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Can hardwork overcome natural talent?

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Tamako Lumisade
Talent helps you to improve faster. Some of people has better feeling of rhytm, some of them has it worse. If I'd play on a piano for my whole life, will I be better than Chopin or someone?
GoldenWolf

Husky wrote:

If I'd play on a piano for my whole life, will I be better than Chopin or someone?
You won't know until you try.
Foneza
To be a 'natural' at something, it's like a god's gift. But 'hardwork' is more satisfying in the end. You're able to win 'natural talented' people with 'hardwork'. I don't know. It's just you have to 'FEEL' it yourself.

AND YES, HARDWORK CAN OVERCOME NATURAL TALENT.
But time will tell.
takaharrue
I guess some people must have the guide to play osu! coded in their genes somewhere. Huh, that's really funny. I guess I should just kill myself over and over until' I get that gene.

-_-
Foneza

takaharrue wrote:

I guess some people must have the guide to play osu! coded in their genes somewhere. Huh, that's really funny. I guess I should just kill myself over and over until' I get that gene.

-_-
I Feel You Bro.
takaharrue


Oh no worries, guys. I found it, I guess there is a gene that codes for Osu! skill after all. Wow, that's funny. I should submit my findings to a scientific journal.
Karuta-_old_1

takaharrue wrote:



Oh no worries, guys. I found it, I guess there is a gene that codes for Osu! skill after all. Wow, that's funny. I should submit my findings to a scientific journal.
where did you get this?
Vuelo Eluko

[MY] yummy90 XP wrote:

takaharrue wrote:



Oh no worries, guys. I found it, I guess there is a gene that codes for Osu! skill after all. Wow, that's funny. I should submit my findings to a scientific journal.
where did you get this?
probably mad it himself

edit: im leaving that typo there
nrl
There's a pretty big misconception here that "talent" is some sort of baseline level of skill, and that's not really true. Rather, it represents your ability to learn that skill. It isn't a substitute for hard work, it's a supplement. Because of this, it's both totally possible and completely impossible to overcome natural talent with hard work; you don't need natural talent at all, but if you had more of it you would undoubtedly be a better player than you are currently.
GoldenWolf

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
XGeneral2000
I don't know why anybody cares about this. We can circlejerk about this all day, about the definition of talent and whether it's genetic or based on learning and parallel skills or just Ondore's lies, but in the end, nothing changes at all.

If talent exists and you don't have it, you will never have it. All you have, and all you'll ever have, is hard work. Thinking really hard about talent and what it is and how significant it is won't give you any of it. The guy who has half your rank with half your playcount will still be better than you, and there is nothing you can do about it, except maybe play some more. That guy probably doesn't worry about talent, and neither should you.

If you want to think of alternate ways to get better besides retryx1000, you can look at changing your mentality, or the way you read maps, or your equipment/settings/skin/monitor/whatever - things you can actually change. Watch your replays, look at what you do wrong. Watch top replays, look at what they do differently from you. But thinking about stuff you can't change just wastes your time and makes you mad.

tl;dr just go play
takaharrue
I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Ethelon

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
<Removed a bit here about my own play.>

Are you trying to claim that a certain amount of plays is necessary to reach certain rankings?
Rewben2

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Just scrolling through the performance charts I can see plenty of people that are rank 13k~ with 5-6k playcount.
Foneza

Rewben2 wrote:

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Just scrolling through the performance charts I can see plenty of people that are rank 13k~ with 5-6k playcount.
^ THEY LIED.
GoldenWolf

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Now that's pretentious.
Jordan
No it won't. It's like saying you'll run as fast as Usain Bolt if you try hard enough. You just won't, because he's got perfect genetics and you don't. Same goes for osu!, there are people who get insanely good at the game incredibly fast and others take up to 2 years to be able to even fc nomod insanes (me lol) playing for the same amount of time as said talented person. tl;dr Hard work beats talent but only if talent but only if talent doesn't work hard. You think Cookiezi really tried THIS hard to be good? He probably was at my current skill level in 5 or 6 months of playing. And I play since more than 3 years.
TheVileOne
If you have the time to spend 6 hours a day playing nothing but maps with DT then sure. You may not be #1 quality, but certainly you could be someone well above average. I would say mostly anyone has the potential to be in the top 1000 if they had enough patience. Very few people have the time or the patience to avoid bad habits, and the road isn't exactly enjoyable, which makes it hardly worth the effort to try to become the next cookiezi. I mean Cookiezi played the game until he went blind and it probably wasn't fun.
GoldenWolf

