Why you aren't improving at osu! "HOW DO I GET BETTER?!?!"

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Sarthorious
This game is seriously not newbie friendly, since there isn't a correct difficulty scale (stars are broken) and the newbie doesn't know how to improve, so he try to play hard stuff after practicing around 5 days and then develop bad habits.

To solve this problem, a star rating of difficulty should be based in general opinion of the players of all levels, but this game is so poorly designed, that it forces you to learn what is needed to get PP and try to beat players who have been playing for a very long time osu!standar or other rhythm games. It doesn't reward competing against yourself with a quest system, level up system, "titles" determined by your skill. This game doesn't feel like a game, it feels more like an arena where players fight between them, without skill distinction, to obtain pp and be the best.

The concept behind osu is totally messed up and I have not doubt that the popularity of this game will decrease once there are few potentials players to join this.
Mahogany
That's the newbie's fault, though, for ruining themselves. People are perfectly willing to give proper advice if they're willing to listen.

I've always found stars to be reasonably correct with few outstanding exceptions.

You're never forced to learn what's needed to gain PP. Only if you care about ranks. A quest system in a rhythm game? How would that work? There's already a levels system. I don't see the benefit of titles. In my opinion, the PP system is the perfect reward for competing. I think this game feels plenty like a game for me. In fact, it's the closest thing to a pure game I have found in a long time, with no story or anything to get in the way: Just pure gameplay.
Sarthorious
I can see that you like the game; but your opinions are extremely biased, and you don't have enough knowledge about rhythms games.

"Quest system" -> check o2jam, DJMax Trilogy, Beatmania IIDX, etc... Could provide a lot of fun and motivation to compete against yourself and not again others (aka pp)

Titles -> check Lunatic Rave 2 internet rankings, http://www.dream-pro.info/~lavalse/LR2I ... =gradelist ... Very fun too, somewhat hardcore, feel proud about something "tangible" which have value and very motivating.

Once you are a bit more mature, I think we can continue this conversation, because I except you to not begin to defend something you like for the pure fact of defend it.
Endaris
idk, osu! wasn't that competitive before ppv2 I think.
There's no need to become really good at this game and people can just enjoy themselves playing, be it solo or in multi with friends.
You might think that osu! is really competitive but it isn't unless you want it to be. None forces you to compete with other players, you can play offline for your entire life.

Besides from that there are no newb-friendly rhythm-games therefore I don't see why osu! should try to become one. And I think star difficulty has a decent degree of accuracy for the lower star brackets(below 3/3.5) ;)
Mahogany

Fabi- wrote:

"Quest system" -> check o2jam, DJMax Trilogy, Beatmania IIDX, etc... Could provide a lot of fun and motivation to compete against yourself and not again others (aka pp)
I personally find PP as a perfectly acceptable way to provide fun and motivation, though, and don't quite see what's wrong with that.

I don't understand anything in that rankings list.

Fabi- wrote:

Once you are a bit more mature, I think we can continue this conversation, because I except you to not begin to defend something you like for the pure fact of defend it.
I'm defending it because I disagree with what you say completely. I do feel this game rewards competing against yourself with the PP system. I feel that the game is far more newbie friendly than any other rhythm game I've ever played, and I do feel it's perfectly possible to enjoy the game without caring for ranks, and I do not feel the concept behind osu is totally messed up, because I don't even know what you're calling messed up.

So I guess my point is that I don't see what your point is. Yes, there's the possibility that those things would improve the game, but the game is already a very solid game as it is, and already rewards progression, and I feel it's a bit of a far cry to call the game "Totally messed up" or "doesn't feel like a game"
Sarthorious
Mahonagy, if you re read my post you will notice that I never said that pp doesn't encourages competing against yourself, but my critique is against the lack of resources to compete against yourself. You can play this game offline, enjoy it as much as you can in multiplayer with friends, enjoy the songs, but this game promotes too much competing against others in an atmosphere where a newbie would find really skilled players who maybe didn't play osu too much, but at least played other rhythm games. And to add more salt to the problematic, and to understand what I meant with "The rank system is broken", you just need to put some very high rank players to play some old maps with low AR, or let some of them play slow BPM streams, or weird patterns, then ask yourself "what's hard?". Maybe you won't understand this right now.

So if this game is focused on competing against others, how are the newbies going to actually be able to compete against others? How do you except a 2015 player, that will play non-stop till 2018 to beat an old player who has experience in many kind of aspects including low AR, weird or disliked patterns among the players, slow BPM streams , etc... if the progression in this game is viewed mainly from a PP perspective?

Probably only experienced players in musical instruments or other rhythm games like the beatmania series, will be able to successful improve correctly and then they will have a chance to compete against the others.

At least this guide is a very good resource to obtain knowledge and maybe a good preparation for what this game is making you want, talking in broad terms.

