Would love to see how this will work out.
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Touhosu! / Dodge the Beat
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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
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she_old
Lol...she wrote:
You'd probably smash all the danmaku away with your tennis bat.- 1 - wrote:
Would love to see how this will work out.
This really isn't assigned. Assigned means it has been started. I should remove the assigned tag.
Actually we need Tennisu! mode more, there's nothing related to sports in this stupid game yet, but enough (too much) weeabooshit for everyone.- 1 - wrote:
Would love to see how this will work out.
So an osu! mode based off of Touhou, seems legit.
It does?
I saw a video and I think that was how touhosu could work
see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nQXsmlU3Ps
see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nQXsmlU3Ps
^can't compete with beat hazard. #BeatHazard4Lyfe
So is Bullet Osu or w/e the disputed name is, stuck in limbo or something?
I know something distinct from touhou is wanted but seriously just mesh a shooter and rhythm game and I'd be happy for about 10 years.
I mean I'd be more than happy to see a shooter version of CTB. oh well
I know something distinct from touhou is wanted but seriously just mesh a shooter and rhythm game and I'd be happy for about 10 years.
I mean I'd be more than happy to see a shooter version of CTB. oh well
I don't know if this can help but I think it gives a good idea on how to do it.peppy wrote:
Just to clear things up, I generally have an idea of how this will be implemented already in my head (when/if it is) and may or may not consider any suggestions. For this reason I won't actively participate in this discussion but will monitor it. Keep in mind that I have played touhou and other danmaku games, so suggesting things already done in those is a bit moot. Try and thing of original aspects which will bring rhythm and bullets together in an awesome way if you are looking to positively contribute.
http://youtu.be/KnoUG4RwjSk
Need to have more bullets to avoid than enemies to shoot downIgor-Sonic wrote:
I don't know if this can help but I think it gives a good idea on how to do it.
http://youtu.be/KnoUG4RwjSk
Danmaku is the word.
Edit:
I was too lazy to record/upload video earlier
Ultra difficulty (on "view" mode)
Link for anyone interested
http://www.utgsoftware.net/games/newcur ... /index.htm
+1
TouhouNerd
lol that's ironic coming from someone called "TouhouNerd" xD
I don't know if anyone said this before. 10 pages is a lot to read. If these points are duplicate, just consider this support to the original.
1. Touhou danmaku thrive by having good and meaningful patterns. So, it would be good to separate the standard mode from touhosu. That means, no generation from standard to touhosu.
2. In-game editor may be too much to handle. Every bullet have to be placed manually? Hardly possible. In-game editor provides some basic patterns? That would take away the beauty of variety of danmaku. So, I am thinking of using scripts. For general idea, something like these:
a. danmakufu-like script (those videos on the first 2 pages are from danmakufu, and they have their own script to generate patterns.)
b. Javascript interpreter and a library to support it. (Like what Adobe does with ExtendScript)
c. Lua interpreter and a library.
d. Any other programming/scripting language that is appropriate. (aka you get the point)
3. As most Touhou original songs (i.e. with artist ZUN) are already ranked, I think when submitting, we should be able to "add difficulty to existing map". I know this requires changes to be made in the database, but hey, it isn't that bad. :/
Well, apart from the suggestions, here is my opinion. I AM A TOUHOUNERD. (just saying)
1. If there were a Touhosu! mode, I can foresee myself going crazy making danmaku. So "no one's gonna make it" is invalid argument.
2. Touhosu! will be even more "irrelevant" to the rhythm game genre (e.g. when compared to CTB). If there were Touhosu, soon there will be osu!craft where you fight zombies and mine according to music(i.e. not rhythm game anymore), and finally My Little Posu!ny, where MLP episodes will be made into MAD according to music(i.e. not game anymore). I support the idea of Touhosu!, but still, this is something to consider.
3. Even more people with crazy skill will pop up from nowhere. (we have Cookiezi for standard, Remilia-Scarlet for mania, not sure about CTB and taiko, never checked)
4. Touhou with DT/HD/FL will be fun!
1. Touhou danmaku thrive by having good and meaningful patterns. So, it would be good to separate the standard mode from touhosu. That means, no generation from standard to touhosu.