Jordan wrote:

No it won't. It's like saying you'll run as fast as Usain Bolt if you try hard enough. You just won't, because he's got perfect genetics and you don't. Same goes for osu!, there are people who get insanely good at the game incredibly fast and others take up to 2 years to be able to even fc nomod insanes (me lol) playing for the same amount of time as said talented person. tl;dr Hard work beats talent but only if talent but only if talent doesn't work hard. You think Cookiezi really tried THIS hard to be good? He probably was at my current skill level in 5 or 6 months of playing. And I play since more than 3 years.

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
VoidnOwO
:oops:
GoldenWolf

BRBP wrote:

you're proud of your rank/playcount ratio. You should be.
What.

This has nothing to do with that at all. Those "talented" people I see are only people who play (much) more than other players, play the right maps instead of retrying easy stuff for SS or whatever, and understand themselves what they do wrong and how to fix that asap (And no I don't think the latter qualify as a "talent")
If anything it's a luck factor of finding the right maps to play/practice on, or spending more time to find them than others

It just really irks me when people are saying X is better than them because they have "talent", when in fact they weren't playing/practicing as much/efficent as them
Clappy

takaharrue wrote:



Oh no worries, guys. I found it, I guess there is a gene that codes for Osu! skill after all. Wow, that's funny. I should submit my findings to a scientific journal.
thread...
takaharrue

Rewben2 wrote:

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Just scrolling through the performance charts I can see plenty of people that are rank 13k~ with 5-6k playcount.

And we know none of them are 2'nd account/offline players, right?!?! Yeah. Also, they could have pp farmed.

I'm done with this gameplay and ranking forum community and its autism.
Clappy

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
Ignorant, I was your rank with less than half of your playcount, a little less than 5k and osu is my first rhythm game.
nooblet

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
I was expecting to see a better rank/PC out of someone with the guts to say that butSure let's just accept that. But guess what! Nobody cares how talented you are. People only care how good you are, regardless of play count.
So what if it took Uan 200k plays to get to rank 1XX (Not sure what his peak was, he's dropping it apparently)? Does it mean he's bad or worse than other people his rank with less PC? I highly doubt it. Heck, just check the ranking list, there are people in the top 50 that have a fraction of rrtyui's plays, does that mean they're "more talented" than him? Even if they are, again - nobody cares. Better is better, nobody cares how "talented" you think you are.
Jordan

GoldenWolf wrote:

Jordan wrote:

No it won't. It's like saying you'll run as fast as Usain Bolt if you try hard enough. You just won't, because he's got perfect genetics and you don't. Same goes for osu!, there are people who get insanely good at the game incredibly fast and others take up to 2 years to be able to even fc nomod insanes (me lol) playing for the same amount of time as said talented person. tl;dr Hard work beats talent but only if talent but only if talent doesn't work hard. You think Cookiezi really tried THIS hard to be good? He probably was at my current skill level in 5 or 6 months of playing. And I play since more than 3 years.

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
So you're claiming genetics don't exist? Everybody is a machine made in the same way?
Clappy

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
So you're claiming genetics don't exist? Everybody is a machine made in the same way?


Genetics will only get so far in aiding your climb to the top, if we pull 100 people off of the streets what are the chances one of them can maintain a 220bpm single tap without ever playing osu ?
Jordan

Clappy wrote:

Aqo wrote:

natural talent is an excuse by people who refuse to hard work
So you're claiming genetics don't exist? Everybody is a machine made in the same way?


Genetics will only get so far in aiding your climb to the top, if we pull 100 people off of the streets what are the chances one of them can maintain a 220bpm single tap without ever playing osu ?
Nobody will be able to. Genetics will determine who will learn how to do it with less effort than others.
Clappy

Jordan wrote:

Clappy wrote:

So you're claiming genetics don't exist? Everybody is a machine made in the same way?


