Before you vote, assume that there are no system limitations and somehow there's a perfect system where everybody can submit any play they like and all the plays are saved and used for scoring. In this case, do you want players to be able to receive ranking points from DT plays, or should DT plays be unranked?

Re-voting is allowed. Please discuss in this thread and explain your opinions. It would be nice if we reach a community-decided solution by convincing each other and reaching a final choice by all.

Note: This poll is not about the implementation or the aspect of "HOW" will players be allowed to submit DT plays. For the sake of this poll, assume you're allowed to submit both a nomod and a DT play per chart.

I'm not going to vote, because I don't fall in either category, my opinion would be taken as too shallow. Instead, I'll put here what I put on the pp thread.

Some player can't play a slower chart in their style. They'll speed up neither the SV nor the chart speed. So, IMO it's okay if DT ranked.
Or, split up DT rank with no mod rank, as Xcrypt said.

The community has been spoiled to the point where they believe autoconverts are better than osu!mania-specific maps. Let's not spoil them further by telling them "Hey, did you know that you can boost your rank up by speeding up the song and playing the map without caring about rhythm at all?"

If you want to be rewarded for your speed and skill, you're better off ranking harder maps.

Voting for unranked.

ZXCV wrote:

The community has been spoiled to the point where they believe autoconverts are better than osu!mania-specific maps. Let's not spoil them further by telling them "Hey, did you know that you can boost your rank up by speeding up the song and playing the map without caring about rhythm at all?"

If you want to be rewarded for your speed and skill, you're better off ranking harder maps.

Voting for unranked.

How does using DT makes it so you don't have to care about the rhythm at all? DT doesn't reduce the timing windows proportionately with the map speed increase like in Taiko and Standard?
Being off by 20ms in a note in a map with DT is equivalent to being off by 30ms without DT, so you have to play even more accurately to the rhythm with DT.

Edit: after testing, it seems that DT doesn't decrease the time windows after all for some reason.

Aqo wrote:

Note: This poll is not about the implementation or the aspect of "HOW" will players be allowed to submit DT plays. For the sake of this poll, assume you're allowed to submit both a nomod and a DT play per chart.

I wonder if people voting in this poll read this part of the OP.

Full Tablet wrote:

How does using DT makes it so you don't have to care about the rhythm at all? DT doesn't reduce the timing windows proportionately with the map speed increase like in Taiko and Standard?

Being off by 20ms in a note in a map with DT is equivalent to being off by 30ms without DT, so you have to play even more accurately to the rhythm with DT.

If the timing windows are not reduced by DT in osu!mania, wouldn't you be equally penalized for being 20ms off in both DT and nomod? I think I misread your post. Ignore this part.

Besides, I meant more along the lines of having the song sped up to the point where you lose respect for the original song and tempo, and focus only on visual aspects of gameplay. Even with "only" a 50% increase in speed, sounds such as vocals would be spitting syllables faster than you can comprehend it. What I'm saying is, if I had to choosen between a 120BPM DT and 180BPM nomod, I would choose the 180BPM because I prefer to stay true to the original rhythm of the song, rather than having it sped up for some measly ranks.

DT does not affect your timing in mania like it does in other modes. Look at the timing bar, it gets bigger when you use DT.
Voted for unranked, because the entire point of mania is that individual difficulty rankings are accuracy-based.

I'd preffer DT to be unranked. The point of mania is how accurately you can play the song in a map, and increasing the speed to a point where the song sounds like a car crash then award them with more pp just doesn't fit with that in my opinion.

Having ranked DT plays may sound good in auto converts, but c'mon, mania specific maps are where it's at. Those things are hard enough as they are.

imo, DT in Standard is much way different than DT in mania in terms of keys used and accuracy. Voted for unranked hoping such mod would prevent in near future.

Ranking DT is fine, as it already is. Giving more pp is stupid though, unless new calculations/algorithms are made to balance the pp gain between DT and nomod plays. Sounds like too much work for pretty much nothing. If the point of this poll is to give a way for pro players to get more pp, I think the issue is about the maps' difficulties being too easy. As someone said, ranking harder stuff should be the way to go. Ranking DT and making it give more pp is a really cheap solution.

I agree with PyaKura here. I think it's a shame we can't get one of the more optimal solutions like xcrypt mentioned, but failing that, DT should still at least be ranked. Even if you don't get more PP, seeing a DT score on something tells you that whoever got that score is way better than the nomod players with similar scores.

