to indicate that MOST of the people who get good use 1key primarily.
EDIT:
I understand, and I am well, well aware that 95% of the top players are singletappers.I don't, it's just what I have seen from observing friends/players in general.
Your statement however is that alters hit the wall faster.
How do you know this is some kind of truth of the universe and not just the fact that most people singletap because of reasons?
It in no way confirms the trend you graphed. Correlation does not equal causation, and there are a number of explanations for the relative lack of alternaters in the top 50, most of which have nothing to do with the actual limitations of alternation.jesus1412 wrote:
Fits the trend very nicely
Quite a few alters switch to single-tap when they hit that wall. That's what is skewing the statistics. I can assure you that the statistic is not 95% because of "follow the leader."EcksDee wrote:
How do you know this is some kind of truth of the universe and not just the fact that most people singletap because of reasons?
I haven't heard of anyone going back to full-alt after changing to single-tap and learning to play it properly. They still alternate when necessary, but primarily single-tap forever after the change because they get the results they want.
I haven't heard of any single-tappers changing to primary full-alt because it seemed better, but the other way around has happened a lot and many alternating players come to these forums and also pm asking for help with complicated maps, whereas single-tappers just post "pls help stream speed AR10 pls". That sounds like enough evidence for me... For whatever reason... You are free to deduce your own.
Top alternating players are seen as exceptional. We seem to set them apart. There's a reason for that and I don't know why, but it exists. It's probably all in our heads, but I wouldn't underestimate what goes on in our heads, as opposed to just our fingers.
You're not going to get any objective evidence, because noone is at the skill cap for the human race. But for those who are still progressing, there is plenty of this "trend."
theres no doubt a lot of factors in what makes a top player but if a lack of one factor is almost always the case, that ONE factor raises red flags. I played WoW and you know why there were no enhancement shamans on a single one of the top 100 arena teams in season 9 [keeping in mind, an arena team, like a player, has many things that make it work well]? enhancement shamans, like alternating, just weren't the most viable way. or it would have been seen more I think.NarrillNezzurh wrote:
It in no way confirms the trend you graphed. Correlation does not equal causation, and there are a number of explanations for the relative lack of alternaters in the top 50, most of which have nothing to do with the actual limitations of alternation.jesus1412 wrote:
Fits the trend very nicely
unless you have a good explanation for the lack of alternators besides lack of viability which I'd be interested in...
It's not unviable. Just harder to master.
yeah but in a game where everyones basically in a constant race to the top in a sense, that makes it unviable. kind of like how a slow car is 'just as good' as a fast car because it can go just as many miles before needing to be serviced, but in the end, it's just not going to be as viable in a competitive setting like that. Yeah the slower/harder to master car/tapping style can get just as far as the faster car, but the fast/easier to master one will always, always be ahead of itjesus1412 wrote:
It's not unviable. Just harder to master.
this analogy might have some flaws and it might be a little over iterated but I think it's valid, probably
I single tap and I think that alternating is farking impossible. I probably am okay at alternating, but not very good since I usually single tap most of the notes.EcksDee wrote:
How is singletapping easier to learn though? When you alternate you know the next note will always be your other finger. When you singletap you gotta think about whether you do need to use your other finger or not. Add onto that the fact that alternating streams when you are a singletapping dude is a completely different set of finger movements being used.Ichi wrote:
It´s faster to improve with singletapping, it is really difficult to alternate correctly, and by that i mean that you FULLY alternate, and not just when a bunch of notes come together, and some other times you single. Singletapping is way more consistent and simpler to learn, simplicity is good, specially for your brain to get used to. I personally alternated when i first started, but i realised i was doing singletapping sometimes, so it wasn´t really a good style, i was caught in the middle of both. I´d say go singletap.
Its like such a roundabout way of playing the game I'm legitimately baffled whenever I see people singletap.