Genetics will only get so far in aiding your climb to the top, if we pull 100 people off of the streets what are the chances one of them can maintain a 220bpm single tap without ever playing osu ?
Nobody will be able to. Genetics will determine who will learn how to do it with less effort than others.
I'm sorry, but genetics really can not determine if you can 220 single tap because single tapping is more than just learning how to do it, you physically can not and I repeat can not sustain such a high bpm single tap because, whatever hand you choose to tap with does not have the muscle nor stamina to sustain such high energy movement. You will need to build muscle in that hand and that will only come with practice, regardless of genetics.
usa

Clappy wrote:

You will need to build muscle in that hand and that will only come with practice, regardless of genetics.
uhh, just so people don't get the wrong idea...
you barely have any muscles in your hands, and the ones you use regarding finger movement for osu! come from the forearm muscles.
so if you think the pain and stiffness in your finger joints is you building muscles, you're on your way to firetrucking up your fingers for no reason.

also, as far as genetics is concerned in osu!, it only determines the maximum limit for how fast and fluently you can move your fingers.
in terms of skill growth in osu!, that's mainly determined by the amount of practice as well as the efficiency of the training regiment.
pooptartsonas

Clappy wrote:

Jordan wrote:

Nobody will be able to. Genetics will determine who will learn how to do it with less effort than others.
I'm sorry, but genetics really can not determine if you can 220 single tap because single tapping is more than just learning how to do it, you physically can not and I repeat can not sustain such a high bpm single tap because, whatever hand you choose to tap with does not have the muscle nor stamina to sustain such high energy movement. You will need to build muscle in that hand and that will only come with practice, regardless of genetics.
And suddenly genes don't affect your physical capabilities at all?? I don't get why it's such a hard concept that genetics affect EVERYTHING YOU EVER DO because everyone has different genes. It's one thing to argue that genetics have a minimal impact (which btw I don't agree with at all), but I don't see how people can seriously argue that genes have no effect on ability to progress in osu!.
takaharrue

nooblet wrote:

takaharrue wrote:

I can guarantee you there is not a single person on Osu! with half my play count and half my rank that is better than me that isn't a 2nd account or someone who's had a lot of experience in other rhythm games.
I was expecting to see a better rank/PC out of someone with the guts to say that butSure let's just accept that. But guess what! Nobody cares how talented you are. People only care how good you are, regardless of play count.
So what if it took Uan 200k plays to get to rank 1XX (Not sure what his peak was, he's dropping it apparently)? Does it mean he's bad or worse than other people his rank with less PC? I highly doubt it. Heck, just check the ranking list, there are people in the top 50 that have a fraction of rrtyui's plays, does that mean they're "more talented" than him? Even if they are, again - nobody cares. Better is better, nobody cares how "talented" you think you are.
People with less retries just have a different take at getting better. I came from a game where you had to retry 100s of times over and over before you got a good "time" in the game. So, retrying over and over is what I'm used to. That explains my high play count. Also, I'm currently playing Osu! with a rubber dome keyboard and a 120 fps laptop, and that's not good considering hardware is one of the most important things in Osu!, so I'm basically kind of crippled.

Also, just stop saying there is such a thing as talent. What kind of gene is gonna make you better at Osu!? Strong fingers? Anything that the average person can't improve on their own without having the genetics for? No. No one is just born with the ability to be good at Osu!. Do you know how ridiculous people sound when they say stuff like that? Even if you are "talented" anyone can catch up to your skill and then you will be on the same level, regardless that the other person is considered "talented". There's no one that will always be better than you no matter how hard you try, and no one that will be better than you with the same amount of total effort. I feel like people are just giving up on themselves when they say "oh ill never be gud cuz ppl r born with the genetics to play osu!! and i wasnt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clappy

pooptartsonas wrote:

Clappy wrote:

Nobody will be able to. Genetics will determine who will learn how to do it with less effort than others.
I'm sorry, but genetics really can not determine if you can 220 single tap because single tapping is more than just learning how to do it, you physically can not and I repeat can not sustain such a high bpm single tap because, whatever hand you choose to tap with does not have the muscle nor stamina to sustain such high energy movement. You will need to build muscle in that hand and that will only come with practice, regardless of genetics.
And suddenly genes don't affect your physical capabilities at all?? I don't get why it's such a hard concept that genetics affect EVERYTHING YOU EVER DO because everyone has different genes. It's one thing to argue that genetics have a minimal impact (which btw I don't agree with at all), but I don't see how people can seriously argue that genes have no effect on ability to progress in osu!.[/quote]

genetics affect EVERYTHING YOU EVER DO because everyone has different genes

hair color affect EVERYTHING YOU EVER DO because everyone has different hair color

Genes may have an affect on what you physically but what is so hard to move a cursor and click a few circles rhythmically? Now I do agree that genes affect everything you do, but it's not because everyone has different genes. What I'm trying to say here is, genes have no impact at all because everyone needs to develop of rhythm and until you can pull someone off of the streets that can single tap 220bpm consistently and accurately, genes have no impact because NO ONE IS BORN PROGRAMMED TO PLAY THIS FUCKING GAME.
pooptartsonas
Some people's brains are more easily able to understand rhythm and build the muscle memory required, so some people will take less time to build accuracy skill. Some people naturally have stronger wrists, so once they get used to the mechanics of streaming, they will be much better at it with less time. And so on. Of course people are not born programmed to play the game, but that doesn't mean nothing we are born with affects how we play the game...
nooblet

takaharrue wrote:

People with less retries just have a different take at getting better. I came from a game where you had to retry 100s of times over and over before you got a good "time" in the game. So, retrying over and over is what I'm used to. That explains my high play count. Also, I'm currently playing Osu! with a rubber dome keyboard and a 120 fps laptop, and that's not good considering hardware is one of the most important things in Osu!, so I'm basically kind of crippled.

Also, just stop saying there is such a thing as talent. What kind of gene is gonna make you better at Osu!? Strong fingers? Anything that the average person can't improve on their own without having the genetics for? No. No one is just born with the ability to be good at Osu!. Do you know how ridiculous people sound when they say stuff like that? Even if you are "talented" anyone can catch up to your skill and then you will be on the same level, regardless that the other person is considered "talented". There's no one that will always be better than you no matter how hard you try, and no one that will be better than you with the same amount of total effort. I feel like people are just giving up on themselves when they say "oh ill never be gud cuz ppl r born with the genetics to play osu!! and i wasnt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Plz. I play on a laptop with the laptop keyboard.

Although I do agree about the talent stuff. People, just play the game, ffs stop making excuses for yourselves. I really doubt anyone can not be good if they seriously had something like 200k play count without mindlessly spamming retries. Sure, some may need more/less, but it won't change the fact that the ONLY way to get better is to PLAY THE FUCKING GAME MORE. Who cares if it takes a few thousand more tries? If you're not improving enough to make yourself happy then just quit.
takaharrue

nooblet wrote:

takaharrue wrote:

People with less retries just have a different take at getting better. I came from a game where you had to retry 100s of times over and over before you got a good "time" in the game. So, retrying over and over is what I'm used to. That explains my high play count. Also, I'm currently playing Osu! with a rubber dome keyboard and a 120 fps laptop, and that's not good considering hardware is one of the most important things in Osu!, so I'm basically kind of crippled.

Also, just stop saying there is such a thing as talent. What kind of gene is gonna make you better at Osu!? Strong fingers? Anything that the average person can't improve on their own without having the genetics for? No. No one is just born with the ability to be good at Osu!. Do you know how ridiculous people sound when they say stuff like that? Even if you are "talented" anyone can catch up to your skill and then you will be on the same level, regardless that the other person is considered "talented". There's no one that will always be better than you no matter how hard you try, and no one that will be better than you with the same amount of total effort. I feel like people are just giving up on themselves when they say "oh ill never be gud cuz ppl r born with the genetics to play osu!! and i wasnt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Plz. I play on a laptop with the laptop keyboard.

