boob cat, lol
anyways goo woobowiz!
anyways goo woobowiz!
forum
The Road to Cookiezi-Tier
posted
Total Posts
2,105
But there is something i dont get. If your goal is Cookiezi-tier skill why are you farming pp
Because he's not really serious about shooting for cookiezi-tier.
Topic Starter
Who said I can't improve while I farm pp?Sancheese wrote:
But there is something i dont get. If your goal is Cookiezi-tier skill why are you farming pp
Is it really just one long farm if I keep getting top plays over time?
I'd say I'm always farming because at the moment my current skill level as determined by pp is ever so slightly behind (by about 100-150 pp I'd estimate). And when I farm the pp needed to match that specific skill level, I've already improved to a point past that level and the cycle continues like some sort of weird improvement cycle.
The only real concerns I have are:
- "When will I cap off in skill?"
- "How can I get over my anxiety issues when FCing harder and harder maps?"
- "Will I ever find out why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch?"
That's like, your opinionNarrillNezzurh wrote:
Because he's not really serious about shooting for cookiezi-tier.
Zare wrote:
huh
yay page 64 let's celebrate
I expected them to open it only to find a sweater instead of the actual console
...Woobowiz wrote:
That's like, your opinion
If you're serious about going cookiezi-tier in a reasonable amount of time, you'll stop caring about pp altogether and work on strengthening the areas in which you're weak, and pp gains will happen naturally as a result. This self-improvement cycle will begin to slow down over time as your speed outpaces your aim and reading, and it will not be pleasant for you to have to make the transition from 230bpm AR8 DT plays to 140bpm CS5.2 HR plays 20k plays from now to learn AR10. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole by pp farming.Woobowiz wrote:
I'd say I'm always farming because at the moment my current skill level as determined by pp is ever so slightly behind (by about 100-150 pp I'd estimate). And when I farm the pp needed to match that specific skill level, I've already improved to a point past that level and the cycle continues like some sort of weird improvement cycle.
Well i never ever play for pp all my top plays are random beatmaps i played and happened to fc in like 1 to 5 tries so i guess rank come by itself. Its still a thousand time slower tho
Topic Starter
When you 100% know that you cannot improve any further even after training (usually mental).Sancheese wrote:
Oh and what is skill cap off
My speed and aim have been dominant since the day I started using a tablet. And as far as I know, I don't see much signs of slowing down (yet).NarrillNezzurh wrote:
This self-improvement cycle will begin to slow down over time as your speed outpaces your aim and reading, and it will not be pleasant for you to have to make the transition from 230bpm AR8 DT plays to 140bpm CS5.2 HR plays 20k plays from now to learn AR10.
Subjective and fallacious unless proven otherwise. (sorry for being difficult, but clearly we're of two different mindsets when it comes to improvement)NarrillNezzurh wrote:
You're just digging yourself a deeper hole by pp farming.
When you 100% know that you cannot improve any further even after training (usually mental).Woobowiz wrote:
Sancheese wrote:
Oh and what is skill cap off
there's always room for improvement. ;]
that's the point
It's not subjective at all. pp farming, by definition, impedes progress. You'll obviously still be improving because of the way ppv2 works, but you won't improve as fast as someone who pushes themself without regard for pp, and you'll only improve on things you're already good at. That means that while your speed will continue to get better over time, you'll eventually reach a point where your aim, reading, and accuracy are all laughable for your rank because all your peers won't have pigeonholed themselves so hard.Woobowiz wrote:
Subjective and fallacious unless proven otherwise. (sorry for being difficult, but clearly we're of two different mindsets when it comes to improvement)
Topic Starter
PP Farming has its own aspect of training consistency (also, wasn't one of PPv2's features was to avoid pp farming? I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere in the wiki).