Correlation does not equal causation. That single factor does raise red flags, but without proper evidence you can't prove that it's the cause. Maybe few top players alternate because they started off single-tapping and never found a need to learn to alternate. Perhaps many of those top players are old enough that alternation simply wasn't a commonly known thing when they were learning. Perhaps they just don't see a need to learn it because what they have now is working. And of course, this disparity in the top bracket of players gives alternating a certain stigma, meaning new players are less likely to pick it up, leading to fewer alternating top players a few years down the road. It's entirely likely that these things are reasons why alternating isn't more common, and none of them have to do with the viability of alternating at all.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
theres no doubt a lot of factors in what makes a top player but if a lack of one factor is almost always the case, that ONE factor raises red flags. I played WoW and you know why there were no enhancement shamans on a single one of the top 100 arena teams in season 9 [keeping in mind, an arena team, like a player, has many things that make it work well]? enhancement shamans, like alternating, just weren't the most viable way. or it would have been seen more I think.
unless you have a good explanation for the lack of alternators besides lack of viability which I'd be interested in...
Personally, I've found alternation to be a very valuable skill to have, and I firmly advocate learning it and using it side by side with single tapping. Where one fails, the other shines.
Yes both should be learnt. I'd just advice one is learnt before the other.NarrillNezzurh wrote:
Correlation does not equal causation. That single factor does raise red flags, but without proper evidence you can't prove that it's the cause. Maybe few top players alternate because they started off single-tapping and never found a need to learn to alternate. Perhaps many of those top players are old enough that alternation simply wasn't a commonly known thing when they were learning. Perhaps they just don't see a need to learn it because what they have now is working. And of course, this disparity in the top bracket of players gives alternating a certain stigma, meaning new players are less likely to pick it up, leading to fewer alternating top players a few years down the road. It's entirely likely that these things are reasons why alternating isn't more common, and none of them have to do with the viability of alternating at all.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
theres no doubt a lot of factors in what makes a top player but if a lack of one factor is almost always the case, that ONE factor raises red flags. I played WoW and you know why there were no enhancement shamans on a single one of the top 100 arena teams in season 9 [keeping in mind, an arena team, like a player, has many things that make it work well]? enhancement shamans, like alternating, just weren't the most viable way. or it would have been seen more I think.
unless you have a good explanation for the lack of alternators besides lack of viability which I'd be interested in...
Personally, I've found alternation to be a very valuable skill to have, and I firmly advocate learning it and using it side by side with single tapping. Where one fails, the other shines.
Of course you would prefer alternating over single tap when "single tap fails", because you would rather use an alternative method than putting in the effort to improve your speed/stamina thus hurting you in the long run as you play higher bpm.
It's like taking the elevator rather than the stairs - one takes more effort, sure I might take a while longer to get there but it is more beneficial to me if time isn't of essence.
And what would happen if I kept doing this each day, for each month? Each year? There would be a point where I could probably get there faster than if I took the elevator (unless it was some really large building)
It's like taking the elevator rather than the stairs - one takes more effort, sure I might take a while longer to get there but it is more beneficial to me if time isn't of essence.
And what would happen if I kept doing this each day, for each month? Each year? There would be a point where I could probably get there faster than if I took the elevator (unless it was some really large building)
It's not at all like taking the elevator rather than the stairs. You'll get better at alternating over time, but you'll never get better at taking the elevator. It's more like typing rather than writing on paper. It's more rigid, but far faster.
Now that I think about it, that's not a solid line of thinking at all. What you're suggesting is akin to single-tapping streams because it'll be better for our stamina in the long run.
Now that I think about it, that's not a solid line of thinking at all. What you're suggesting is akin to single-tapping streams because it'll be better for our stamina in the long run.
True it wasn't the best analogy I could come up with the time, but what I was trying to say is that alternating puts nearly no strain or pain on your fingers at all - thus you wouldn't really be training your stamina or speed in any way and the only aspect that you're going to improve is your aim and accuracy (which can be done single tapping also).NarrillNezzurh wrote:
It's not at all like taking the elevator rather than the stairs. You'll get better at alternating over time, but you'll never get better at taking the elevator. It's more like typing rather than writing on paper. It's more rigid, but far faster.
Now that I think about it, that's not a solid line of thinking at all. What you're suggesting is akin to single-tapping streams because it'll be better for our stamina in the long run.
Also, I'm not limiting to what I say as in 150bpm maps with 150bpm 1/4 streams, I'm meaning maps that are 300bpm with 300bpm 1/4 streams and 1/2 single taps. I highly doubt a player that alternates could be more or equally likely to be able to stream that fast compared to a single tap player.
