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Rank harder maps

posted
Total Posts
149

Should ET maps (like Thanatos, Little Hearts, unlimited spark) be allowed for ranking?

Yes
270
92.15%
No
23
7.85%
Total votes: 293
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kuuderes_shadow
132 posts
Joined May 2013
kuuderes_shadow
Just a thought - for songs with strong vibrato, is it rankable to treat each change in pitch as a different note and thus map it separately?

Because if it were rankable then that would greatly increase the number of songs for which super-insane maps can be made - and it is fitting the music to do that, after all.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
There is no correct way to map. You map depending on your understanding of the music, it's a representation of what you hear and interpret it.
And there is no RC restricting o!m mapping, apart from the jackhammers rule.
HanzeR
921 posts
Joined May 2012
HanzeR
The only thing holding most of these maps from being ranked is the lack of a proper difficulty spread.

Difficulty alone should never be a factor in ranking maps that otherwise meet all the ranking criteria
kuuderes_shadow
132 posts
Joined May 2013
kuuderes_shadow
Just make some easier difficulties then. Or get someone else to. Easier difficulties don't take so long to make as harder ones, after all.

Although in principle I do agree. If a mapset can be ranked which only contains super-easy difficulties, a mapset should be able to be ranked with only super-hard ones as well.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
General RC are prohibiting this and I don't see the issue with forcing mappers to have a well designed diffspread for both beginners and expert players if they want to get their maps ranked.
Rumia-
2,513 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-

PyaKura wrote:

General RC are prohibiting this and I don't see the issue with forcing mappers to have a well designed diffspread for both beginners and expert players if they want to get their maps ranked.
quit ranking world
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
o2mania / o2jam player here.

gotta agree that many ranked maps strictly for o!m only are quite meh. it feels like I'm only playing to get those 300s. Quite unchallenging to be honest.

while I do die on most songs that are level 34 in o2mania like Identity 2 or EarthQuake, I only die to those because of jackhammer patterns which is a pain like fuck. Personally I'd like Gaussian Blur 2 normal (level 27) to be ranked because 217 bpm.

meanwhile Taiko players are only getting Bs and Cs in most of their top 50. Now THAT'S challenging! Maybe I should switch to Taiko? But then again Taiko is a completely different *game*.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
You know, the wrong thing you're doing is not to involve any o!m BAT (and BAT with o!m knownledge) here in this discussion. I respect the opinion here why you want that so urgent and I understand that it really feels boring to play a game without real challenges (I cannot judge this). But; you have to talk with the BAT too. I am sure some of you already have talked with some BAT member via PM but please let them know about this discussion here.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Stefan wrote:

You know, the wrong thing you're doing is not to involve any o!m BAT (and BAT with o!m knownledge) here in this discussion. I respect the opinion here why you want that so urgent and I understand that it really feels boring to play a game without real challenges (I cannot judge this). But; you have to talk with the BAT too. I am sure some of you already have talked with some BAT member via PM but please let them know about this discussion here.
... pretty sure they all know about this thread lol.

However, I think they've understood the message (for a little while I believe) and start to - although slowly - consider ranking harder charts. I was nicely surprised when I saw that Shi-Ra and Roxas didn't get (actually not at all) all worked up at the sight of my last map. So no, it's not yet a really really ET map but I'm confident with it being one of the hardest chart amongst the ranked ones if it were to be ranked, and the amount of jackhammers (most hated pattern by inexperienced players) should have made them jump out of the window... or so I thought.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I think the real problem is:

*I'm not physically drained.*

how tiring is your typical o!s map when played? there's a reason why there are breaks in the middle of the song. Many mania players don't need this. at. all. there's a reason why xi - freedom dive has all S in the mania top 50 while there are Bs (heck, Cs!!!) in std top 50 of the same song.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Pretty sure that stamina/players' physical abilities limiting o!m mapping has never been a thing. (Obviously not talking about a certain unranked marathon map featuring brackets and jacks only right huehuehuehue)
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
precisely what makes mania unchallenging.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Mh, no you're getting me wrong. What I mean is that I don't think mania maps are unrankable due to that. So, sure, it's not as crazy as others' games ET maps, but look at the amount of jackhammers my map contains. Nobody's complaining and I think it still has too many jacks, but looks like it's fine. This is not the issue.