Either way you're improving, and I'm okay with that. You can't really prove that it improves some faster. it's a big difference between being able to clear a difficult map or clear a map on HR than to FC it, let alone SS it. If you FC it, then you're already forced to farm pp. At any point you're point is invalidated by the fact that eventually it'll all come down to gaining pp. Saying "Farming pp" is way too general and should be specified to the rate you want to gain pp, then you have a sound argument (possibly)
Either way you're improving, and I'm okay with that. You can't really prove that it improves some faster. it's a big difference between being able to clear a difficult map or clear a map on HR than to FC it, let alone SS it. If you FC it, then you're already forced to farm pp. At any point you're point is invalidated by the fact that eventually it'll all come down to gaining pp. Saying "Farming pp" is way too general and should be specified to the rate you want to gain pp, then you have a sound argument (possibly)
You're correct, but only because of what "prove" entails. Given that skill is in no way dependent on pp, it should be obvious that the only effect pp farming of any kind can have on your rate of improvement is negative.Woobowiz wrote:
You can't really prove that it improves some faster.
the issue is that pp rewards Speed and Aim only.
To become a seriously good player there's other things that need to be learned, namely complex reading, even on low ARs and hard rhythms.
examples being Dragonforce maps (the old Lesjuh ones, ofc) or old DJPop maps (JOINT STRUGGLE, Marisa)
there's also maps like vals 0108 style maps, which require a level of consistency and reading that isn't valued by current pp
and eventually, consistent, good accuracy even on OD10, which will be required for decent HR scores
I agree, just by pushing your pp higher using DT on faster maps, you won't improve in other key aspects of the game
then again, playing DT is fun and feels cool, so I can see why one would want to keep doing that
To become a seriously good player there's other things that need to be learned, namely complex reading, even on low ARs and hard rhythms.
examples being Dragonforce maps (the old Lesjuh ones, ofc) or old DJPop maps (JOINT STRUGGLE, Marisa)
there's also maps like vals 0108 style maps, which require a level of consistency and reading that isn't valued by current pp
and eventually, consistent, good accuracy even on OD10, which will be required for decent HR scores
I agree, just by pushing your pp higher using DT on faster maps, you won't improve in other key aspects of the game
then again, playing DT is fun and feels cool, so I can see why one would want to keep doing that
Topic Starter
I beg to differ, accuracy is the most rewardedZare wrote:
the issue is that pp rewards Speed and Aim only.
You need speed and aim to get accuracy
Zare is correct, and I've said this before. Speed and aim become irrelevant once you have enough of both to play the map, but accuracy doesn't become relevant until after that point. It's less important than speed and aim, as it should be.
Topic Starter
So you're rewarded for doing what you're expected to do at the bare minimum. But no matter what, with two similar plays with different accuracies, be it a 1x miss run or an FC, the higher accuracy run will give more pp overall, therefore pp is rewarded the most.NarrillNezzurh wrote:
Zare is correct, and I've said this before. Speed and aim become irrelevant once you have enough of both to play the map, but accuracy doesn't become relevant until after that point. It's less important than speed and aim, as it should be.
The counter argument is not valid, the pp you lose from a miss, also accounts for lost accuracy.
As per the phrasing, it's not fair to say Aim AND Speed are rewarded the most, because those are 2 separate attributes that fight against accuracy for the most influential.
Consider the below image for determining values of pp
Notice how accuracy (although a small margin) is accounted for in the other categories, while Aim and Speed are not present in the other non-respective categories.
And yet you claim accuracy isn't valued the most?
aim is the most important because no fc = no pp unless the miss is towards the end
Topic Starter
Or the beginning (that would be one regretful play)Pettanko wrote:
aim is the most important because no fc = no pp unless the miss is towards the end
Simple counter example to my previous argument if noone wants to bother reading it and prove me wrong.
On the NEUTRAL side, there could possibly not be a "most important" aspect as all 3 can be equally impacting. Considering No aim can provide a near 0 pp play, no speed can also lead to a 0 pp play, and also no accuracy can lead to a 0 pp play (even in the form of a fail).
Also, the fact that each attribute directly influences the other 2, then it can then be determined that all three attributes are equal to some decree (maybe with some bias to accuracy, but that's again up for argument).
