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Can people please stop being retarded and learn that mental difficulty is just as important as physical difficulty
You guys need to stop acting like just anyone could do fl provided they put enough plays in, which is absolutely not true
FL requires mental skill AND effort, it doesn't make the map physically harder but it's kind of like OD. OD doesn't change physical map difficulty either but an OD10 SS is always goddamn impressive. While nobody is impressed by 2000+ combo FL FCs because they think that the fact you have to retry something often by default doesn't make it a valid form of difficulty.
In terms of skill, if you theoretically managed to train your memory hard enough, you'd only need to play a map once before being able to FL it properly - and even then it would still be very hard to FC some stuff, since even if you know where a note is it's very easy to misaim while using FL. It's not only a matter of memorizing the map, it's a matter of memorizing and exerting an incredible amount of focus to be able to stay consistent, as well as have pretty good aim so that you don't fuck up easily when aiming at literally nothing.
If anything I'd say FL is one of the hardest mods because you need the physical skill to play the map + the mental skill to keep up with FL. Which is sorta like HR in terms of amping mental skill (with AR and OD) except in this case it leaves the map itself intact and instead dramatically increases mental difficulty.
It really looks to me like people only consider FL not to be a real mod because they suck with it
Which is probably the case although nobody will admit to it
You guys need to stop acting like just anyone could do fl provided they put enough plays in, which is absolutely not true
FL requires mental skill AND effort, it doesn't make the map physically harder but it's kind of like OD. OD doesn't change physical map difficulty either but an OD10 SS is always goddamn impressive. While nobody is impressed by 2000+ combo FL FCs because they think that the fact you have to retry something often by default doesn't make it a valid form of difficulty.
In terms of skill, if you theoretically managed to train your memory hard enough, you'd only need to play a map once before being able to FL it properly - and even then it would still be very hard to FC some stuff, since even if you know where a note is it's very easy to misaim while using FL. It's not only a matter of memorizing the map, it's a matter of memorizing and exerting an incredible amount of focus to be able to stay consistent, as well as have pretty good aim so that you don't fuck up easily when aiming at literally nothing.
If anything I'd say FL is one of the hardest mods because you need the physical skill to play the map + the mental skill to keep up with FL. Which is sorta like HR in terms of amping mental skill (with AR and OD) except in this case it leaves the map itself intact and instead dramatically increases mental difficulty.
It really looks to me like people only consider FL not to be a real mod because they suck with it
Which is probably the case although nobody will admit to it
FL is very difficult, no one's denying that, but it requires a skillset that has basically no overlap with standard gameplay.
Also, OD does change physical map difficulty, it just does so indirectly.
Also, OD does change physical map difficulty, it just does so indirectly.
I'll agree with both those statements, since I'm always straining more when there's a higher OD than with a lower one, however I would like to add that the lack of overlap with standard gameplay doesn't mean FL should be disregarded
I've heard and said this before but I think there should be separate FL rankings, that'd pretty much solve the whole shit
Just stop including FL scores in someone's regular ranking and add a Flashlight ranking with cross-platform weightings (all modes). It wouldn't even have to give more pp than if the plays were without FL since the rankings are separate so there's no need to compare it to non-FL plays. So basically an FC on regular gameplay that'd give 200pp would just give 200 FL pp
Though that said FL is easier on other modes than standard so maybe the FL rankings could be std only and if people from other modes want an FL ranking too something could be done about it
I've heard and said this before but I think there should be separate FL rankings, that'd pretty much solve the whole shit
Just stop including FL scores in someone's regular ranking and add a Flashlight ranking with cross-platform weightings (all modes). It wouldn't even have to give more pp than if the plays were without FL since the rankings are separate so there's no need to compare it to non-FL plays. So basically an FC on regular gameplay that'd give 200pp would just give 200 FL pp
Though that said FL is easier on other modes than standard so maybe the FL rankings could be std only and if people from other modes want an FL ranking too something could be done about it
i am best fl player
pls stop aRgument
pls stop aRgument
Topic Starter
Stop being modest, you're obviously the best player period.winber1 wrote:
i am best fl player
pls stop aRgument
Also, farmed some pp today ;w; #gettingPPwhilesick
I'm so deathly ill right now I can't eat anything or else I'll just vomit it out. Gave up trying to eat after the 5th trip and another "Oh god it's up my nose, why does it sting"
I'd laugh if some random FLHD'd Remote Control and took #1 spot.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/79116 ?B1rd wrote:
I'd laugh if some random FLHD'd Remote Control and took #1 spot.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/297411&m=0
those confirmed better than sayonara-bye.