Why? I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the physical motions of single-tapping and streaming are different (wrist motion vs. finger motion), so training one doesn't really help the other. The only way for me to practice streaming high bpm is to stream high bpm.buny wrote:
I highly doubt a player that alternates could be more or equally likely to be able to stream that fast compared to a single tap player.
Topic Starter
Just gave single tapping a decent go and still fairly unsure if it would actually be better for me but going to as most people suggested learn both. I still can't really see how single tapping would improve my speed faster than alternating, I mean if I wanted to "hit the wall" I could just sit there playing maps like End Time for a while till my fingers just die.
Generally the justification for this is that singletapping tires you out faster which trains your muscles more, but as one is in the wrist and the other is in the fingers, I don't see how this can truly be the case.Robbieyo wrote:
Just gave single tapping a decent go and still fairly unsure if it would actually be better for me but going to as most people suggested learn both. I still can't really see how single tapping would improve my speed faster than alternating, I mean if I wanted to "hit the wall" I could just sit there playing maps like End Time for a while till my fingers just die.
if you're using your wrist/arm/elbow to single tap you're doing it wrong. Just the fingers; that's how it works.
Think of it this way: you move one finger the same way you would as if you were streaming.
Practice this with both of your fingers and you can find your limit pretty quickly and train to overcome it.
Gotya Gotya Uruse (220 bpm): https://osu.ppy.sh/b/76638&m=0
This map is good to see how well you handle single tapping. In theory if you can easily do this with both of your fingers (single tapping that is) then you can stream at 220bpm. This can be applied with any bpm. Of course actual stream training would still need to be done, but it's still a good indicator of what you need to practice.
F.I. (180 bpm): https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25828
This is a slower map where the intro is another good indicator, if you can't even do this with both of your fingers then you need to practice it or play more 180-185 bpm maps.
More single tap maps can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... ring#gid=0
Also, If you're not really noticing any difference try lifting your fingers higher. This will pose more of a challenge.
As for my thoughts on alternating, it's just slow streaming, so the concept and being able to do it isn't very difficult. I did it for 3 years when I started osu! and didn't see much improvement, 1 year of single tapping (still continued to this day) has blown away anything I did previously. I remember it was very difficult to switch, but very worth it.
Think of it this way: you move one finger the same way you would as if you were streaming.
Practice this with both of your fingers and you can find your limit pretty quickly and train to overcome it.
Gotya Gotya Uruse (220 bpm): https://osu.ppy.sh/b/76638&m=0
This map is good to see how well you handle single tapping. In theory if you can easily do this with both of your fingers (single tapping that is) then you can stream at 220bpm. This can be applied with any bpm. Of course actual stream training would still need to be done, but it's still a good indicator of what you need to practice.
F.I. (180 bpm): https://osu.ppy.sh/s/25828
This is a slower map where the intro is another good indicator, if you can't even do this with both of your fingers then you need to practice it or play more 180-185 bpm maps.
More single tap maps can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... ring#gid=0
Also, If you're not really noticing any difference try lifting your fingers higher. This will pose more of a challenge.
As for my thoughts on alternating, it's just slow streaming, so the concept and being able to do it isn't very difficult. I did it for 3 years when I started osu! and didn't see much improvement, 1 year of single tapping (still continued to this day) has blown away anything I did previously. I remember it was very difficult to switch, but very worth it.
if you're using your wrist/arm/elbow to single tap you're doing it wrong. Just the fingers; that's how it works.Ugh, unless you are literally cookiezi? I realise that if he did something it doesn't necesarily mean everyone should play exactly like him, but you can't tell consistency of his single tap and streaming wasn't amazing, thus that he did it wrong, or that anyone that has good effects using wrist does it wrong.
I started off single tapping and alternating for sliders
I begin alternating in order to improve my streaming and most Japanese players can alternate and single
(And single tapping through EVERY song is a really really mundane thing to do)
Now I've adapated to a mixed style of alternating and single tapping depending on the situation and yes I use both fingers for single tapping as well regardless of which finger's turn it is to tap. but I can hardly improve in my streaming speed and stamina.