Woobi-chan, you're entirely missing my original point
What I was saying was
You can keep going at current pace and push speed and aim higher and higher
you will get pp like hell
you will eventually be called pro
and reach elite ranks on par with sayo and dungeon
but dont ever expect to FC 4D like this
What I was saying was
You can keep going at current pace and push speed and aim higher and higher
you will get pp like hell
you will eventually be called pro
and reach elite ranks on par with sayo and dungeon
but dont ever expect to FC 4D like this
I feel like aim and speed is the most important aspect of pp even though most of my PP comes from acc on od9/9.66/10. I mean, before getting the scores that gave me the most PP (2-4 weeks before) my speed and aim were nowhere near being able to FC that stuff but since I got better and I already had the acc to get good scores, I was able to stop training for 1 day and try to fc stuff I wasn't able to and I ended up dropping like 1k ranks when I was at about 4k rank.
What I mean by this is that acc doesn't matter even a bit if you don't have the aim/speed to back it up. Just look at thelewa when acc was buffed and aim was nerfed. Someone said on his ask.fm "acc buffed gg lewa #1" but his PP didn't go up like that because his scores are quite aim intensive too.
What I mean by this is that acc doesn't matter even a bit if you don't have the aim/speed to back it up. Just look at thelewa when acc was buffed and aim was nerfed. Someone said on his ask.fm "acc buffed gg lewa #1" but his PP didn't go up like that because his scores are quite aim intensive too.
You're confusing player aim, speed, and accuracy with their corresponding stats. Accuracy needs to be accounted for in all three categories because deficiencies in all three skills can cause you to lose points of accuracy on the map. You can lose accuracy for bad aim or low speed just as easily (if not more easily) as for bad accuracy. This actually works in my favor, not yours.Woobowiz wrote:
And yet you claim accuracy isn't valued the most?
bamZare wrote:
Woobi-chan, you're entirely missing my original point
What I was saying was
You can keep going at current pace and push speed and aim higher and higher
you will get pp like hell
you will eventually be called pro
and reach elite ranks on par with sayo and dungeon
but dont ever expect to FC 4D like this
Holorin
Yeah but u know, DT-ing songs is not the way to improve for your level anymore, at least not AR8 insane.
If you wanna be the next Cookiezi, AR10 and practicing high bpm stream are your biggest walls. Just stop worring about pp, grind those AR10 maps. I don't think there is a better way than HR-ing AR8 AR9 songs. Well most map don't have AR10 and if they do they tend to be fucking hard
Still, good luck
I'm really tired of seeing Japan, Korea and Taiwan in the OWC finals again and again 
If you wanna be the next Cookiezi, AR10 and practicing high bpm stream are your biggest walls. Just stop worring about pp, grind those AR10 maps. I don't think there is a better way than HR-ing AR8 AR9 songs. Well most map don't have AR10 and if they do they tend to be fucking hard
Still, good luck
I'm really tired of seeing Japan, Korea and Taiwan in the OWC finals again and again you guys realize you are spewing bullshit out, right?
pp farming, by definition, does not impede progress, because by definition it does not mean that. anyway, this so-called "pp farming" is extremely important in becoming a pro player, not because of the pp, but because of the consistency aspect of osu! "Dumb mistakes" generally happen less as you practice fc-ing maps more. People who rarely ever try to FC maps and who push themselves without limiting themselves to the idea of FC-ing and potential pp end being more inconsistent than those who are accuracy whores and those who do this so-called "pp-farming" and FC-ing maps. And those people will never even have a chance in becoming pro unless they crack down and fix that problem. And trust me there are players who are like this. In my opinion, even jesus, king of g&r, suffers from this a bit.
It's one thing to be able to play something, which is usually what happens when people push themselves on maps they can barely pass, and it's another thing to master something, which is to be able to consistently play well and accurately, which comes from strengthening your foundations, i.e. playing and fc-ing the maps that aren't challenging, but not overly easy to full combo. You need to first push your limits a bit, but then back track (once you are able to read and play it) to master it.