those confirmed better than sayonara-bye.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/505278?m=0 ?Tess wrote:
DTFL is where it's at
yoshilove used to have a HDFL fc on it before getting banned(?), don't remember if it was #1 though?B1rd wrote:
I'd laugh if some random FLHD'd Remote Control and took #1 spot.
EZ HT FL is where it's at
you guys obviously have not seen true skill yet.
you guys obviously have not seen true skill yet.
Certainly not easier on CtB.. If anything then its even harder than on std. FL is really hard with jumps and CtB maps are very jumpy, plus you cant flail your flashlight around to locate stuff - the catcher is too slow for that. Doubt its easier on Taiko, you need to read the patterns there far ahead, but i dont know much about Taiko. Mania doesnt have fl afaik (Replaced by fadeIn/Out?).Tess wrote:
Though that said FL is easier on other modes than standard so maybe the FL rankings could be std only
That probably only applies to slower maps though on standard, if you have time to move the cursor around to locate the circle then you are probably playing a pretty slow map, or are a pro cursor dancer.Granger wrote:
you cant flail your flashlight around to locate stuff - the catcher is too slow for that.Tess wrote:
Though that said FL is easier on other modes than standard so maybe the FL rankings could be std only
FL is always easier on slower maps provided that you can read themwinber1 wrote:
EZ HT FL is where it's at
you guys obviously have not seen true skill yet.
Okay let me line it up for you:Granger wrote:
Certainly not easier on CtB.. If anything then its even harder than on std. FL is really hard with jumps and CtB maps are very jumpy, plus you cant flail your flashlight around to locate stuff - the catcher is too slow for that. Doubt its easier on Taiko, you need to read the patterns there far ahead, but i dont know much about Taiko. Mania doesnt have fl afaik (Replaced by fadeIn/Out?).Tess wrote:
Though that said FL is easier on other modes than standard so maybe the FL rankings could be std only
Catch the Beat requires you to memorize objects across an x axis
Taiko requires you to memorize rhythmic patterns
osu!Mania requires you to memorize
osu!Standard requires you to memorize objects across an x and y axis, and their respective rhythms
FL on Standard is objectively harder than it is on other modes. I don't play Taiko but I know that on Standard I can memorize a map's rhythm in 1-2 plays if it's short, and in 3-5 plays if it's >4 minutes. Never tried to FL anything above 6-7 minutes so I can't say much about that, but I think it's safe to say that most of the memorization goes into placement, not rhythms, and since Standard has two aim dimensions (up/down and left/right) whereas CtB has only one (left/right) as well as no rhythm requirements at all, I think it's safe to say that std is harder than all those other modes.
Also Mania does have FL, or at least I remember reading about it on the wiki.
FL is sightreadable in osu!mania, it is not even considered a difficulty increasing mod for some.
a guy with virtually no playcount outside standard giving lectures on mods he doesnt playTess wrote:
Okay let me line it up for you:
ayyy
Look, Tess, with FL in CtB theres no guideline on which you can orient to, when you dash somewhere the fruit you're supposed to catch is either there or it isnt and you miss. Theres no approach rate for you to help you since your flashlight is stuck on the end of the screen.
Most of the time you cant even see where the next fruit is, or even get a hint of it. You need to memorize far more, even if its only on the x axis, its all jump jump jump here. No conviently close placed notes so you can see the next note(s), which you wont need to memorize.
Nor do you have any time to guess, the slightest delay causes you to miss.
You're basing your conclusion on theory alone.
Most of the time you cant even see where the next fruit is, or even get a hint of it. You need to memorize far more, even if its only on the x axis, its all jump jump jump here. No conviently close placed notes so you can see the next note(s), which you wont need to memorize.
Nor do you have any time to guess, the slightest delay causes you to miss.
You're basing your conclusion on theory alone.
And you aren't?
