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Why following melody/vocals is bad in mapping

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Total Posts
14
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
Topic Starter
dennischan
I think that the vocals are the most important part in almost any music. It sure dosen't make sense to map the drums instead of the vocals, as the drums is just plainly a not important accompaniment for the main melody.

It's even worse when people put random beats on white ticks when there is no drums, no guitar, no vocals on the part, and they just justify it with "argh this note is on a white tick uguu~'

I just want to know how the community thinks about this, detesting following vocals and following drums and empty beats instead.
I want to know why its bad following vocals yet acceptable to put beats on random white ticks where there's no music...

a quote at last~~

D33d wrote:

mnto wrote:

1. Any notes/sliders that attempt to follow the vocals in a song. Especially if the vocals aren't quantized, or are on awkward beats.
May I ask why you detest the mapping of vocals? If they're carrying the song, then it's usually a good idea to map them. Because the melody usually has the most variance, changing between the lead and rhythm gives the map as much unique interest as possible. If the vocals ARE awkward and are being followed, then the mapper should be following their approximate rhythm and what's happening behind them, in a way which coincides with them.
I'm sorry if I offend any of you, but I'm just curious about this problem
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
What prompted this thread, and what is the source of that quote?

I think when someone says not to map on vocals, what they mean is to not map to the miniscule imperfections that come as a result of human singing and instead to map to the more constant music behind the voice.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Soaprman wrote:

I think when someone says not to map on vocals, what they mean is to not map to the miniscule imperfections that come as a result of human singing and instead to map to the more constant music behind the voice.
Some people really are against mapping to the melody, period. Doesn't seem to be that many though.
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
Topic Starter
dennischan
Oh anyway, I was just told by a modder not to map on vocals too much, and I was quite mystified...
anyway, the quote is from subforum mapping techniques,
t/78919/start=15
this thread
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
If you're ever mystified by what a modder says, ask them to explain the reasoning behind it.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

dennischan wrote:

Oh anyway, I was just told by a modder not to map on vocals too much, and I was quite mystified...
anyway, the quote is from subforum mapping techniques,
t/78919/start=15
this thread
Link the map and i'll have a looksie later. When done correctly it should not be an issue at all.
Pastella
27 posts
Joined December 2013
Pastella

Ekaru wrote:

dennischan wrote:

Oh anyway, I was just told by a modder not to map on vocals too much, and I was quite mystified...
anyway, the quote is from subforum mapping techniques,
t/78919/start=15
this thread
Link the map and i'll have a looksie later. When done correctly it should not be an issue at all.

Well, kk if it's not too much it won't be an issue. But it really sucks to play on maps which are 100% based on vocals. Osu! is also not meant to be mapped on vocals. Rhythm = Drums / Snares / Bass. And that's what everyone should be mapping on. I'm deleting every single beatmap as soon as I notice that it's mapped on the vocals. The vocals NEVER have a constant algorithm. You just can't play it very good and it does not make that much fun.
jericho2442
osu! Alumni
1,918 posts
Joined March 2009
jericho2442

Nyzashi wrote:

Osu! is also not meant to be mapped on vocals.
uhm hello? do you even know what osu is? xD its a pc version of EBA from the nintendo 3ds. and guess what....yup you guessed it ;D the original and "the way its meant to be" is mapped to the vocals.

really can you people do some actual research into what you say rather than trying to point your view as actual fact.

the fact is "osu is also not meant to be mapped to vocals" is legitimately wrong and is purely you trying to assert personal opinion above common sense and facts.

please feel free to continue this convo as much as you want, as long as you stop trying to pretend you actually know why and what this game was built for :roll: :roll:

proof


The vocals NEVER have a constant algorithm
no they do, every song is built by 3 main building blocks, verse, chorus and a bridge. vocally every verse within the song follows the identical notation to the others only with changed words what still fit in the same section, the chorus is identical always and repeated once between each verse. before the final chorus of a song you enter a bridge which is musically different in every form not just vocals.
vocals are 100% the same as other parts of the music, its just the actual words said change....this is also extreme common sense...
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Nyzashi wrote:

Osu! is also not meant to be mapped on vocals.
Here is a map made by the creator of this game: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/184
Pastella
27 posts
Joined December 2013
Pastella

jericho2442 wrote:

uhm hello? do you even know what osu is? xD its a pc version of EBA from the nintendo 3ds. and guess what....yup you guessed it ;D the original and "the way its meant to be" is mapped to the vocals.

really can you people do some actual research into what you say rather than trying to point your view as actual fact.

the fact is "osu is also not meant to be mapped to vocals" is legitimately wrong and is purely you trying to assert personal opinion above common sense and facts.