And woobowiz is already doing this. He's fcing a bunch of maps, but he's also playing a bunch other maps that aren't in his videos. It's not like he's fc-ing maps way below his level. They are maps that will take quite a few runs to FC for woobowiz, which is good. I can't say how hard the maps he's playing are, or how much he's pushing himself, but he's obviously playing more maps than the ones in this thread.
And all pros have done this. They do this so-called "pp farming" even before pp was created, while also playing whatever they felt like, generally without any agenda. They played maps which they found fun, which usually were hard ones (because people generally like looking cool and awesome by playing hard maps).
And there are hard AR 8 + DT maps. Quite a few of them actually. They may not train you reaction time, but they still train your speed, stamina, aim, and even accuracy.
pp farming, by definition, does not impede progress, because by definition it does not mean that. anyway, this so-called "pp farming" is extremely important in becoming a pro player, not because of the pp, but because of the consistency aspect of osu! "Dumb mistakes" generally happen less as you practice fc-ing maps more. People who rarely ever try to FC maps and who push themselves without limiting themselves to the idea of FC-ing and potential pp end being more inconsistent than those who are accuracy whores and those who do this so-called "pp-farming" and FC-ing maps. And those people will never even have a chance in becoming pro unless they crack down and fix that problem. And trust me there are players who are like this. In my opinion, even jesus, king of g&r, suffers from this a bit.
It's one thing to be able to play something, which is usually what happens when people push themselves on maps they can barely pass, and it's another thing to master something, which is to be able to consistently play well and accurately, which comes from strengthening your foundations, i.e. playing and fc-ing the maps that aren't challenging, but not overly easy to full combo. You need to first push your limits a bit, but then back track (once you are able to read and play it) to master it.
And woobowiz is already doing this. He's fcing a bunch of maps, but he's also playing a bunch other maps that aren't in his videos. It's not like he's fc-ing maps way below his level. They are maps that will take quite a few runs to FC for woobowiz, which is good. I can't say how hard the maps he's playing are, or how much he's pushing himself, but he's obviously playing more maps than the ones in this thread.
And all pros have done this. They do this so-called "pp farming" even before pp was created, while also playing whatever they felt like, generally without any agenda. They played maps which they found fun, which usually were hard ones (because people generally like looking cool and awesome by playing hard maps).
And there are hard AR 8 + DT maps. Quite a few of them actually. They may not train you reaction time, but they still train your speed, stamina, aim, and even accuracy.
I finally finished reading this thread. This was better than reading a friggin guide.
I agree with this. I've recently been playing a lot of long maps of intermediate difficulty, and trying to FC them, with the purpose of increasing my consistency. Obviously I don't even play online so I can't be farming.winber1 wrote:
you guys realize you are spewing bullshit out, right?
pp farming, by definition, does not impede progress, because by definition it does not mean that. anyway, this so-called "pp farming" is extremely important in becoming a pro player, not because of the pp, but because of the consistency aspect of osu! "Dumb mistakes" generally happen less as you practice fc-ing maps more. People who rarely ever try to FC maps and who push themselves without limiting themselves to the idea of FC-ing and potential pp end being more inconsistent than those who are accuracy whores and those who do this so-called "pp-farming" and FC-ing maps. And those people will never even have a chance in becoming pro unless they crack down and fix that problem. And trust me there are players who are like this. In my opinion, even jesus, king of g&r, suffers from this a bit.
It's one thing to be able to play something, which is usually what happens when people push themselves on maps they can barely pass, and it's another thing to master something, which is to be able to consistently play well and accurately, which comes from strengthening your foundations, i.e. playing and fc-ing the maps that aren't challenging, but not overly easy to full combo. You need to first push your limits a bit, but then back track (once you are able to read and play it) to master it.
And woobowiz is already doing this. He's fcing a bunch of maps, but he's also playing a bunch other maps that aren't in his videos. I can't say how hard the maps he's playing are, or how much he's pushing himself, but he's obviously playing more maps than the ones in this thread.
