1. osu! forums
  2. Other
  3. General Discussion
show more
posted
What a nice view of a utopia you have.

There's more behind the process (you were once a BAT, you should know this) with being a BAT and finding new ones.
Although I agree, these opinions of yours are unreasonable. Return to the team and see how things work before you make these assumptions that a team of "100 BAT" will work.
posted
= drama

we really shouldn't need it anymore, actually - either the map gets qualified or doesn't, the "nuke" thing doesn't really justify anything anymore, an absence of bubble might just as well be a nuke because it means "changes are necessary".

500 BATs? Lol. Good one. Have fun managing such a number when a team of 50 is barely manageable by itself because hey guess what: mapping isn't black or white and especially today we're swimming in over 50 shades of gray.

Nowadays, if you want to get mods, you gotta work for them. Ask people, mod4mod, get popular, that kind of thing. It doesn't pop out of nowhere through the woodwork. It shouldn't.

Keep this in mind: the number of BATs in the team is inversely proportional to the productivity of the team. "oh hey look there's 500 of us that means we can slack off and surely someone will do the work" and it ends up just being a few people doing all the work and they get to pick what maps they like to mod. It's exactly what's happening right now and what's always been happening, honestly.
posted

Mr Color wrote:

500 BATs? Lol. Good one. Have fun managing such a number when a team of 50 is barely manageable by itself
not 500 BATs, 500 mods from BATs.
posted
'08 was FAR better regarding modding though, nobody can ever deny that who's from that period. I mean, I had peppy mod my map without even asking or anything. That quite clearly says enough. Now I have to suck 3 dicks, mod 10 maps, get 12 stars and then still it'll take me weeeeks of begging and asking to get a ranked map. It's silly. I was against the whole start priority system when it first got introduced and I still am against it. People don't mod to improve maps, they mod to get stars.

Oh that reminds me, I actually remember 'bumping' my own map threads so it would get on top of the list again making it more likely to get a mod. I joined osu! when the system was severly declining, though I have seen its good state. Of course it was with way less people in osu! > less maps > less modding. But you can improve that bit by simply adding more BATs. If there were 10 qualified BATs for each 100 users back then, then there should still be 10 qualified BATs for each 100 users now. Especially now where everybody seems to be modding it would be easier to find a qualified BAT.

And it's so easy to get more BATs. And if you ''don't trust'' these people with certain rights, just give them the right to mod maps/bubble maps/rank maps. There will be more than plenty of people willing to do this. Modding isn't hard. Modding is easy.



Also minyeob, good to see you again. Get back at making more sexy maps!
posted
haha find me people that are actually willing to mod a shitload of maps consistently for more than a month without either doing a bunch of shit mods or giving up

or without getting silenced every week :P

Anyways, back to the real story. . .

Don't we already have some shit like this planned? You know, the new modding system? The one where you're supposed to like be able to get a randomly assigned map and if three skilled enough people say it's good then it goes to like some place and then it sits there for a week and then like oh yay its ranked woohoo yay huehue.

But speaking in the context of the current modding system.

This is going to be jumbled as I think of points. Sorry about that :(

First, tell me 100 people that would be fit for BAT. These are people that have unbiased opinions of mapping, whom are dedicated to modding maps and have a high enough skill of modding to distinguish issues that many normal player modders cannot, and whom also have the leadership ability to act as a moderator. Hell, not even everyone in the BAT is fit to be a BAT, haha. And I'm not just trying to be some liberalistic "haha bats are the very stupid haha wow id do better hehe :-)), like, it's notable.

Secondly, 2007 mapping/modding is completely different than 2014. The emphasis of 2007 modding was very much "Is there any major gamebreaking problems, or big things that need to be changed." while in 2014, it's "Are there any small details that could be fixed" Having a shitload of BAT mods would be super fun, but most mods would be huge and end up wasting the time of BATs when they could be looking at maps that, instead of having a high star priority, have a high number of quality mods that ensure the map is top quality.