please feel free to continue this convo as much as you want, as long as you stop trying to pretend you actually know why and what this game was built for :roll: :roll:

proof


The vocals NEVER have a constant algorithm
no they do, every song is built by 3 main building blocks, verse, chorus and a bridge. vocally every verse within the song follows the identical notation to the others only with changed words what still fit in the same section, the chorus is identical always and repeated once between each verse. before the final chorus of a song you enter a bridge which is musically different in every form not just vocals.
vocals are 100% the same as other parts of the music, its just the actual words said change....this is also extreme common sense...
Oh gawd that's heavy. Ok, ok. I was wrong. But even with your arguments I still don't agree that vocals have a constant algorithm.
I agree with everything you said, but it's still fact that it sounds like your farting to Jingle Bells. And you should know that there can be in every single song a little part were the algorithm is completely missing. Osu! is a rhythm game.. Vocals change their rhythm quite often. And if just everyone puts his brain on the "ON-MODE", it's fact that you mess up the song while you're mapping on the vocals. I saw your proof, I was wrong. But that's exactly what I mean. Well, maybe it's just my view but... THE SONG IS MESSED UP.

I also think that everyone's just mapping on the vocals, or even playing on the vocals because they don't have enough rhythm emotion.
Rhythm: Bass (tact: 1/3 1/4 1/6 [BPM]). Drums + Snares variegate.
If you're mapping on the drums etc., you're emphasizing the background rhythm and the vocals are still understandable. The song got better, and isn't fcked up like it is in your lil' proof.

Well, all in all i'm still pretty sure that it's not meant to be mapped on vocals.. And if it is, it's just not... right. I'm playing very much instruments since 9 years and it does NOT make any sense to me.

Excuse me sir, I was wrong :D


EDIT: It's also okay to map on the melody. I never said that that's a thing that should be prevented. It's just the vocals what sounds like a pooping party if you're mapping on it.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Vocals aren't supposed to have a constant pattern. Variations and rhythmic complexity is what makes the game interesting. 1/2s everywhere and predictable streams starting on beat 1 and ending on beat 4 are zzzzzzzzzz.
Pastella
27 posts
Joined December 2013
Pastella

mm201 wrote:

Vocals aren't supposed to have a constant pattern. Variations and rhythmic complexity is what makes the game interesting. 1/2s everywhere and predictable streams starting on beat 1 and ending on beat 4 are zzzzzzzzzz.
Yep ofc they're boring. But that's again a little thing where you should use your brain lol.
It just sounds better if you're mapping on the beat, not on the vocals. But it'd get boring after a while. Sooo~.
Use that thing you have in your head; add some "beats" by yourself and get creative. Add tripple's at some points with just one beat. Or add some streams and spinners by using your brain and.. let's say.. re-write the background rhythm but don't touch the song itself.
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
Topic Starter
dennischan

Nyzashi wrote:

mm201 wrote:

Vocals aren't supposed to have a constant pattern. Variations and rhythmic complexity is what makes the game interesting. 1/2s everywhere and predictable streams starting on beat 1 and ending on beat 4 are zzzzzzzzzz.
Yep ofc they're boring. But that's again a little thing where you should use your brain lol.
It just sounds better if you're mapping on the beat, not on the vocals. But it'd get boring after a while. Sooo~.
Use that thing you have in your head; add some "beats" by yourself and get creative. Add tripple's at some points with just one beat. Or add some streams and spinners by using your brain and.. let's say.. re-write the background rhythm but don't touch the song itself.
I am afraid that wuold be overmapping...
I thought that we were supposed to follow the music, not the 'random fantasies in your brain'
we shouldn't make up something else if there is already clear cues in the music for us to follow.
sorry if this might offend, but I find mapping to the vocal is the most natural way to map.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

And erm..
Ekaru, if you're still free, here 's my map. I wasn't on forums for a few days.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/123248
thanks anyway for the offer
aBunny
158 posts
Joined September 2013
aBunny

jericho2442 wrote:

Nyzashi wrote:

Osu! is also not meant to be mapped on vocals.
uhm hello? do you even know what osu is? xD its a pc version of EBA from the nintendo 3ds. and guess what....yup you guessed it ;D the original and "the way its meant to be" is mapped to the vocals.

really can you people do some actual research into what you say rather than trying to point your view as actual fact.

the fact is "osu is also not meant to be mapped to vocals" is legitimately wrong and is purely you trying to assert personal opinion above common sense and facts.

please feel free to continue this convo as much as you want, as long as you stop trying to pretend you actually know why and what this game was built for :roll: :roll:

proof


The vocals NEVER have a constant algorithm
no they do, every song is built by 3 main building blocks, verse, chorus and a bridge. vocally every verse within the song follows the identical notation to the others only with changed words what still fit in the same section, the chorus is identical always and repeated once between each verse. before the final chorus of a song you enter a bridge which is musically different in every form not just vocals.
vocals are 100% the same as other parts of the music, its just the actual words said change....this is also extreme common sense...
Just because the original is like that does not mean its better. The original game WAS built for :vocals: but the way it was, it was more like a proof of concept and osu! refined it. Frankly speaking, the quality of beatmaps in osu is better than the original game. But at the end of the day, it really all depends on how the vocal is and what kind of interpretation the beatmapper has in his mind.

more or less, its better to not map vocals on harder difficulties.
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