2. In-game editor may be too much to handle. Every bullet have to be placed manually? Hardly possible. In-game editor provides some basic patterns? That would take away the beauty of variety of danmaku. So, I am thinking of using scripts. For general idea, something like these:
a. danmakufu-like script (those videos on the first 2 pages are from danmakufu, and they have their own script to generate patterns.)
b. Javascript interpreter and a library to support it. (Like what Adobe does with ExtendScript)
c. Lua interpreter and a library.
d. Any other programming/scripting language that is appropriate. (aka you get the point)
3. As most Touhou original songs (i.e. with artist ZUN) are already ranked, I think when submitting, we should be able to "add difficulty to existing map". I know this requires changes to be made in the database, but hey, it isn't that bad. :/
Well, apart from the suggestions, here is my opinion. I AM A TOUHOUNERD. (just saying)
1. If there were a Touhosu! mode, I can foresee myself going crazy making danmaku. So "no one's gonna make it" is invalid argument.
2. Touhosu! will be even more "irrelevant" to the rhythm game genre (e.g. when compared to CTB). If there were Touhosu, soon there will be osu!craft where you fight zombies and mine according to music(i.e. not rhythm game anymore), and finally My Little Posu!ny, where MLP episodes will be made into MAD according to music(i.e. not game anymore). I support the idea of Touhosu!, but still, this is something to consider.
3. Even more people with crazy skill will pop up from nowhere. (we have Cookiezi for standard, Remilia-Scarlet for mania, not sure about CTB and taiko, never checked)
4. Touhou with DT/HD/FL will be fun!
This is a video from another forum, very inspiring. If there's ways to script it so that the player has to move to match the beat (like 3:04) it'd be awesome.
0:55 also a nice idea for mania skin.
0:55 also a nice idea for mania skin.
0:55 - I see Taiko there.
Well yeah I guess that can be used for taiko too.
Was thinking to get Koakuma to fill different rows of the shelf for mania.
Was thinking to get Koakuma to fill different rows of the shelf for mania.
Yeah, this is actually a really good place to start. Instead of a classic touhou style where the bullets spawn to the beat, have it so the player must move to the beats. We could have different patterns for different movements, and if you let go of a key you go back to neutral position. This makes hold notes, normal beats, and possibly some other stuff possible. Let me vent some ideas out.
The source of bullets will be a circular entity. It will pulse to the beat, making a translucent circle that expands towards the player (probably at the designated approach rate from osu!standard maps). This would be like the barline on taiko or osu!mania. Any and all hit objects will be placed on these circles. If a hitobject is placed off of a beat, (eighth/sixteenth notes), a fainter circle will be put there to indicate that there is a hitobject there.
Player loses health when they get hit by a bullet, and they gain health when they successfully dodge one. Sudden Death will make one hit = kill, and the damage is calculated by the health drain difficulty setting.
The player has 3 main positions. Neutral, Left, and Right. Pressing a key down will make the character move in that direction, and letting a key go will put you back in neutral.
When you dodge a bullet, you get a "graze" bonus based on your timing.
Here are the potential differences in hitobjects.
Normal Beat: Moving from neutral position to one of two sides, to avoid a single bullet headed straight for you. You get extra points if you input the dodge at the right time. Holding the directional key to avoid multiple bullets will cause every other bullet to be scored as a 50 instead of a 300, and the player's health would not increase for it.
Specific Beat: Requires you to move to one side, dependant on which side has a free spot. Bullets spawned by this hitobject are placed in the neutral position AND in one of the two directions you can dodge in, limiting you to only one of the two sides. The secondary bullet would be highlighted in some way, probably by being a bit bigger or brighter. This could probably be mapped to one of the hitsounds, or certain movement patterns in osu.
Hold Notes: The laser. The entity starts glowing or shining (as if it was charging), then it makes a thin line that goes over the neutral position a few beats before it arrives. You can pass through it as it has not arrived yet. Expands to a bigger line once it arrives. Requires the player to hold the left or right button until it is done. Multiple lasers can be read by looking at the charge animation. Counting how many of them happen and when they happen should give you a good sense on when they appear. This can be combined with specific beats, with multiple thin lines hinting on which sides to avoid.
Don't know what to do for spinners. We could make them press the up arrow to the beat or something to do a little taunt or dance, but I'm not sure.
This should be good enough for now. If you can't visualize it, I'll draw (MS Paint or lazy photoshop) a draft of the circle thing. Just visualize the osu! logo on the title screen, where the circles it pulses out to the beat have little circles stuck to them. Now imagine dodging them like in the video.
The source of bullets will be a circular entity. It will pulse to the beat, making a translucent circle that expands towards the player (probably at the designated approach rate from osu!standard maps). This would be like the barline on taiko or osu!mania. Any and all hit objects will be placed on these circles. If a hitobject is placed off of a beat, (eighth/sixteenth notes), a fainter circle will be put there to indicate that there is a hitobject there.
Player loses health when they get hit by a bullet, and they gain health when they successfully dodge one. Sudden Death will make one hit = kill, and the damage is calculated by the health drain difficulty setting.