First of all, you're acting like standard is a compilation of conveniently close placed notes. There are those kinds of maps, yeah, but that doesn't mean that all of them are - there are plenty of crazy jump maps in standard as well, and even though there are followpoints, those aren't an absolute way to follow the map's patterns, especially since the area is dimmed whenever you're holding a slider. On top of that, after 200 combo the area gets reaaally tiny, and you can only really see in a small radius around your cursor. Besides just having to aim, there's also the tapping aspect - you need to memorize the rhythms as well as the locations of the notes and still hit them accurately while staying focused on the playfield patterns so that you don't miss. Most of the time you can't know where the next note is once you get to that small area, and there isn't any time to guess in standard either.
You're heavily underestimating FL in standard, really. I've played enough of CtB to know that there is absolutely no way for something as simplistic (all you need to do is aim from left to right, there is little to no dynamic in it, and you need 0 sense of rhythm to play it) as CtB. Do note that "simplistic" does not mean "easy", however, in this case, if you were to take a map such as remote control and weigh the difficulty of FCing it between std and ctb, std would win that by far. There is no way you can compare the difficulty of remote control's jumps on std to those on ctb. If you can't realize that then you are both ignorant and dense.
First of all, you're acting like standard is a compilation of conveniently close placed notes. There are those kinds of maps, yeah, but that doesn't mean that all of them are - there are plenty of crazy jump maps in standard as well, and even though there are followpoints, those aren't an absolute way to follow the map's patterns, especially since the area is dimmed whenever you're holding a slider. On top of that, after 200 combo the area gets reaaally tiny, and you can only really see in a small radius around your cursor. Besides just having to aim, there's also the tapping aspect - you need to memorize the rhythms as well as the locations of the notes and still hit them accurately while staying focused on the playfield patterns so that you don't miss. Most of the time you can't know where the next note is once you get to that small area, and there isn't any time to guess in standard either.
You're heavily underestimating FL in standard, really. I've played enough of CtB to know that there is absolutely no way for something as simplistic (all you need to do is aim from left to right, there is little to no dynamic in it, and you need 0 sense of rhythm to play it) as CtB. Do note that "simplistic" does not mean "easy", however, in this case, if you were to take a map such as remote control and weigh the difficulty of FCing it between std and ctb, std would win that by far. There is no way you can compare the difficulty of remote control's jumps on std to those on ctb. If you can't realize that then you are both ignorant and dense.
you clearly havent played enough ctb
I finally stopped playing LoL. Time to follow this road and start playing. My playcount is too damn low 
Im not, i know there are super jumpy maps in std, but the vast majority isnt like Remote Controll or (more extreme) Eighto, while this is pretty much the standart in CtB since almost all of its difficulty comes from jumps.Tess wrote:
First of all, you're acting like standard is a compilation of conveniently close placed notes
On top of that, after 200 combo the area gets reaaally tiny, and you can only really see in a small radius around your cursor.Yeah and? Its not like that doesnt happen in CtB, except that this tiny area is locked on the end of the screen.
Besides just having to aim, there's also the tapping aspect - you need to memorize the rhythms as wellDidnt you say earlier that that isnt any kind of more difficult, that you'd manage to do that in only 1-2 plays? You need to do that in CtB too, unlike you said below, CtB DOES require rythm feel, your clicking on the note here is replaced by having to move as soon you caught the fruit.
You're heavily underestimating FL in standard, really.Maybe i am, and so are you underestimating how much of a help things like follow points and approach rates are when using FL.
I've played enough of CtB to know that there is absolutely no way for something as simplistic (all you need to do is aim from left to right, there is little to no dynamic in it, and you need 0 sense of rhythm to play it) as CtB.With 93 plays? Hardly. I bet you havent even played a platter (translates into normal for std), or came across zigzag patterns (moving back and forth at a frequency determined by the BPM, how is that possibly requiring 0 sense of rythm?), just to name a example.
if you were to take a map such as remote control and weigh the difficulty of FCing it between std and ctb, std would win that by far. There is no way you can compare the difficulty of remote control's jumps on std to those on ctb.Oh of course you cant, its a converted map after all, which is mapped much differently than CtB maps.
Lets see, remote controll is considered a "for pros" map? Why dont you compare it to a delunge then (translates to extra in std)?Kurokami wrote:
A small jump (around 2.0x) in CtB is a high one in Standard.