Don't bother answering this reply, since I don't have time to read this again and I left standar a long time ago, but came back a bit for o!m, but I will be totally AFK from now.
Mahogany

Fabi- wrote:

lack of resources to compete against yourself.
Oh, well in that case I'll have to agree to disagree. Chasing FCs and PP is plenty rewarding for me. I agree there could be more but I don't personally see a need for anything else, as I personally feel PP and the feeling of my own progression is satisfying enough by itself.

Fabi- wrote:

"The rank system is broken", you just need to put some very high rank players to play some old maps with low AR, or let some of them play slow BPM streams, or weird patterns, then ask yourself "what's hard?". Maybe you won't understand this right now.
Well that depends on whether the high rank players bother to know low AR/BPM or weird patterns. It's not practical knowledge for ranking, so a good few won't, because the community at large doesn't seem to like those values.

Fabi- wrote:

So if this game is focused on competing against others, how are the newbies going to actually be able to compete against others?
The same way everyone else competes? By playing the game of course, and improving yourself. I've gotten to 5k in a year, so it's definitely not difficult to compete as a new player.

Fabi- wrote:

How do you except a 2015 player, that will play non-stop till 2018 to beat an old player
Rafis signed up only 2 years ago and is currently rank 2 globally. It's very much possible.

Fabi- wrote:

low AR, weird or disliked patterns among the players, slow BPM streams , etc... if the progression in this game is viewed mainly from a PP perspective?
Those values aren't favored among the community and you're unlikely to find any of those values in a newer ranked map, so they're not relevant to PP, honestly. A majority seem to dislike them, or at least not enjoy them, so they don't get made.
Sarthorious
Damn dude! I came back to check this thread because I was interested in the opinion of the people, extrapolating it from you, but you don't seem to understand anything I say! xDD! Internet conversations are not for me. I'm done.
Mahogany
Believe what you want
-Makishima S-
This game is seriously not newbie friendly, since there isn't a correct difficulty scale (stars are broken) and the newbie doesn't know how to improve, so he try to play hard stuff after practicing around 5 days and then develop bad habits.
Yes and in same time No - actual gaming community or other way, youth is not used to read usefull informations in forums. Sticky topics explain a lot of stuff and time spent to read it, think about it and understand pays off with way better progression curve. Star system is in above 90% cases good and properly set up way of progressing.
Additionaly high level skilled players do not help others simply becouse of feeling "pride" of being skilled (i don't take this from them). In years of live streaming, newbs go to"C" or others stream, see shiny crazy maps and they want to play them instantly - wrong. Noone is even telling them about journey what every skilled player made to gain ability of properly playing this game, they are not aware of bad habits etc. We find here skilled players who actualy help A LOT (even from top ranks), example of Azer when he got asked how he trained to be good, he explained path of progressing and for my personal surprise, denied newbie from playing any mods till he can utilize last pp from nomod. I can find a lot examples of both, here in forum and on twitch - pride useless players who will tell you in eyes "shut up noob, go fuck yourself scrub" or ignore you becouse you are noob and usefull "god bless you guys" top rank players who wish to help, wish to explain things, wish to talk with you (personaly i didn't talk to any of them, i have my own mentor who keep track on my progress and so far, i end up good, happy and with lots of fun). But whatever, end of taking each point of newb playing too hard maps problem.
Here we come back to sticky topics which should have some parts bolded with text for full screen and additional monit each time newb run too hard for him map without AP - "Your action will destroy your ability to play this game correctly".
But hey, producer cannot deny them from trying to play this maps, it's not mean to be "nazi mode" game with restrictions.

Basicaly if you start playing a game, it's on your side to make research how to progress, how to avoid mistakes and how to colloquially - not be a shit garbage.
Forum topics + GnR provides this informations.
Not our fault, nor peppy or Osu Staff that youth / newbs prefer to yel at us becouse we convince them to stop playing too hard stuff and progress properly.

"Quest system" -> check o2jam, DJMax Trilogy, Beatmania IIDX, etc... Could provide a lot of fun and motivation to compete against yourself and not again others (aka pp)
Osu doesn't need this, it's useless addon. I find fixing scores a good way of checking improvment in way where you challenge YOURSELF and YOUR skillset on harder map, gain score, go back and progress properly to later on play this map one more time and be proud of way better score and more fun from playing it.
Achievement system is also good, actualy making some more rare right now achievement like "Don't let the bunny distract you!" is a challenge, sadly cannot explain why without placing spoilers which will made me banned. Make some research about this by yourself if you want.

It could be way more of them but actualy, i prefer that Staff focus on making client more stable, more customizable and at same time, helping people with their problems than spending time on creating useless achievements which honestly, doesn't prove much.

Account level based on your play time is fine for me, it also doesn't show your skill level, not abilities, useless add-on but why not, i like to "play more" to get this 104/105 level (maybe someday). As everyone know, playing more in way of progressing makes you a better player. Enough motivation to choice proper progression way.

Titles -> check Lunatic Rave 2 internet rankings, http://www.dream-pro.info/~lavalse/LR2I ... =gradelist ... Very fun too, somewhat hardcore, feel proud about something "tangible" which have value and very motivating.
Ranking is not enough? You realy want some "titles"?
I don't see point in this.