There is no one size fits all thing in this game, you've gotta try it out yourself
I begin alternating in order to improve my streaming and most Japanese players can alternate and single
(And single tapping through EVERY song is a really really mundane thing to do)
Now I've adapated to a mixed style of alternating and single tapping depending on the situation and yes I use both fingers for single tapping as well regardless of which finger's turn it is to tap. but I can hardly improve in my streaming speed and stamina.
There is no one size fits all thing in this game, you've gotta try it out yourself
ThisDexus wrote:
if you're using your wrist/arm/elbow to single tap you're doing it wrong. Just the fingers; that's how it works.
Stop comparing single tapping as wrist tapping, it's like saying double tapping is to alternating...
And yet most liveplays on youtube of singletappers involve a combination of finger and wrist/arm movement for faster singletapping.buny wrote:
ThisDexus wrote:
if you're using your wrist/arm/elbow to single tap you're doing it wrong. Just the fingers; that's how it works.
Stop comparing single tapping as wrist tapping like double tapping is to alternating...
I quoth:
The most efficient method of playing singles with your arm that I found is to
Tense up your finger
Lift your wrist from the table a bit
Move your elbow up and your hand down at the same time
Move your elbow down and your hand up at the same time
Repeat last 2 steps. This essentially is rotating your forearm around the point between your elbow and hand back and forth.
I support the later quote, though I believe some parts are down to preference and style. For instance, I sometime like to rest my wrist on the edge of my keyboard (as it's all curved and stuff). Though the general aspect is the same. Tap with your arm. Not your wrist. Tensing perhaps isn't a must, but I suppose it helps...?EcksDee wrote:
The most efficient method of playing singles with your arm that I found is to
Tense up your finger
Lift your wrist from the table a bit
Move your elbow up and your hand down at the same time
Move your elbow down and your hand up at the same time
Repeat last 2 steps. This essentially is rotating your forearm around the point between your elbow and hand back and forth.
The most efficient method to playing singles that you can't single tap is to alternateEcksDee wrote:
And yet most liveplays on youtube of singletappers involve a combination of finger and wrist/arm movement for faster singletapping.
I quoth:The most efficient method of playing singles with your arm that I found is to
Tense up your finger
Lift your wrist from the table a bit
Move your elbow up and your hand down at the same time
Move your elbow down and your hand up at the same time
Repeat last 2 steps. This essentially is rotating your forearm around the point between your elbow and hand back and forth.
what's your point?
The point is, no-one fucking ever plays any singles past 200 bpm by just using their fingers like streaming with one finger.buny wrote:
The most efficient method to playing singles that you can't single tap is to alternate
what's your point?
Using 200 bpm as a counterpoint is just extreme, as players haven't reached that breakpoint yet (I'd say highest NORMAL single tapping is 180bpm)EcksDee wrote:
The point is, no-one fucking ever plays any singles past 200 bpm by just using their fingers like streaming with one finger.buny wrote:
The most efficient method to playing singles that you can't single tap is to alternate
what's your point?
And even then, 180bpm is a stretch on the capabilities we as humans can reach as of right now. I'm not saying to single tap EVERYTHING, but up to a competitive level such as image material, which is 260bpm and has 260bpm streams and 130bpm singles.
I'm pretty sure 240bpm streams seemed impossible a few years back, now 240bpm and over is seen as hard work and dedication and players that alternated in the past are seen as less skillful because they can't keep up.
Pls stahp.EcksDee wrote:
The point is, no-one fucking ever plays any singles past 200 bpm by just using their fingers like streaming with one finger.
@buny i believe when he said 200 bpm singles he meant 1/2 notes which would be 100 bpm 1/4.
Coffee Hero
I said anything above 200 bpm. I can singletap 200bpm easily, of course. Anything under that I can do with just my fingers, anything over that my body involves the wrist and arm.Shirokami- wrote:
@buny i believe when he said 200 bpm singles he meant 1/2 notes which would be 100 bpm 1/4What, but soooo many people can singletap that, that can't possibly be what he means.
