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Official osu! Tournament ideas.

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Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
Discussion is underway in the mod lounge discussing ideas for the upcoming osu! Tournament. (This time it's for real.)

Gabi and I will be in charge of the tournament, however there are some issues that need to be taken care of (A registration system, mainly) before we can run this. Due to that, there is no current time frame we have for running the tournament yet. In the meantime, I will display our current set of proposed rules for this tournament.

Do you have a better idea on how this tournament could be handled? Please post with your feedback! The idea here is that everybody in osu! can have a say in how this should be done.




Competition Format:
  1. 1v1 competition with a Judge present to record scores.
  2. No mods allowed except for No Video.
  3. IMPORTANT: Players MUST save replays after EVERY song. To do so, simply press F2 at the results screen. If an issue arises, a player may be asked by a judge to submit his or her replay. Failure to do so will result in a DISQUALIFICATION.

Song Selection:
  1. High seed gets first song choice, low seed selects the 2nd song.
  2. In the result of a tie, the judge will select the 3rd song. Choice will always be highest difficulty available on the song.
  3. Songs must be selected from a list generated by the Judges.

Victory Conditions:
  1. Victory is determined by Score ALONE.
  2. In the event a player fails a song, the other player is the winner.
  3. In the event BOTH players fail, the highest score at the end of the song wins. Even if you fail, PLAY UNTIL THE END.

Elimination:
  1. Matches are DOUBLE ELIMINATION.
  2. Upon losing a match, players are placed in the "Loser's Bracket."
  3. Winner of the "Loser's Bracket" will have to defeat the undefeated champion of the "Winner's Bracket" in 2 separate matches to be considered the overall champion.

Registration:

  • To be determined.

Rewards:

  • To be determined.

Disconnections:
  1. To prevent any foul play, any disconnection will result in a LOSS FOR THE CURRENT SONG.
  2. Make sure your connection is stable before attempting to play.
Judges:
  1. If necessary, Judges will be hand picked by Cyclone and Gabi.
    (We may be able to do this ourselves, but we'll wait and see how many participants there will be.)
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
We can do this for taiko to pl0x? orz.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
Maybe this will give me motivation to get a new computer finally... I really don't trust my laptop enough for multi... (I hardly trust it in solo orz)
ShaggoN
689 posts
Joined September 2008
ShaggoN

Cyclone wrote:

text
Awesome plan. Totally agree with rules. :D

I have a litle idea: Tournaments beatmaps would be for example from beatmap packs #21-#30, next tournament from beatmap packs #31-#40 etc.

What do You think about it?
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose
There should be a "minimum difficulty" allowed when choosing the difficulty from your opponent's song. This way people won't get any "bright ideas" to pick some 1 star easy and win from spinner bonus alone (or SS everything and tie).
Daru
osu!painter
866 posts
Joined August 2008
Daru

Lybydose wrote:

There should be a "minimum difficulty" allowed when choosing the difficulty from your opponent's song. This way people won't get any "bright ideas" to pick some 1 star easy and win from spinner bonus alone (or SS everything and tie).
Agreed.
If there are enough participants, two difficulty "classes" may be necessary, wherein you have to pass a certain song to compete in the harder of the two, which will only feature harder songs.

Otherwise, unless Gabi wants me to judge in this tournament too, I'm definitely interested in competing.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
That is indeed a good point. What should the minimum difficulty be when selecting a song? Should it go by Star rating alone, or by the name of the difficulty itself?

An example of why I proposed this system is so people won't select things they KNOW their opponent will fail, such as Chocobo or I Want You, etc. If somebody picked one of those against me, I'd go down 1 difficulty personally.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
Added rule:

A player CANNOT select an individual song twice for the ENTIRE tournament. A song selected in round 1 cannot be chosen in round 2, for example. (or 3, etc.)
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
How are matches made? What happens when a victory is made? Single elimination? Double elimination? This is highly important!

Rules look nice so far.

Can two plays be made using the same song in the same round by two different pairs? E.g. players A and B play Kanbu and players C and D play Kanbu on round 1. (Concurrency may be an issue, i.e. if multiple matches are being played at one time.)

I suggest a check for storyboard and skin tampering (e.g. removal). Not sure how this could be accomplished easily.

May I suggest replays MUST be submitted by each participant? This will help prevent cheating.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
How are matches made? What happens when a victory is made? Single elimination? Double elimination? This is highly important!
Thanks for that. As for HOW the matches are made, I'll wait on that. Adding in:

Elimination:
  1. Matches are DOUBLE ELIMINATION.
  2. Upon losing a match, players are placed in the "Loser's Bracket."
  3. Winner of the "Loser's Bracket" will have to defeat the undefeated champion of the "Winner's Bracket" in 2 separate matches to be considered the overall champion

Rules look nice so far.