The player has 3 main positions. Neutral, Left, and Right. Pressing a key down will make the character move in that direction, and letting a key go will put you back in neutral.
When you dodge a bullet, you get a "graze" bonus based on your timing.
Here are the potential differences in hitobjects.
Normal Beat: Moving from neutral position to one of two sides, to avoid a single bullet headed straight for you. You get extra points if you input the dodge at the right time. Holding the directional key to avoid multiple bullets will cause every other bullet to be scored as a 50 instead of a 300, and the player's health would not increase for it.
Specific Beat: Requires you to move to one side, dependant on which side has a free spot. Bullets spawned by this hitobject are placed in the neutral position AND in one of the two directions you can dodge in, limiting you to only one of the two sides. The secondary bullet would be highlighted in some way, probably by being a bit bigger or brighter. This could probably be mapped to one of the hitsounds, or certain movement patterns in osu.
Hold Notes: The laser. The entity starts glowing or shining (as if it was charging), then it makes a thin line that goes over the neutral position a few beats before it arrives. You can pass through it as it has not arrived yet. Expands to a bigger line once it arrives. Requires the player to hold the left or right button until it is done. Multiple lasers can be read by looking at the charge animation. Counting how many of them happen and when they happen should give you a good sense on when they appear. This can be combined with specific beats, with multiple thin lines hinting on which sides to avoid.
Don't know what to do for spinners. We could make them press the up arrow to the beat or something to do a little taunt or dance, but I'm not sure.
This should be good enough for now. If you can't visualize it, I'll draw (MS Paint or lazy photoshop) a draft of the circle thing. Just visualize the osu! logo on the title screen, where the circles it pulses out to the beat have little circles stuck to them. Now imagine dodging them like in the video.
ops
I agree with the limiting of the movements, but limiting it to only 3 positions is too much, mainly because if you think about danmaku, you think about few spots on screen which are "safe" to be avoiding them, principally at the highest difficulty levels.Mithost wrote:
Yeah, this is actually a really good place to start. Instead of a classic touhou style where the bullets spawn to the beat, have it so the player must move to the beats. We could have different patterns for different movements, and if you let go of a key you go back to neutral position. This makes hold notes, normal beats, and possibly some other stuff possible. Let me vent some ideas out.
The source of bullets will be a circular entity. It will pulse to the beat, making a translucent circle that expands towards the player (probably at the designated approach rate from osu!standard maps). This would be like the barline on taiko or osu!mania. Any and all hit objects will be placed on these circles. If a hitobject is placed off of a beat, (eighth/sixteenth notes), a fainter circle will be put there to indicate that there is a hitobject there.
Player loses health when they get hit by a bullet, and they gain health when they successfully dodge one. Sudden Death will make one hit = kill, and the damage is calculated by the health drain difficulty setting.
The player has 3 main positions. Neutral, Left, and Right. Pressing a key down will make the character move in that direction, and letting a key go will put you back in neutral.
When you dodge a bullet, you get a "graze" bonus based on your timing.
Here are the potential differences in hitobjects.
Normal Beat: Moving from neutral position to one of two sides, to avoid a single bullet headed straight for you. You get extra points if you input the dodge at the right time. Holding the directional key to avoid multiple bullets will cause every other bullet to be scored as a 50 instead of a 300, and the player's health would not increase for it.
Specific Beat: Requires you to move to one side, dependant on which side has a free spot. Bullets spawned by this hitobject are placed in the neutral position AND in one of the two directions you can dodge in, limiting you to only one of the two sides. The secondary bullet would be highlighted in some way, probably by being a bit bigger or brighter. This could probably be mapped to one of the hitsounds, or certain movement patterns in osu.
Hold Notes: The laser. The entity starts glowing or shining (as if it was charging), then it makes a thin line that goes over the neutral position a few beats before it arrives. You can pass through it as it has not arrived yet. Expands to a bigger line once it arrives. Requires the player to hold the left or right button until it is done. Multiple lasers can be read by looking at the charge animation. Counting how many of them happen and when they happen should give you a good sense on when they appear. This can be combined with specific beats, with multiple thin lines hinting on which sides to avoid.
Don't know what to do for spinners. We could make them press the up arrow to the beat or something to do a little taunt or dance, but I'm not sure.
This should be good enough for now. If you can't visualize it, I'll draw (MS Paint or lazy photoshop) a draft of the circle thing. Just visualize the osu! logo on the title screen, where the circles it pulses out to the beat have little circles stuck to them. Now imagine dodging them like in the video.
Being able to free move at least for left/right (like in ctb) you could move to more dangerous spots and get more graze score; there would be a great variety of scores.