And all pros have done this. They do this so-called "pp farming" even before pp was created, while also playing whatever they felt like, generally without any agenda. They played maps which they found fun, which usually were hard ones (because people generally like looking cool and awesome by playing hard maps).
I think the word 'farming' is overused, I think it only applies when you're purposely going around and looking for the easiest and most broken maps to full combo that will give the most pp, instead of challenging yourself.
That depends on your definition. I think the most sensible definition would be something along the lines of "amassing as much pp as possible as quickly as possible by maximizing pp returns on time." As most people don't like to play the long game, maximizing pp returns on time generally involves not spending time developing weak skills and instead playing maps that lend themselves to your strong skills, such as AR8 DT TV-sizes for Woobowiz.winber1 wrote:
pp farming, by definition, does not impede progress, because by definition it does not mean that.
Think less explicitly.
all these four digit rank people trying to teach him to reach "top tier" please stop, and get some real advice from top 100 pros.
are you for realdarkmiz wrote:
all these four digit rank people trying to teach him to reach "top tier" please stop, and get some real advice from top 100 pros.
Maybe you should start thinking before posting.
Advices from actual top tier players or from anyone with a functionnal brain will be the same; practice and play more.
There are no difference in the way you improve from #100'000 to #10'000 to #1'000 to #100 to top 10 or number one, the difference is how much they played the game.
So now obviously there are little variation to that, like playing maps that are challenging but not too much to improve your speed/stamina, or playing maps that are relatively easy to you but still not too easy to improve your aim/consistency/accuracy, or playing this mod, or this one, or this kind of map, or this one... but in the end it's the same thing, playing more and playing everything. This does not change from sayo to the random guy sitting at the 286.476th rank.
four digit people only proved they can reach four digits and nothing else
I don't think your post is contributing much.darkmiz wrote:
four digit people only proved they can reach four digits and nothing else
wow, you're like jesus. Please preach to us more, we need your wisdomdarkmiz wrote:
four digit people only proved they can reach four digits and nothing else
And I guess you proved you couldn't use common sense very well, welp.darkmiz wrote:
four digit people only proved they can reach four digits and nothing else
And therefore by definition it does not impede progress. If you didn't read my wall of text, you could at least read it through to see my reasoning as to why this "pp farming" helps. pp farming has such negative connotations, but you can't get anywhere without it (if you are to describe it as broadly as you are right now with woobowiz).NarrillNezzurh wrote:
That depends on your definition. I think the most sensible definition would be something along the lines of "amassing as much pp as possible as quickly as possible by maximizing pp returns on time." As most people don't like to play the long game, maximizing pp returns on time generally involves not spending time developing weak skills and instead playing maps that lend themselves to your strong skills, such as AR8 DT TV-sizes for Woobowiz.winber1 wrote:
pp farming, by definition, does not impede progress, because by definition it does not mean that.
Think less explicitly.
Personally I would say pp farming does not apply very often, and it is not applying to woobowiz, since he is not trying to maximize pp returns based on time efficiency. He's not fishing through profiles or osu!trainer for maps. He may be fc-ing half in hopes for pp, but also half in hopes to actually get the full combo itself (which is satisfying in it of itself and as I said ealier, actually helps master the largely unnoticed skills in osu!).
Honestly he has a point, despite perhaps being a little too blunt about it. Your knowledge in life comes from experience, and people can make inferences, based on experiences similar or analogous, on subjects unknown, but they themselves have not yet experienced or learned from failure in reaching such a point in life. Their input is valuable, but not to be completely and fully trusted.GoldenWolf wrote:
And I guess you proved you couldn't use common sense very well, welp.darkmiz wrote:
four digit people only proved they can reach four digits and nothing else
Final point is that you guys are all like, "you aren't gonna get anywhere by doing this," but wtf he's literally doing what the other pros did back when they were training. As I said, they had no agenda. Sure they didn't neglect the other mods completely, but neither is woobowiz. some people learn better by taking a whole bunch of things at once, learning from each at the same time. Others learn better by mastering things one by one.
Well ppv2 is broken too seeing that a Scarlet Rose SS = 175pp