Thirdly, the biggest problem I have with this statement is that modding will be based off star priority. Yeah, cool, I get it, Star Priority is important, but then you'll run into a lot of maps that still need player modding (Mostly newer mappers), or maps that are star spammed to getting free BAT mods. Star Priority can be a somewhat accurate representation of the amount of viewers a mapper has had for his/her map, but not so much for the quality and qualifications for a BAT, whom in the 2014 modding criteria, acts as an approver and a final judgement.

Fourth, why does a nuke really matter? If a map is bad, why bother a BAT with it? Just let the player modders deal with it. If it still sucks after forever, they don't get a BAT mod. Like, yeah, the nuke was used a lot more in the past, but it's sort of a really pointless thing. Especially if you want to build a model of efficiency, it's silly to implement the nuke as something that should be used more often. It's also really against the sort of liberalistic ideals that are prevelant in modding, where it's like "everyone gets a mod everyone gets a chance everyone gets things ranked ;wwww;!!!!" when you have things that tell people their map sucks.

Fifth, something I've learned from modding as much as I have is that not everyone really has the motivation to care about their map. They'll just make a map because "Oh yeah it'll be cool to be a mapper", and then drop the map after getting a few mods (It mostly happens with mappers who need to apply a lot of changes to their map). Similar to point 4, it really hurts the efficiency to have a system where "everyone gets a BAT mod" when you have a LOT of people like this.

Sixth, why do bad quality maps deserve BAT mods? I know it sounds dickish, but you have to look at the function the BAT team has. If the BAT team functioned more like the MAT did (and when I mean did, I mean like, when it first started), then yeah, there should be an availibility of modders labeled as skilled enough to help you with your map. But the BAT team doesn't function like that, nor will it ever function like that in the current system. Instead, they are approvers. A final destination, if you will.

Think of it like this. In my child development class, we reviewed the concept of "Screens". This is a concept that people of high status have a number of people in which can filter out everyone who wants to see them, so only the most important are able to talk to them. That's sort of how the BAT works. All of the pending maps come in wanting to be seen by a BAT, they get screened out by the secretary, and the best move on. Then the assistant screens out some more, and the best goes through. it goes on for however long until the best get to see the head honcho, or BAT. This system works best mostly because BATs simply don't have enough time to deal with everything, and they need to get the best work done possible to fufill their job as an approver.

plus efficiency and yadda yadda yadda.

Congratulations. You unlocked the CDFA Soapbox. If I can speak for a bit.

A better modding system isn't so much by having more and more BATs, but by having a few things

1) Actually active BATs
2) More player modders to filter through maps and suggest maps to BATs
3) Direction onto what to mod and what not to mod for BATs

There's a good half of the BATs on the team usually that I know I can't ask for mods, because they won't mod anything, nor do they really have any intentions of doing it. Quanitity of BATS doesn't help when there's no quantity of mods. I'm not even talking about those who don't take requests, just those who mod like maybe once a month. Sure, there's a lot, but how many of them are actually taking the initiative to mod? I understand there's life to deal with, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices to make things works, and sometimes, you'll have to step down to deal with life, and then pick up when things get better.

Secondly, how many players actively mod? When I mean actively, I mean like, not just for a month while the subject of a queue is super cool, but like, consistently for months and years, at a high quality? I can count the number on my hands. A lot of player modders will only mod for a little bit, mod just for some kudosu so they can boost up their map, or they just bitch about modding in irc without ever actually modding. I've always found it silly how people can expect modders to jump on their maps, when they aren't even modding themselves. It's silly. That's why I stopped asking for mods on my maps, because I stopped modding. I find it completely wrong to expect people to do something for you and give you nothing in return. Nobody is required to look at your map, and a mod is an earned priviledge, not a right. You are not required to have a mod, you have to earn it. If mappers could spend more time modding, we'd have higher quality maps, which can be sent to BATs to look at, instead of just complaining that BATs aren't looking at my map that got about 2 mods from xxXxxPusieronSlayerxxXx and xHinata-Chan23222 and a shitload of kudosu stars. Player mods are just as important as BAT mods.