Also your "circular entity" could have infinites life bars (for it to last until the end of the song) so you could always earn extra points by killing it, the more you shoot it, the more score you get. It could also drop few 点 item at random position on screen when you finish with one of its lifebar, as well as removing all of the enemy's bullets when this happens, earning good amount of point for each bullet onscreen, just like in Touhou.
Though implementation of 300, 100, 50, etc would be hard in this case, unless counting 300 as each of your shots that hit the "circular entity", 100 as bullets grazed, and counting point items '点' instead of 50.
Of course there should be the "misses" which happen each time you get hit, but what about having "lives" earned each X points?
Missing should imply score penalty; it could be instant penalty or calculated at the final score, depending on the amount of lost lives.
Losing all of them would result in a fail.
Could work this way:
Hit by bullet → miss sound + score penalty → player respawn while bullets onscreen are cleared with no score bonus → continue as if nothing has happened.
We should not forget about the life-saving BOMBS, which the player could have 2 each life.
Bombing would clear bullets on screen and remove current boss' life bar bonus. (Yes, penalties for bombing as well)
There could be a 5ms time before actually dying in which one could bomb (consuming 2 bombs) to prevent from losing a life and giving some score for bullets onscreen. (Still removing the boss' lifebar bonus)
Life penalty would be greater than bomb penalty.
Now the objects:
Circle: Would be a simple multi-direction shoot, with pattern and kind of bullets based on the hitsound, OD and CS.
Sliders: Multiple 1/4 or 1/8 based bullets shoot directly at the player as it moves with other circle-like bullets being shoot at slider ticks with heavier waves on the slider Start and End.
Repeating Sliders: A non straight slider bullet wave, spread by the lengh of the slider.
As for spinners: a HEAVY amount of bullet for you to graze. (from simple to complex patterns, depending on OD)
HP drain = Amount of lives, the higher the less. Drain 10 = 0 Lives (Still earns lives by score)
Circle Size = Average AMOUNT of bullets. (Bullets should have fixed size and be greater in amount rather than sizes)
Approach Rate = Average Speed of bullets (combined with slider velocity could have greater variety)
OD = Overall difficulty. The higher, the more bulles, heavier spinners, more score. Could also define amount of bombs per life. OD 10 = 0 Bombs
The boss-like thing can move left/right as well.
And to finish, give the player a small hitbox with possibility of focusing.
Example:
(Alternatively "Boss Kill" count could be just a number on the left of its lifebar)
Of course this is all suggestion, its not me that will be the one to code if such game mode gets to be implemented.
Edit: Forgot to mention, bonuses for each life/bomb remaining go to the final score.
These are two different options. One has the bullets spawning to the beat, and the other has the player dodging to the beat. My idea that I posted above was an attempt to make a rhythm game based on a danmaku game, not a danmaku game based off of a rhythm game. Sure this limits some stuff, but in my opinion, a danmaku game probably wont translate over perfectly if we leave everything intact.
On the topic of grazing, risky movements, and safezones, that is what we would be emulating with the different patterns. I could see someone being forced to move to the right and while they are there, a laser will start charging on their spot, making it a narrow escape.
Shooting something for points is something I REALLY want to avoid here. Why? You get more points for standing still, than you do for moving along to the song. Osu! is a Rhythm game, and we need to remember this. Making score based on dodging to the beat and actually reading rhythmic patterns seems like a better, more simple system for a rhythm game.
Another thing is the issue on balance. With your system, the danmaku part of the game will turn the music part of the game into background music from what I see. Players don't need to pay attention to the music (they might even be better off without it), and timing of pretty much everything is not even considered.
I agree though that we CAN give the players a bonus if they stay un-hit long enough (high enough combo) and get a bonus by beating a life off of the boss.
tl;dr: Bullets spawning to the beat like fireworks does not make a good RHYTHM BASED game (A rhythm game being a game that rewards good timing based on reacting visual and audio cues). It would make a really cool game, but not a very good game-mode for osu.
On the topic of grazing, risky movements, and safezones, that is what we would be emulating with the different patterns. I could see someone being forced to move to the right and while they are there, a laser will start charging on their spot, making it a narrow escape.
Shooting something for points is something I REALLY want to avoid here. Why? You get more points for standing still, than you do for moving along to the song. Osu! is a Rhythm game, and we need to remember this. Making score based on dodging to the beat and actually reading rhythmic patterns seems like a better, more simple system for a rhythm game.
Another thing is the issue on balance. With your system, the danmaku part of the game will turn the music part of the game into background music from what I see. Players don't need to pay attention to the music (they might even be better off without it), and timing of pretty much everything is not even considered.