Although I do agree about the talent stuff. People, just play the game, ffs stop making excuses for yourselves. I really doubt anyone can not be good if they seriously had something like 200k play count without mindlessly spamming retries. Sure, some may need more/less, but it won't change the fact that the ONLY way to get better is to PLAY THE FUCKING GAME MORE. Who cares if it takes a few thousand more tries? If you're not improving enough to make yourself happy then just quit.
Yea, I think what I should have said was some people might be better than me with less effort because it's easier to play with a good keyboard/computer and I didn't get a tablet until a month 1/2 ago, i've really only been active for like 2 months, the other 5 months were me playing like barely once a week.
SanicHegehog
u haf 2 go fas

wen go rly fas can be over the word come

lik dis

over
come

den u put werds on top fastr

hardwork over
come natural talent

c nao u overcim
Ethelon

takaharrue wrote:

Yea, I think what I should have said was some people might be better than me with less effort because it's easier to play with a good keyboard/computer and I didn't get a tablet until a month 1/2 ago, i've really only been active for like 2 months, the other 5 months were me playing like barely once a week.
I can't even tell if you're serious anymore. I play with a laptop keyboard. And what does a tablet have to do with anything.

I've played "actively" for almost 60 days and had roughly 250 plays over 9 months. 5 of those months I didn't even play. Sound like a similar situation?
Add that to the ~3-4k plays it took me to get your ranking and you're telling me that my gaming laptop allowed me to grab your ranking in 1/3 of your plays?

No. Just like GoldenWolf said, it's about efficiency in identifying barriers to improvement, and then grinding them out. It's not a big deal, and I don't see the point to bragging about rank/playcount ratio. You're still going to have to play a ton to get better and who really cares about play count. It's not like dragonhuman is better than rrtyui because he has half his playcount.
Granger
Ah, yes, whats talent? A good question indeed, but its pointless to think about it or even fight against others with your oponion.

In my oponion talent does exist and is the sum of various factors, be it things such as genes, personality and other per person things. Therefore you cant accurately measure it, talent got way too much variables, most of which we wouldnt even know they're here.

Its subjective on the person what they view talent as, oponions about have a wide range.
In my oponion talent is the ability to learn a specific skill, on a personal level, this excludes factors such as equipment, further watering down what one can define as talent...

In my oponion the Touhou game "Labyrinth of Touhou" reflexes a good (albeit simplified) idea about talent:



Im taking the extreme example of Patchouli Knowledge, shes very talented in magic power. Now magic power could be any other skill, as example, rythm feel to make it Osu! related.
The screenshot shows the skill upgrade screen which shows us two things, Patchy is already good at magic power, thats because of a mixture of genes, personality, past experiences and so on.
It also shows us that further upgrading her magic power costs only 1 skill point. Thats because shes talented at is, whatever talent might be for you.
She needs less effort to get better in that skill.

Now shes bad a physical skills (which could be again any other skill, say... cooking), she starts like this because her past experiences, genes, blablabla, etc etc. Not only that, shes also untalented at it: Upleveling her attack skill takes whopping 7 skillpoints compared to the 1 point for magic power.
She needs to put in more effort to get better at it.

However, if she is willing to make all this effort, she can also get good at it, better than some other person who might be talented at this skill. (sorry, id like to put a picture of her having more atk than Remillia Scarlet, which deffinitively is possible, but it takes more effort than im willing to make for this post)

Now both in the game, real life, and osu, you get skillpoints for doing hard work. When you wont put effort you wont get better, simple as that.

However unlike this game, you dont get to distribute your skillpoints freely in real life and since Osu! depends on your real life skill you wont get to distribute freely for Osu! either.

TL;DR Talented people will always learn the skills faster than those who arent as much talented, but the untalented can make it up by giving it more effort.

Edit: See this one person who rises faster in the ranks than you do? Maybe hes more talented than you... Maybe hes not but puts extra effort.
El Koko
seriously is there really anyone who's born with the talent to click circles

anyway, the more effort you put into (pretty much anything), the better you'll become. as long as you keep working hard you'll naturally become better than others... some peope just become better faster, doesn't mean you can't catch up to them.

(the title of the thread had a nice, simple idea but everyone just went way deep discussing about it wth)
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