Both of ideas above reminds me of "grind" / "boring questing" from MMO.
It doesn't make sense here, at all.

Once you are a bit more mature, I think we can continue this conversation, because I except you to not begin to defend something you like for the pure fact of defend it.
By saing this you just proved that you are not mature.
Being adult doesn't make you mature and other way.
Mature person don't go agressive and offend speaker in way like you done it here. I recommend you to rethink your way of speaking unless you want someone to make disquisition about interpersonal communication and way of proper discussion and argumentation.

but my critique is against the lack of resources to compete against yourself
I think we have here lack of imaginary. Example how i compete with myself (i will repeat it anyway):
As player who is on ~4.5* 180 bpm max ar9 od8 skill level, i like to go into 5* and challenge myself, make complete focus on what i am doing, how i am doing, place everything what i learned till now into max efficiency on challenging map, make best possible score and leave it. It's how i was doing while i was playing 3* -> go into 4*, challenge yourself, skill up, play it again. I was proud (and i think i am still proud) of some high acc fc what i made now, but i wasn't able to make while being lower skilled player. So now, when i have ~92/94% low miss amount scores on few 5/5.3* maps, when i rise my skill level, and fc them with acc above 98% or even 99% close to 100 i will feel same - yes, i am competing with myself to "beat" this score and i need to play more, progress to do this properly.

And to add more salt to the problematic, and to understand what I meant with "The rank system is broken", you just need to put some very high rank players to play some old maps with low AR, or let some of them play slow BPM streams, or weird patterns, then ask yourself "what's hard?". Maybe you won't understand this right now.
Old maps are great and honestly, if newbs could play them way more insteed of hearing "overall hate against old maps from bullshit community", acc problem would disappear, same as reading ceratin patterns, especialy stacked notes. Guess how Azer was training to improve his acc on HDHR: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/31819 +HDHR, repeat, repeat, don't give up. Just an example. I am sad that so many people actualy hate old maps becouse to be fair - more than half of haters are completly unable to play them due rising hype of high ar and sanic speed bpm, other half are mindless sheeps following them. There are exeptions who can actualy make some arguments and speak their minds with understanding problem of some old maps where great majority of this haters cannot even make single proper argument to justify this hate.

No, you don't need high skilled player to play old maps, they are in same way - from 0.5* into 6*, major diffrence is that old mapping favorize circle clicking and acc insteed of mindless 80% sliders, 10% break time, 10% circles like it is now becouse "it's easy to check, easy to mod, easy to map............ overall easier in everything". Old maps force you to learn how to acc, how to read maps and this two abilities if properly polished while progressing, makes your gameplay later on way easier.

But we need to go with time and make game and maps more friendly to newcommers so actualy creating way easier maps than it was before is fine.

So if this game is focused on competing against others, how are the newbies going to actually be able to compete against others? How do you except a 2015 player, that will play non-stop till 2018 to beat an old player who has experience in many kind of aspects including low AR, weird or disliked patterns among the players, slow BPM streams , etc... if the progression in this game is viewed mainly from a PP perspective?
How you see progression is your way of thinking. Game doesn't tell you that "progression" = more pp. 2 players with same amount of pp at moment of being able to properly play actualy challenging maps above 4* AR9 are diffrent. Here actualy start specializing into aim/speed (later on DT players), aim/acc (later on HR players) or mix of both (takes longer to asimilate nesesery amount of "skill"), at the end in top rank, you should be able to play everything. On your rank you should actualy know this.

Let's take Rafis as example, took him 2 years to reach #2 and being fairly competetive to top tier players, in my personal opinion even to "everyone-know-who-naming-is-bannable-peppy-hate-him", WWW, rrtyui or hvick.
Everything is matter how you come into this game, you forgot that competetive player who is serious about competition will train skillset insteed of watching useless numbers which will incerase anyway while you make progress.

That's all from me. Feel free to throw words but i expect arguments, examples and TRULY mature speaker, else i will just ignore your wall-of-tears.
nhule12345
i read this twice and still crying :'(
BunPyon
I've been playing 2 months now and I have no idea what snapping is! Shoot, I just found out that using the keyboard to hit notes while letting my tablet to guide was much easier (after playing osu! at my bf's house with a mouse) for me. I also didn't notice the hit sound thing. Overall, I thought this was a great thread!
Mahogany
Snapping is a method of aiming where you try to make a very sharp and fast movement to reach the next circle as soon as possible. I personally don't feel it's necessary but it's a useful skill to have.
Cthru
I died laughing while reading this XD but this really helped with a few things i wasn't sure about. Thanks!
Shiuzyo
much true, really
Truly, I play osu not just improving on it :l to be honest, i don't panic when I don't have the streaming skills that can compete with Wub :l

I just like to enjoy the music :3 ~~~~~~~lmao x3 - Cool
Karmeleon
Well, I'm now one step closer to becoming the best!
Time to slave away.
Blackbetty6
LARGE!!!
Blackbetty6
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Blackbetty6
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Blackbetty6
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