I agree though that we CAN give the players a bonus if they stay un-hit long enough (high enough combo) and get a bonus by beating a life off of the boss.
tl;dr: Bullets spawning to the beat like fireworks does not make a good RHYTHM BASED game (A rhythm game being a game that rewards good timing based on reacting visual and audio cues). It would make a really cool game, but not a very good game-mode for osu.
This is all I wanted to add to your thing. Everything else is just my random opinions.Mithost wrote:
I agree though that we CAN give the players a bonus if they stay un-hit long enough (high enough combo) and get a bonus by beating a life off of the boss.
Seems like interesting wall of text. I'll read the entire post tomorrow after a good sleep.Mithost wrote:
Don't know what to do for spinners. We could make them press the up arrow to the beat or something to do a little taunt or dance, but I'm not sure.
For time being, here's a quick take on possible spinner adaptation. I'll use my favourite Ran as example.
Fast farward to roughly 5:00. The prep for spinning laser starts, firing moments later. The character is forced to move with it. The guy in the video got pwned for not moving with it =.=
To do something similar in osu, the mapper can use different geometrical arrangements while always leaving safe spots at various distances from centre of rotation. From the scoring point of view, obviously the "spin rate" is controlled by the boss, not the player (ie constant angular velocity). However the player can choose to do easier spins by staying closer to the centre of rotation (ie lower linear velocity), or move in a safe spot further away from the centre of rotation to get score bonus (higher linear velocity, more distance to cover per rotation).
If that sounds confusing, just look at the video. If a player stays closer to the centre of the rotation, he/she can move rather "slowly" compared to someone who stays on the rim of the spinning laser (if we focus on only the laser and ignore all other bullets temporarily). Obviously it's harder to control when you have to move faster so the player should get score bonus for it. Of course, the mapper will have to balance the danmaku so that the "safe spot" during spinning laser should be the same size no matter how far it's placed from centre of rotation to justify for the bonus given.
It's a cool pattern, but I don't think it would match well with 1) How spinners usually fit in songs 2) My idea on how the game would work and 3) How spinners work score wise in osu!standard
Here is the original Remilia mini-game (Just FYI):
(The game consist of 10-ish mini-games then a remix, just like rhythm tengolku)
Remember that there is only 2 buttons active in that game. One for "hit-circle" and one for "slider".
I think your idea would work well, but to me it sound like taking away the fun. It sounds like to make a touhou-themed rhythm game rather than to make a rhythm game based on a danmaku game. I think the danmaku is mostly what we are looking for here. And as I said earlier, there is not really a way to generate danmaku.
(The game consist of 10-ish mini-games then a remix, just like rhythm tengolku)
Remember that there is only 2 buttons active in that game. One for "hit-circle" and one for "slider".
Spinners are ignored in mania too.Mithost wrote:
It's a cool pattern, but I don't think it would match well with 1) How spinners usually fit in songs 2) My idea on how the game would work and 3) How spinners work score wise in osu!standard
Some FYI information: In rhythm tengoku, it's basic that you MUST match the beat, so sometimes it's easier to listen to the cue rather than looking. That's what they did in rhythm carnival scarlet too. Everything has a cue(mostly). BTW the remilia beat game, it only takes 2 keys, one for normal beat and one for hold.Mithost wrote:
......The source of bullets will be a circular entity. It will pulse to the beat, making a translucent circle that expands towards the player (probably at the designated approach rate from osu!standard maps). This would be like the barline on taiko or osu!mania. Any and all hit objects will be placed on these circles. If a hitobject is placed off of a beat, (eighth/sixteenth notes), a fainter circle will be put there to indicate that there is a hitobject there......
I think your idea would work well, but to me it sound like taking away the fun. It sounds like to make a touhou-themed rhythm game rather than to make a rhythm game based on a danmaku game. I think the danmaku is mostly what we are looking for here. And as I said earlier, there is not really a way to generate danmaku.
Each person should feel free to propose their ideas, cause I think peppy will do things his way at the end of the day so there's no need for us to "finalise" our discussions. Our discussions here only serves as peppy's inspiration so feel free to organise your ideas and post them here.
So here's my take on how Touhosu can be implemented. It's going to be a long post so I'll try to use as many pictures as possible to make it easier to read. Bear with me
NOTE: This post is unfinished.
I saw the video Sakuya uploaded when I was half way through putting my ideas together. The game mechanism shown in that video is very clean and simple and it made me wonder if the stuff I'm proposing here is too complicated to code. I guess I'll leave this post as is unless people think it's worth digging deeper.