Thirdly, a pointing out of what BATs should mod is super important. I used a system like this with a few BATs, and I noticed a significant increase in the quality of maps that came out, just because I modded some maps and pointed it to the direction of a BAT.

I'm too lazy to write more, lol. There's a lot more points I wanna say but honestly I'm not gonna write a giant ass essay about this shit. Just remember that BATs aren't everything. This is coming from the guy who can barely get mods at all, if there's any accusation of bias. My 20 ranked maps have been paired with a shitload of graved maps and maps that I'm still trying to get ranked, getting maybe 1 player mod a month because that's all I can manage to get.

Im fucking baked.
posted
"nuke them all"

- person in power
posted

Mr Color wrote:

500 BATs? Lol. Good one.
Unlimited BAT Works...
posted
It's good to have BAT friends.


BTW you are arguing that mapper inflation is the cause of this whole issue, but you are saying that more people mapping is good for the osu community. Make up your mind. People making maps for osu! is either good or bad for the community.


I have faith that the team can handle the whole modding scene until I come back from my extended modding break. I will probably start modding again sometime in the spring.
posted

GladiOol wrote:

'08 was FAR better regarding modding though, nobody can ever deny that who's from that period. I mean, I had peppy mod my map without even asking or anything. That quite clearly says enough. Now I have to suck 3 dicks, mod 10 maps, get 12 stars and then still it'll take me weeeeks of begging and asking to get a ranked map. It's silly. I was against the whole start priority system when it first got introduced and I still am against it. People don't mod to improve maps, they mod to get stars.
I kinda agree with you on this when people mod with the wrong reasons, but nowadays with how much the game has expanded, it's virtually impossible to get a random mod. How do you get out of the gigantic mess of pending maps? You can't, you have to ask people to help you. It's more or less unavoidable at this point.
posted

minyeob wrote:

In order to achieve this there should be more more BAT at least 100 ACTIVE BATs.
lol good one, try to find 100 good modders (by good I mean who stand out of the crowd), including all three special modes, and who can mod consistently without being interrupted all the time by RL issues.
posted
Thank you guys.

I suggested radical utopia to get some opinions.
I modded as a BAT for 4 years(2009 - 2013), making around a thousand modding posts.
And I also have ranked maps. I did m4m, BAT-request, too.

I know recent modding system is no same with '07 '08

The problem is, mapper inflation speed overwhelms ranked map inflation speed.
I mean, new ranked map per day didn't go up.
So I said, "We need more BATs bla bla bla"
But some of you guys said "Actually we don't have much good active modders"

Yeap, it is true.
So how to solve this?
That's why there was MAT.
That's why we held online modding discussion past times.
But nowadays there is not BIG INNOVATION like this.
How to deal normal mapper's complain that will be happened in the future?

As you guys know, recruiting BATs solved this temporarily.
It is not that good idea but it helped increasing number of beatmaps.

"Ranking Beatmap System" is going to limit line slowly. At least normal users should discuss about modding system like the past times to find a solution.

Maybe it might be good to make improved chart System(ex: pp only for charted maps), making normal ranked beatmaps' importance lower by making
beatmap ranking process more simple. (It would make normal mapper's stress for making ranked beatmap ease, because only exprienced mapper's map can be registered to chart)

I hope normal users not to be crazy with making their beatmaps ranked.
Cause it should not be main purpose to map.

Current ranking system with small amount of BATs aggravates Normal Mapper's stress(Not getting BAT's mod)
Please try to feel sympathized for this. There are only 1000 users who has ranked beatmap despite of loooooooooooong loooooooooooong osu history
Considering mapper inflation, we must need solution to make mappers satisfied without current "Ranked" Beatmap system.
I'm dying for listening "I want to make my beatmap ranked cuz it's good but BAT doesn't mod mine"


We should motivate mappers to map for good. Not for carrot like rank



Gladi: Nouuuuu I'm too lazy to map now :<<<
posted
As much as 07'-08' were good years minyeob, it's good to let go of the past.

With a community this big, your radical utopia will never exist (unless that modding system comes, then us BAT's are shifted back to a unrank role + random mods are to be expected).