Can two plays be made using the same song in the same round by two different pairs? E.g. players A and B play Kanbu and players C and D play Kanbu on round 1. (Concurrency may be an issue, i.e. if multiple matches are being played at one time.)
There is no reason why everybody cannot select Kanbu as their Round 1 song choice. They can even choose the same song their opponent just picked, just as long as they have not chosen it themselves in the tournament.

I suggest a check for storyboard and skin tampering (e.g. removal). Not sure how this could be accomplished easily.
Not possible currently. Apparently with .osz2 that wouldn't be an issue, but that's not complete yet.

May I suggest replays MUST be submitted by each participant? This will help prevent cheating.
The judge is present for this very reason.

1v1 competition with a Judge present to record scores.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

Cyclone wrote:

May I suggest replays MUST be submitted by each participant? This will help prevent cheating.
The judge is present for this very reason.

1v1 competition with a Judge present to record scores.
This was intended to check for macroers, mostly, and perhaps check play style if White Wolf subs in for peppy or something crazy like that, if an issue arises.
Daru
osu!painter
866 posts
Joined August 2008
Daru

Strager wrote:

I suggest a check for storyboard and skin tampering (e.g. removal). Not sure how this could be accomplished easily.

Cyclone wrote:

Gabi and I will be in charge of the tournament, however there are some issues that need to be taken care of on the developmental side of things before we can run this.
Perhaps include storyboard and sprite image checksums in the "developmental issues" that peppy will fix? (i.e. ask him to make something temporary for this) Within these, by the way, I'd also suggest Multiplayer game spectating (for judges), and spectator replay retrieval (for judges to save replays of the games he/she watches).

Cyclone wrote:

That is indeed a good point. What should the minimum difficulty be when selecting a song? Should it go by Star rating alone, or by the name of the difficulty itself?
Since star rating is a constant throughout all songs (whereas difficulty name can vary), I think we should use that. Also, if both players agree to a lower-starred song, then it should be allowed, but if one player objects to a difficulty that is below the minimum star requirement, then the difficulty will have to be raised. This is opposed to, if the song is above the minimum star requirement, it cannot be objected to.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
ignorethis
osu! Alumni
1,885 posts
Joined August 2008
ignorethis
I suggest that certain maps with too high difficulties should not be picked. Take kanbu as an example, we know that some players have practised hard to get high scores, while most people have not. If one player is faced with another practised player, it'll be a bit unfair. Same for WIWIM, marisa, etc.

Maps like Justice to Believe are ok, because no one is required to be specially trained for playing well.
Doomsday
osu! Alumni
1,960 posts
Joined July 2008
Doomsday

ignorethis wrote:

I suggest that certain maps with too high difficulties should not be picked. Take kanbu as an example, we know that some players have practised hard to get high scores, while most people have not. If one player is faced with another practised player, it'll be a bit unfair. Same for WIWIM, marisa, etc.

Maps like Justice to Believe are ok, because no one is required to be specially trained for playing well.
difficulty is subjective though. some people might find maps like that to be easier or harder than other people find them.

also, i don't think this should be much of an issue, since if a player did choose Kanbu or something like that, the other player has to choose the difficulty, and odds are they'll pick an easier difficulty to throw their opponent off or something. for this purpose, i assume no approved maps are allowed in this
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

Doomsday93 wrote:

odds are they'll pick an easier difficulty to throw their opponent off or something.
I somehow doubt that.

Anyway, I think it's a non-issue, ignorethis. If a player can't play one of the difficulties of a map set, don't choose that map set. That way, your opponent can't choose the difficulty you suck at.
Gopice
51 posts
Joined December 2008
Gopice

Daru wrote:

Since star rating is a constant throughout all songs (whereas difficulty name can vary), I think we should use that. Also, if both players agree to a lower-starred song, then it should be allowed, but if one player objects to a difficulty that is below the minimum star requirement, then the difficulty will have to be raised. This is opposed to, if the song is above the minimum star requirement, it cannot be objected to.
I would much rather have a Judge decide whether specific difficulties are allowed or not, while this is subjective it's way more reliable than the star rating where even normal difficulties raise above 4 stars.
Yes this would require a judge to check the difficulties of a specific mapset, which would be no problem if players have to send in chosen mapsets beforehand.
Cyclone
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Topic Starter
Cyclone
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anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

Cyclone wrote:

@Strager
@STRAGER
@sTRAGER
fu =[

Cyclone wrote:

How about we set the bare minimum to 3 stars, unless agreed upon by BOTH players. With this, no mapsets with ALL difficulties under 3 stars can be selected.