So here's my take on how Touhosu can be implemented. It's going to be a long post so I'll try to use as many pictures as possible to make it easier to read. Bear with me
Basic Gameplay Concept
BASIC GAMEPLAY CONCEPT
Similar to TH9.5 "Shoot the Bullet," the player will not be firing any of her danmaku at the boss. The focus of the game will be dodging bullets and get high scores. Yes, that means NO BOMBS.
Health/HP Bar
Player starts with full health. There is a constant HP drain as soon as the map section starts, ie if a player sits there and do nothing he/she will die (fail).
Each hit objects (explained later) cleared will give the player some health back. To pass a map the player must constantly clear hit objects throughout the map.
Another way to lose HP is to get hit by the bullet. A "hit" is only registered when the "hit box" touches a bullet (refer to the picture below).
Hit Objects
The basic building block in this idea is an invisible string connecting 2 adjacent bullets together.
A Hit Object is cleared when the player passes through the gap between 2 bullets (break the string). Once cleared, a hit object cannot be activated again.
Player Control
Similar to TH9.5 "Shoot the Bullet," the player will not be firing any of her danmaku at the boss. The focus of the game will be dodging bullets and get high scores. Yes, that means NO BOMBS.
Health/HP Bar
Player starts with full health. There is a constant HP drain as soon as the map section starts, ie if a player sits there and do nothing he/she will die (fail).
Each hit objects (explained later) cleared will give the player some health back. To pass a map the player must constantly clear hit objects throughout the map.
Another way to lose HP is to get hit by the bullet. A "hit" is only registered when the "hit box" touches a bullet (refer to the picture below).
Hit Objects
The basic building block in this idea is an invisible string connecting 2 adjacent bullets together.
A Hit Object is cleared when the player passes through the gap between 2 bullets (break the string). Once cleared, a hit object cannot be activated again.
Player Control
- Mouse/tablet movement to navigate Player position
- Up/Down/Left/Right Arrow (remap-able) "blinks" Player towards that direction (at fixed pixel distance) and cuts the string in its path
- Once the button is released, the player "blinks" back to the cursor location prior to the button press
Mapping & Design
MAPPING & DESIGN
Mapping
Basic map mapping should be exactly the same as osu standard, so that an existing osu standard map can be "translated" and played without extra tweak.
Additional "annoyance" objects (eg laser, ootama) can either be scripted for existing maps, or added by mappers for new submissions. The purpose of these additional annoyances are to discourage Player camping at the same spot.
The distance between 2 bullets (or "string length" as referred to from here on) is directly proportional to the length of a note. It'll be easier to visualise by the following figure.
Map Difficulty Settings
HP Drain Rate = same definition as osu standard
Circle Size = Size of bullets (larger bullets reduce the "string length")
Approach Rate = Speed of bullets
Overall Difficulty = same definition as osu standard
Mapping
Basic map mapping should be exactly the same as osu standard, so that an existing osu standard map can be "translated" and played without extra tweak.
Additional "annoyance" objects (eg laser, ootama) can either be scripted for existing maps, or added by mappers for new submissions. The purpose of these additional annoyances are to discourage Player camping at the same spot.
The distance between 2 bullets (or "string length" as referred to from here on) is directly proportional to the length of a note. It'll be easier to visualise by the following figure.
Map Difficulty Settings
HP Drain Rate = same definition as osu standard
Circle Size = Size of bullets (larger bullets reduce the "string length")
Approach Rate = Speed of bullets
Overall Difficulty = same definition as osu standard
Spinners
If there's spinner in Touhosu at all, I can think of 2 ways to do this:
- Fast rotating laser (constant rate). Player moves with the cone to stay safe. Player gains more bonus point by staying further away from the centre of rotation.
- Random stationary Danmaku filling the screen. Player's Grace circle activates. Free hand movement, grace for bonus points (you can still get hit and lose HP)
NOTE: This post is unfinished.
I saw the video Sakuya uploaded when I was half way through putting my ideas together. The game mechanism shown in that video is very clean and simple and it made me wonder if the stuff I'm proposing here is too complicated to code. I guess I'll leave this post as is unless people think it's worth digging deeper.
My idea favored simplicity and rhythm based movements to the common "Bullets spawn to the beat" thing. Both are decent, and none of our ideas are set in stone. Fixing my idea would be great, but I'll also provide ideas for the normal danmaku game.
My main theory behind this is that this game mode needs to be a rhythm game first. I am all for adding as many danmaku elements as we can, but there really should be some input on the character that is rhythm based. I like the string idea with the paired bullets, but it lacks the insensitive to move much if you are playing for fun instead of for score. Another thing we would be missing with the idea is accuracy. How do we register what bullets count towards score, and which ones are not? We can't have 3000x Miss and 1% accuracy for every song.