Really that guy doing the image material is the exception not the rule as far as I've seen
Well I'm pretty sure if you can stream 260bpm then you can also do a couple singles on that bpm,but using wrist is so much more reliable/consistent and not half as tiring so why do otherwise? I think what he means is literally the best practice is tapping with your fingers only,but if you really wanted to do a good run youll use your wrist for a certain bpm anyway.EcksDee wrote:
I said anything above 200 bpm. I can singletap 200bpm easily, of course. Anything under that I can do with just my fingers, anything over that my body involves the wrist and arm.
Really that guy doing the image material is the exception not the rule as far as I've seen
Just my 2 cents as an alternate player, but play the way you have more fun.
Even if you could theoretically prove that single-tapping is de facto "better", if the switch is going to be tedious and unfun, it'll just lead to pointless frustration down the line and leave you less motivated to play and perfect your technique.
On the other hand if you have fun learning single-tapping, why not - being a more versatile player is not going to hurt.
Even if you could theoretically prove that single-tapping is de facto "better", if the switch is going to be tedious and unfun, it'll just lead to pointless frustration down the line and leave you less motivated to play and perfect your technique.
On the other hand if you have fun learning single-tapping, why not - being a more versatile player is not going to hurt.
I don't really get it, but when I started I used single tap, I tried alternating and it was awful at first. However, after a few hours I found it waaaaay better then single tap. This was on normal - easy maps tho so idk. I guess i'll try out single tapping again, but alternating seems better, logically you can tap faster with two keys rather than one and having two means you'll tire out slower as well. Personally alternating seems straight up better. The only pro to single tapping appears to be only thinking about one key for the majority of maps imho.
It still doesn't matter, because there's no reason to use a less efficient tool just for the sake of using a less efficient tool. No matter how you do it, streaming isn't the same as just adding a second finger to single-tapping; the added motion of the second finger makes them different on a physiological level, and the alteration to the movement as a whole means the muscle memory doesn't transfer. If anything, alternating is much closer to streaming simply because the motions are identical, so alternating very high bpm maps would train everything but your speed, and if you want to train your streaming speed the best way to do it is to stream.buny wrote:
This
Stop comparing single tapping as wrist tapping, it's like saying double tapping is to alternating...
You claim that single tapping is beneficial because it allows for faster improvement, but you don't seem to get that the reason it allows for faster improvement is because it pushes the player harder, and that it's entirely possible to get that extra push from alternating by simply playing faster maps. I highly doubt that alternating players hit a "stamina wall," and if they do I'd say it's entirely their own fault for not figuring out how to push through it with the tools available to them. I think it's far more likely they hit an accuracy wall.
The walls you hit and their order depends mostly on the person though. Single-tappers hit walls too, and everyone has their own wall/s to overcome. To try and pin 1 of those on alternating is pointless.
Also to say that wrist single-tapping doesn't train your fingers is also a myth. That's like saying we don't use our neck muscles to hold our heads up if we aren't moving it. The impact from hitting the keyboard harder due to using your wrist causes a strain on your finger too. It allows you to tap faster and a marginal improvement to stamina, which quickly becomes a problem again as we step up to even higher BPM's to get the same challenge. As long as you don't settle, the method doesn't matter too much.
Also to say that wrist single-tapping doesn't train your fingers is also a myth. That's like saying we don't use our neck muscles to hold our heads up if we aren't moving it. The impact from hitting the keyboard harder due to using your wrist causes a strain on your finger too. It allows you to tap faster and a marginal improvement to stamina, which quickly becomes a problem again as we step up to even higher BPM's to get the same challenge. As long as you don't settle, the method doesn't matter too much.
he was referring to the technique of only using your finger to tap not wrist, which he believed could not be used above 200 bpm 1/2, thats why i posted keigoclear [aka who?] playing image materialShirokami- wrote:
@buny i believe when he said 200 bpm singles he meant 1/2 notes which would be 100 bpm 1/4What, but soooo many people can singletap that, that can't possibly be what he means.
look at the post he was quoting
nyrox always tells the truthnyrox wrote:
I think singletapping has a more steady improvement because you can always be getting faster.
Alternating, at least for me, gave me a quick spike in improvement but now I'm really struggling to gain speed.
+1337