As I said I'm getting the feeling that we will be able to rank harder maps over time. And experienced mappers should put the effort in making a SHD diff whenever possible (please stop with all that SHD non-sense stuff on calm songs, it's really unfitting, it ends up being overmapped and is not fun to play) to please actual ET players, just like I do from now on.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
well, we have to draw the line somewhere. I mean, what's normal from insane from easy etc etc...

I still think the main factor to give attention to is how draining (physically) the song is. generally, the harder the song, the tiring it gets. second being how hard to read the pattern is. right now most mania-specific maps are very easy to S, and the autoconverts are so out of place I really regret playing them.
Drace
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace
I'm sorry but stamina is far from being a prominent factor to difficulty (compared to other factors) when it comes to the difficulty of higher level maps. You got the wrong idea as to what constitute to difficulty.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I'm also sorry but if you've played my examples from my above post (EarthQuake, Identity 2, Gaussian Blur 2) I'm pretty sure you'll hold a different opinion. Just because this is osu doesn't mean that's how it is.
Drace
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace
Stamina and physical abilities isn't the big reason why those charts are hard, and Identity jackhammer's aren't physically "draining" since it's just one burst. It requires physical skill, aka speed, not stamina. Someone who's never played rhythm games but can tap keys in rapid succession will survive those jackhammers, despite not even having the ability to make it there.

Most the time if you don't have the stamina for chart, the chart is either ridiculously long or you don't have the reading abilities or skills to play those patterns correctly anyways. By the time you reach the level to play the patterns those charts feature correctly, you'll realize that stamina wasn't the hardest thing about those maps. And if they did require, you're stamina would be good enough by then too. There's only very few stamina charts, meaning charts that the main reason why they're hard is their high stamina requirement. And those are far from hardest kind of maps the world has to offer.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
but then again Identity 2 features constant high note counts which drains your stamina slowly. then that burst attack comes which means you lost your stamina by lots. it'll be impossible to recover unless it'll feature a "rest time" (low key count) at some part of the song (it doesn't iirc).

That said, burst attacks > constant high note count when it comes to difficulty. one reason being there's rhythm in constant high note count (hint: constant) compared to bursts. then again this is just apples versus oranges talking. the real question still stands:

we have to draw the line somewhere.
Drace
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace
If you find identity II physically draining, you gotta work on your ergonomics, waaaay too much useless energy spent somewhere. It's not physically draining at all ;/.

like

at all
Last edited by Drace , edited 1 time in total.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
This ^

If anything it wakes me up, not the other way around. And I'm FAAAAAR from being good enough at mania to pretend passing this chart without difficulty.
Entozer
297 posts
Joined February 2010
Entozer
If you are looking for a ranked "physically draining" map, maybe Gigantic OTN [Entozer's Another] is the thing you are looking for, if you haven't played it yet. I am excluding IN2006 of course, because of the songs that you listed, you probably cannot play it.

If we to talk about "you are not physically drained", then that will be very subjective. In fact, the whole physically draining thing is too subjective. I think, maybe the better term you are looking for is "physically straining", and go on from that idea?

From the maps that Xcrypt listed, those three are mine and I am willing to go through the modding process for it to be ranked. Technically, they all follow the ranking criteria, but then the only thing that faithfully follows the instrument is Kakuzetsu Thanatos [SHD]. Little star has some extended Long note trickery, while unlimited spark has this long note that I am very sure will make people go "nop", so I think only kakuzetsu has the best chance for ranking. Then again, I uploaded a [New World] diff, which breaks a rule from the RC.

The most possible "ET" map that could be ranked from me right now would be Nou Shou Sakuretsu Girl, second being Catastrophe. Too bad I'm too lazy to hitsound those.

TL;DR: Help me with my map's hitsound and mod my maps please. Let's push it to rankings.
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94

Entozer wrote:

If you are looking for a ranked "physically draining" map, maybe Gigantic OTN [Entozer's Another] is the thing you are looking for, if you haven't played it yet. I am excluding IN2006 of course, because of the songs that you listed, you probably cannot play it.

If we to talk about "you are not physically drained", then that will be very subjective. In fact, the whole physically draining thing is too subjective. I think, maybe the better term you are looking for is "physically straining", and go on from that idea?