With my idea, I thought of a slightly different movement plan. The character is still on a fixed plane, but this time it is a horizontal line or curve, which the player can travel along freely. When you tap a directional key, you move over one space. The same bullet patterns are waiting for you when you move over, but the immediate bullet in your way is deactivated if your timing was correct. It's the same game idea as before, but instead of being snapped back to the neutral area, your current location becomes the new neutral. I would imagine that you could pull a pac-man and move from one side of the stage to the other by moving too far one way.
This idea also brings back the potential boss idea. The entity moves around the top part of the stage, and the player gets bonus points (spinner bonus amount, not TOO much) for being in the position to deal damage to it. The closer you are to it, the more of your bullets hit it, and the more points you get for it.
The fixed sections that you can move in are there so people cannot camp. The game knows where to aim so you will always be moving because there is less variables. The screen is filled with bullets that you dodge, but your inputs are based on the music playing. I don't want to have vertical movement because that will alter the timing of which you need to dodge the bullets too much.
Now that I think about this, this is one of the hardest game genres to transform into a rhythm game.
Edit: I now have a visualization of how my idea would work.
My main theory behind this is that this game mode needs to be a rhythm game first. I am all for adding as many danmaku elements as we can, but there really should be some input on the character that is rhythm based. I like the string idea with the paired bullets, but it lacks the insensitive to move much if you are playing for fun instead of for score. Another thing we would be missing with the idea is accuracy. How do we register what bullets count towards score, and which ones are not? We can't have 3000x Miss and 1% accuracy for every song.
With my idea, I thought of a slightly different movement plan. The character is still on a fixed plane, but this time it is a horizontal line or curve, which the player can travel along freely. When you tap a directional key, you move over one space. The same bullet patterns are waiting for you when you move over, but the immediate bullet in your way is deactivated if your timing was correct. It's the same game idea as before, but instead of being snapped back to the neutral area, your current location becomes the new neutral. I would imagine that you could pull a pac-man and move from one side of the stage to the other by moving too far one way.
This idea also brings back the potential boss idea. The entity moves around the top part of the stage, and the player gets bonus points (spinner bonus amount, not TOO much) for being in the position to deal damage to it. The closer you are to it, the more of your bullets hit it, and the more points you get for it.
The fixed sections that you can move in are there so people cannot camp. The game knows where to aim so you will always be moving because there is less variables. The screen is filled with bullets that you dodge, but your inputs are based on the music playing. I don't want to have vertical movement because that will alter the timing of which you need to dodge the bullets too much.
Now that I think about this, this is one of the hardest game genres to transform into a rhythm game.
Edit: I now have a visualization of how my idea would work.
Now you two are missing the point of "danmaku" which is: multiple bullets of multiple types moving at multiple speeds with multiple patterns, AT THE SAME TIME.
The following is just my opinion, I'm not saying "your concept is bad, you should change this and that", just pointing some stuff out.
Mithost: you could achieve that having some other bullets moving diagonally a bit slower, with less space between them or faster and more spaced than the other bullets, but never being on the player's path on the time of the beat so he/she can dodge them while still focusing on the main bullets, for example.
Oinari-sama: mouse control is not good for bullet dodging, especially because of how the speed works for cursor (think about CtB with relax, please do so); constant movement speed = good.
Other thing is bullet size changing: it is not good in ANY way; you should focus on bullet ammount rather than size. Where have you seen a danmaku game with bullet size changing between difficulty levels ?????????? There should be a fixed set of bullets, each with their own sizes and be the same in all maps/diffs (maybe set bullet kind by hitsound/new combo/whatever). You could make use of bigger bullets more frequent, but not turn all bullets into big bullets.
And yeah, putting accuracy there is (almost?) impossible without killing the real point of danmaku.
The following is just my opinion, I'm not saying "your concept is bad, you should change this and that", just pointing some stuff out.
Mithost: you could achieve that having some other bullets moving diagonally a bit slower, with less space between them or faster and more spaced than the other bullets, but never being on the player's path on the time of the beat so he/she can dodge them while still focusing on the main bullets, for example.
Oinari-sama: mouse control is not good for bullet dodging, especially because of how the speed works for cursor (think about CtB with relax, please do so); constant movement speed = good.
Other thing is bullet size changing: it is not good in ANY way; you should focus on bullet ammount rather than size. Where have you seen a danmaku game with bullet size changing between difficulty levels ?????????? There should be a fixed set of bullets, each with their own sizes and be the same in all maps/diffs (maybe set bullet kind by hitsound/new combo/whatever). You could make use of bigger bullets more frequent, but not turn all bullets into big bullets.