Anyways, this is much offtopic, why dont we take that somewhere else?
Why argue about std when you don't have any std experience :^)
Also extra diffs can be in no way compared to DT maps like that. It is vastly beyond extra difficulty.
Additionally, you are underestimating the difficulty of FL in std, it's not easy in either game mode and requires memory of the map for both.
Your lack of experience of std shows in your argument and likewise for ctb.
Also extra diffs can be in no way compared to DT maps like that. It is vastly beyond extra difficulty.
Additionally, you are underestimating the difficulty of FL in std, it's not easy in either game mode and requires memory of the map for both.
Your lack of experience of std shows in your argument and likewise for ctb.
I'm sorry, do you actually think flailing your cursor around is a viable way to locate objects in standard FL?Granger wrote:
plus you cant flail your flashlight around to locate stuff
yes it is
Maybe at really low object densities, but why would FL be impressive at really low object densities?
val0108 passed airman FL that way
So what?silmarilen wrote:
passed
i could let my 55 yo mother with zero gaming experience play CTB and she would figure it out. Wouldnt happen with any other mode
what so what?Narrill wrote:
So what?silmarilen wrote:
passed
Why is one player's pass on an HP3 map indicative of the viability of mouse-flailing? You can miss whole patterns in airman and still pass.
Yeah passing Airman isn't really a good way to back an FL argument up
Even I can get like halfway through Airman FL on a good day
Also, you're acting as though I'm implying that FL with CtB isn't hard. I'm sure that it can be /very/ hard, but on two maps of roughly the same difficulty level between std and ctb, std would be harder because std is objectively harder than ctb as a mode in itself, purely due to having way more variables and functions. You will never have to deal with awkward or hard to read sliders in ctb. Spaced streams for you won't play much differently than stacked streams because all you do is go from left to right to left to right. I know very well that that doesn't make CtB easy but if you think that a game solely focused around left right left right is harder than a game with two dimensions where you have an entire playfield and infinite possibilities of visual patterns as well as a tapping aspect (CtB players will never have to stream or deal with doubles), then you are really dense, haha
For the record though, Narrill, I've personally found higher object densities to be easier than lower ones with FL
Flailing never does anything significant.
Even I can get like halfway through Airman FL on a good day
Also, you're acting as though I'm implying that FL with CtB isn't hard. I'm sure that it can be /very/ hard, but on two maps of roughly the same difficulty level between std and ctb, std would be harder because std is objectively harder than ctb as a mode in itself, purely due to having way more variables and functions. You will never have to deal with awkward or hard to read sliders in ctb. Spaced streams for you won't play much differently than stacked streams because all you do is go from left to right to left to right. I know very well that that doesn't make CtB easy but if you think that a game solely focused around left right left right is harder than a game with two dimensions where you have an entire playfield and infinite possibilities of visual patterns as well as a tapping aspect (CtB players will never have to stream or deal with doubles), then you are really dense, haha
For the record though, Narrill, I've personally found higher object densities to be easier than lower ones with FL
Flailing never does anything significant.
Ye but guys, let's be real here, in std you move up, down, left, right and click in rhythm at the same time. In ctb, you move.... left and right... The same applies to those modes + FL, the memorization is probably much easier with that much less to memorize, you can't really say you can find the notes by flailing your cursor around, cos you really can't do that unless you are playing extremely slow maps, or maps with really small or a lack of jumps.
I'm not talking about the overall difficulty, just the efficacy of flailing as a means to locate notes.Tess wrote:
For the record though, Narrill, I've personally found higher object densities to be easier than lower ones with FL
Oh okay, misunderstood then.
And cheezstik basically gives a non-sleep deprived version of what I was trying to say
And cheezstik basically gives a non-sleep deprived version of what I was trying to say
I wouldn't brush off ctb as an objectively easier mode. Neither mode is more difficult than the other as both have unique characteristics that vary in terms of difficulty from player to player. Ctb's biggest difficulty factor by far is the incredibly strict keyboard accuracy, as not only do you have to time when to tap but also when to release, and for red jumps your looking at under 10ms hit window that determines the difference between fc and combo break. The precision is phenomenal.