The chart system is currently under work to a little bit of what you described (you'd know if you'd take my suggestion of getting back into discussions within the team, I highly encourage it! you're even welcome as alumni.).

You will only go as far as you want to go in today's mapping world. Nothing more, nothing less.

PS: My priority is helping first time mappers out. My hand is extended to all those that don't have a ranked map yet. Please contact me if you fit within this criteria.
posted
Ugh... I don't like where you're suggesting we go with map ranking. It's mapper discrimination.

Lets group all the good maps together in charts, and discourage anyone to play anything but these maps.

Improving the System

If you guys want better and more involved modding community, then I suggest doing things that encourage people not only to mod maps, but to be fair to everyone and mod a wide number of maps from all skill levels. Proper influence will invoke change in the current generation of BATs, but also in the future generations.

I would try to set aside the readiness of a map as a determinant for a mod. It matters not how far along a map is from being ranked. A BAT should be willing to mod a map of any quality. I believe it is part of our duty to help mappers improve and to inspire others to mod and map with confidence. A BAT is handling his job in a very shallow way if he only tends to ranking maps.

Basic Expectations

A BAT should be blunt. Only a blunt approach will get through to mapper's who are willing to listen. Make sure you can lead the mapper to a solution for fixing a map that shows effort on your part. Remap/ remove this map shows to the mapper that you made very little effort to try to help them. I highly recommend that you provide example patterns as a template for fixing whatever needs to be fixed.

Consider yourself an expert in the art of mapping. If you're not sure about something, you have an entire panel of BAT experts at your disposal. The mapper doesn't have the same opportunity.

You are the people who decide what quality is, make sure you can make a clear definition. Your role as primary ranker will be greatly diminished under the new system, so you will have more time to mod maps for request.

Make sure that mapper's don't feel intimidated by you. All of my modding terms are phrased in an inviting way and open-ended way. I am not strict about denying a request. (BATs shouldn't be denying requests anyways when they have a network of people to forward requests). Keep in mind that not everyone feels comfortable making a request to a BAT, myself included. By having a widespread requirement that mappers must ask a BAT for help, you alienate a group of mappers from getting their maps looked at by a BAT. BATs will provide several excuses to support their actions, but however you reason it, it is still a failure to assist a mapper's needs based on what is convenient to the BAT. It shows lack of effort and is unprofessional.

It is common sense!

This is a really severe case of not seeing the forest through the trees. If you actually looked for maps that were worthy of being modded by a BAT it would be very easy to find them. BATs don't need people to suggest maps for them, they have the ability to seek out maps on their own and use their own judgment. BATs take the lazy way out by requiring that mappers go to them and quite inaccurately assuming that they don't need their help or are not worthy of their help. Lets alienate another subgroup of mappers who feel like BATs should look at their map when it has reached a certain number of mods/ star priority. I mean there couldn't possibly be people using the current system correctly right?

If you have common sense then you can do this. The ability to seek out and help mappers in need should be a minimum baseline requirement for a BAT. By not doing so you're like a store employee who blatantly decides to ignore a customer who needs your assistance for insert personal reason here. Some customers expect you to notice they are in distress and will berate you if you don't notice them. Stop looking the other way, the people who are getting irate because they aren't getting their map looked at by a BAT are not hard to find.

Conclusion

I would avoid trying to lump all the pending maps into one category. Some maps are long overdue for a BAT post, and there are lots of mappers who require guidance more than anything. The system would be instantly improved in BATs actively sought out mappers in need rather than expecting mappers to go to them through queues that fill up in 2 minutes.
posted
Actually, there are one more huge problem what never was mentiored before.

Thought we have now small enough team, how much of current BATs are really active? Some of them modding 1-2 maps per month, which is pretty much nothing for today's mapping. Current team in fact is even smaller than it looks.

Inactivity count really should be smaller imo, it is not that hard to mod at least 1 map per 2 weeks.
posted
Apparently even alumni can't post in the right subforum.
Please sign in to reply.