And yeah, putting accuracy there is (almost?) impossible without killing the real point of danmaku.
I agree with this, everyone who have supported this should have their own image of how this could work.Oinari-sama wrote:
Each person should feel free to propose their ideas
can't we just base it on beathazard, but call it touhosu!? (although mapping it would be impossible :<)
That game has very weak gameplay, avoiding bullets is easy, the bullets on the hardest level are less frequent than touhou on easy - it's all just visual effects and enemies to shoot (I don't see music being applied to gameplay in any way there).JeMhUnTeR wrote:
can't we just base it on beathazard, but call it touhosu!? (although mapping it would be impossible :<)
Not to be mean here, but I think you are missing the point of "rhythm game", which is doing something to the beat of the music. One thing that a lot of people here are missing is that we can't have a game that is danmaku where the bullets are simply spawned on beats. Sure, it would make a nice game (see beat hazard, the touhou modded levels, etc), but it can't be an osu! game mode. It lacks too many things that make a rhythm game a rhythm game. Things like Accuracy, Combos, and actually paying attention to the beat are crucial to any gamemode that will ever go in osu!. I don't want to speak for peppy here, but I honestly think that peppy won't even lift a finger towards making this game mode if it doesn't include the fundamentals of rhythm games.JhowM wrote:
Now you two are missing the point of "danmaku" which is: multiple bullets of multiple types moving at multiple speeds with multiple patterns, AT THE SAME TIME.
My idea for a rhythm game combines both games in a 50/50 split, where both games have equal representation, and the game feels like both games. Let me explain. Danmaku games are about dodging bullets and staying alive. Rhythm games are about performing actions to the music that is playing. My idea is about dodging bullets to the music. You still dodge bullets, and you still move to the rhythm. 50/50 split.
One thing that was not shown in the picture was other note types. The main point of them will be to limit certain movement lanes and make it so you have to find safe zones (sound familiar?) without being able to camp. Certain bullets will force you to move right instead of left or vice versa, and the lasers would temporarily limit the ability to access the lane you were in when it started charging. Accuracy will also emulate a sort of "graze" system, where if you do a note perfectly, you would get an extra bonus (kind of like the rainbow 300's in osumania being worth 320 base points instead of 300). On top of that, I was thinking of adding a "deathbombing" system, where you could prevent one combo break (receiving a 100 or 50 instead of a miss) by using a one-per-song bomb attack. The bomb could also be useful for clearing out a few beats worth of bullets if you need time to think. This is the touhou part of everything. The only thing missing is vertical movement and a "focus" feature.
Your system is fine; the only thing I'm afraid is lack of challenge so it doesn't end up getting boring.
Alright. Let's talk about difficulty. The first thing I would like to note is that bullets would generally land on the player at the same time a hitcircle would be clicked, and each hitcircle would equal one bullet to dodge. This is pretty good until we get into streams, where it would become TOO hard to read patterns while constantly moving every 16th note. If we can translate streams (but not short 3-5 note long streams) into another kind of bullet or pattern that gives a similar feel to it without being too difficult, we will be in good shape. Any suggestions are welcome on how we can do that are welcome, because I'm a bit stumped. I guess we could make it so it's just a steady stream of bullets that follows you with it changing direction every quarter or eighth note. Ideas are welcome.
I don't see how it would be dead-easy in harder translations. We bring up the approach rate and the more complex rhythms and bullet patterns that come with hard and insane maps will scale the difficulty themselves. Normal and Easy Difficulties will be easy, sure. We just limit some certain bullets from easy and we introduce them in normals if they get out of hand.
I don't see how it would be dead-easy in harder translations. We bring up the approach rate and the more complex rhythms and bullet patterns that come with hard and insane maps will scale the difficulty themselves. Normal and Easy Difficulties will be easy, sure. We just limit some certain bullets from easy and we introduce them in normals if they get out of hand.
About implementing this like what they did in Touhou Rhythm Carnival...
I have played this game, and my least favourite mini-game was VS. Remilia.
It was awkward to play. And it didn't feel like Touhou. It felt like a more advanced version of Taiko or CtB, I'm not sure.
I really liked idea where bullets pop up in beat with the music. That way you have a music-oriented bullet hell game! Feels more like what it should be.
But then again. This is an opinion on the internet! I doubt anyone would care too much!
I have played this game, and my least favourite mini-game was VS. Remilia.
It was awkward to play. And it didn't feel like Touhou. It felt like a more advanced version of Taiko or CtB, I'm not sure.
I really liked idea where bullets pop up in beat with the music. That way you have a music-oriented bullet hell game! Feels more like what it should be.
But then again. This is an opinion on the internet! I doubt anyone would care too much!