Yes - and it should give PP, provided that:

The map that was played with DT was originally designed and ranked as an o!m map. Converts in my opinion should not award PP whether it's nomod or DT. They were made specifically for osu!standard and ranked based on osu!standard mapping criteria. This does not mean it should be automatically ranked when converted to another mode.

If the map was ranked for osu!mania and played with DT, it should be in the scoreboards. It should award more PP than a similar score that was no-mod. I'm sure everyone knows that someone who had a DT S on Bangin' Burst 4k with a higher accuracy than most no-mod players was awarded no PP because of all the drama it caused. This person climbed to the top 10 in o!m rankings and everyone got extremely angry because it was just one score. But the point is simple: nobody has ever come close to a score like that and I don't see anyone coming close to it in the future. That score was so much better than any no-mod on the list and should be treated as such with a large PP gain. I agree that low accuracy DT scores should not trump high accuracy no-mods, but a 95% DT vs. a 99% no-mod can not be compared/classified as even. I think the algorithm may need to be tweaked so that someone doesn't magically make the top-10 with one DT score, but I wasn't upset seeing a large gain from a score that is truly mind-blowing. In fact, I'm far more upset that the person does not get credit even though they do something nobody else has done.

TL;DR - a score with the same accuracy on DT as it is on no-mod should be awarded more PP; you may need to tweak the algorithm for it. Only maps designed originally for o!m should count (no-mod or otherwise).

Should give more PP and in a different scoreboard, i mean, its doubling the NPS, what is wrong to be awarded for such?

Leo137 wrote:

Should give more PP and in a different scoreboard, i mean, its doubling the NPS, what is wrong to be awarded for such?

It's time and a half compared to the normal speed, despite the "double time" name.

Because DT forces a player to play a song at 150% speed, there are few circumstances where DT will prove to be advantageous. Even if an opportunity presents itself, you're going to have to increase your physical speed by leaps and bounds to consider maintaining similar scores as you would under normal speeds. My vote goes to ranked.

I do agree with DT handing out PP, but it most certainly should not be as large of a PP distribution as it was a bit earlier on, haha.

And how exactly do calculate the fair amount of pp to award for DT ?

I'm not fundamentally against the idea, I just have trouble figuring out how to make things fair.

In the case a player can do a good score on a song (say 900k+) but can't do too good with DT (say around 750k), I think it wouldn't be easy figuring out how to reward DT.

Also, if the player is required to do really well to have a pp bonus with DT, it would just be useful for the top top players who already have SS pretty much everything.

"IF" the difficulty algorithm is accurate, it's just a matter of treating the DT ver as an other map, rerunning it through the algorithm.

The 2 main issues with ranking DT with bonus PP arises with how mania currently is. The first being the people who has already gotten many good nomods score will find it impossible to take advantage of the bonuses DT offers. This can be fixed by by having mod-specific leaderboards.

The second is what DT actually does to song. If the mapper actually wanted their map to be played sped up, they would of edited an 1.5x ver. Like nightcore or something. With this is mind, it's much better to have the highest achievements in the game being simply really hard maps, without the help of mods. Otherwise it indirectly forces good players to play DT even if they don't like it. The end result being what we seen when DT did give extra pp, nearly every single room in multi being DT rooms. Horrible outcome imo. Though this can be fixed by allowing ET maps to be ranked.

Until the above issues are solved, I'll be against ranking DT with extra PP.

Yes, if truly ET level maps are ranked, there's no real need to have something like DT act as a way to separate the gods from the rest of the players. If DT counts for PP, it would essentially force all skilled players to play DT in order to maximize their PP gain per song in order to compete with other players at their skill level, whether they like DT or not.

Playing a song on DT is different than playing a map designed to be played at that same speed, because speed can drastically change how certain patterns feel to play.

IF DT is ranked, but does not give extra PP, there's no incentive to DT something, which means that anyone with a top 50 DT is there because they're a step above most players in skill, and because they wanted to play DT. It's a way to show off to some degree even if it doesn't give more PP. In fact, because there would be less incentive to DT anything, the players who are good enough to consistently get top 50 scores with DT will become noticed much faster than if DT gave extra PP because there would only be a fewer players willing to do that.

Mod specific leaderboards would be nice too. Anything that lets you see more specific statistics is a good thing in a game where there is so much data.

Scarhand: The issue regarding autoconverts has been discussed plenty of times before, and it's not likely to change any time soon. If it ever does happen I fully expect it to take years until peppy decides that we have enough maps that players don't need autoconverts for anything. And even then there'd be some sort of outcry from those poor misguided souls who believe autoconverts are better or at the very least equal to mania specific maps.