From the maps that Xcrypt listed, those three are mine and I am willing to go through the modding process for it to be ranked. Technically, they all follow the ranking criteria, but then the only thing that faithfully follows the instrument is Kakuzetsu Thanatos [SHD]. Little star has some extended Long note trickery, while unlimited spark has this long note that I am very sure will make people go "nop", so I think only kakuzetsu has the best chance for ranking. Then again, I uploaded a [New World] diff, which breaks a rule from the RC.

The most possible "ET" map that could be ranked from me right now would be Nou Shou Sakuretsu Girl, second being Catastrophe. Too bad I'm too lazy to hitsound those.

TL;DR: Help me with my map's hitsound and mod my maps please. Let's push it to rankings.
I'll help whenever I can, ento :')
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Let's all put our effort in making Ento's maps ranked \o/

also lol'd at your sig ishi
moni
233 posts
Joined July 2012
moni
support enzo for mania ET map :3 :D :D :D :D
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

PyaKura wrote:

also lol'd at your sig ishi
*Takes a look at your avatar*
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
My ava was the original thing though.
ArcherLove
1,434 posts
Joined March 2013
ArcherLove
#rankhardermaps ok
Lokovodo
463 posts
Joined December 2012
Lokovodo

PyaKura wrote:

Let's all put our effort in making Ento's maps ranked \o/

also lol'd at your sig ishi
EVERYONE MOD ENTO'S MAPS GOGOGOGOGO
ArcherLove
1,434 posts
Joined March 2013
ArcherLove

Lokovodo wrote:

EVERYONE MOD ENTO'S MAPS GOGOGOGOGO
inb4 our mod is not needed because his map too ET!!!
NaxelCL
NaxelCL
i'm ranked harder beatmaps this year<3
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
We never discouraged lolhard maps, if the created difficulty is provided by the song you are mapping. This means that you are free to create ridiculous difficult maps, if their mapping can be reasoned in the song. We discourage overmapping, as in making the chart having more notes than the song actually provides to be mapped.
Just pick the right song and feel free to squeeze as much difficult stuff out of it, as long as the song provides it.

It has always been easier to rank boring animuuuu ugugu maps, but they are boring, because the songs are already boring. But they are easier mapped and ranked faster (easier to mod, less complicated)

But please consider that all sets need a proper spread. If you have lolhard difficulties, the other diffs must provide a decent spread to let all players of mania being able to enjoy your set, regardless of how good they are.

Easy maps can be played by everyone. Hard ones can't. That's why the spread is needed.

Whenever you want to have a revision on a readymade really hard chart set, that is reasonably mapped based on the song (read as: still hell hard but not stupidly over mapped), then we/especially me are up to help you getting in ranked.

I don't know who spread the idea that too hard maps can't be ranked. This is wrong.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Charles445
I'm looking forward to operation EnTozer personally
ArcherLove
1,434 posts
Joined March 2013
ArcherLove
well .... maaan~ These days many japanese cartoon's songs get ranked =w= ~
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Rank more instrumental/electronical stuff seriously like BMS artists songs, they have a lot more potential mapping-wise. >.>
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
If you want them ranked, you should map them?
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I was indirectly speaking to other "popular" mappers. I'm currently working on one of these song (and I'm almost done with it, only hitsounds are left but I -still- don't know how to deal with them correctly...). ._.
Actually very few mappers rank interesting stuff regularly (Spy's SDVX songs, Ento, Liese, luyuja, well actually Ento still maps jap stuff but his mapping style makes it so his maps aren't boring in the slightest).
Last edited by PyaKura , edited 1 time in total.
ArcherLove
1,434 posts
Joined March 2013
ArcherLove
yep currently working on those maps .. but ... not enough experience ...
Maiz94
1,376 posts
Joined June 2010
Maiz94

ArcherLove wrote:

yep currently working on those maps .. but ... not enough experience ...
Start learning and review ranked map one by one then. :D
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
new sig says it all
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
o!m mappers, stop mapping anime stuff, start mapping electronical/instrumental music.
personally I don't mind anime stuff as long as they do their relevant difficulty. That said, I can't pass Ento's Gigantic O.T.N. But I don't want to start dieting. What a dilemma.

Also, classical music needs more love.
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