Discuss please.
Sounds good to me.
Ryohan
794 posts
Joined July 2008
Ryohan

Cyclone wrote:

How about we set the bare minimum to 3 stars, unless agreed upon by BOTH players. With this, no mapsets with ALL difficulties under 3 stars can be selected.
Discuss please.
^
+1

I think that this is great idea :D
Daru
osu!painter
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Joined August 2008
Daru
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
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Topic Starter
Cyclone
I'll start a temporary poll on the matter.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
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Topic Starter
Cyclone
OP has been updated.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
3 to 3.5 should be the minimum IMO.

Mainly because there are a few Hards that are 3.5. These mostly are a low BPM. But they feel much more like a Hard than a Normal.

Most 3 to 3.5s are often only that low because A. low BPM, B. they have spurts of beats, then a second or three without beats but not long enough for a break, then repeat, whereas 4+ star maps are constant throughout, or C. a combination of those two.

Point is, they often aren't significantly easier when you are actually playing them.

Of course, it's mainly maps from around the time I joined or before that are like this. But even the easiest Hards are 3.5; can't think of one lower than that. 3.5 or 3 should be the minimum IMO, just because of a few more modern exceptions, and some old classics.

I do think that the judge-chosen maps should have a higher star minimum due to this very reason, though. 4.5 seems about right.
anonymous_old
0 posts
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anonymous_old
Okay, I noticed there may be a problem with some beatmap sets which only have very difficult maps (like many approved maps). So, I think there should be restrictions on what beatmap sets can be chosen, too.

E.g. a beatmap set may only be chosen if it is approved, contains at least two difficulties, and one difficulty is below X stars and one is above or equal to X stars (where X is some limit defined by the poll or whatever).
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
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Topic Starter
Cyclone
I only stated ranked maps in the OP. I never mentioned approved.

EDIT: I'll specify in the OP
Gopice
51 posts
Joined December 2008
Gopice
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anonymous_old
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Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

gopice wrote:

This is because the the star rating overestimates the influence by the overall difficulty setting and doesn't take
spacing into account.
You obviously don't understand how the star rating is derived.

gopice wrote:

Like I said earlier couldn't you just ask players to send chosen mapsets beforehand and ban certain difficulties?
It's better to have set rules than make a million exceptional cases.
Gopice
51 posts
Joined December 2008
Gopice

strager wrote:

You obviously don't understand how the star rating is derived.
Actually I do. Have you reflected the algorithm and checked for yourself? I guess not.
There is no taking account of spacing in anywhere in the algorithm.

strager wrote:

It's better to have set rules than make a million exceptional cases.
I agree to this, except for the fact that a star difficulty limitation isn't a good rule to rely on, as the star difficulty is a too inaccurate representation of the real difficulty.
Ekaru
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Joined July 2008
Ekaru
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Gopice
51 posts
Joined December 2008
Gopice
This strategy can be enforced either way as there there are also a lot of maps with no real hard difficulties (which still have a high star rating).
That being said, most of the ranked maps with ridiculous difficulties also have a a lesser more playable difficulty with still a relatively high star rating. examples: I Want You [tough], chocobo[black] and 1985[Rolled]
Your case should not pose a real problem.

On the other hand people who want to play an easier difficulty on both games could choose a map like this:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/21895 I have no choice to choose the hard difficulty which is just as easy as the contemporary normal difficulties.
then if I want to play any insane map like http://osu.ppy.sh/b/4564.
they could choose the normal difficulty instead. In both cases the difficulties have a minimum of 4 stars.

Which is why I'm against the star limit as it's just too unreliable.
Cyclone
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Cyclone
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anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

Cyclone wrote:

How about we (the judges) post which songs are allowed each round, listing any limitations to them, such as which difficulties are allowed. We'll be sure to pick plenty based on how many participants there are per round (I'd say like 50 songs for a round of 64 players)
Similar to the tag tourney? I have no objections.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku

Cyclone wrote:

After talking to Gabi, we've come up with this:

How about we (the judges) post which songs are allowed each round, listing any limitations to them, such as which difficulties are allowed. We'll be sure to pick plenty based on how many participants there are per round (I'd say like 50 songs for a round of 64 players)

With this, the "opponent picks difficulty" rule is abolished, and everything is fair game on the list.


Discuss.
Completely agreed.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
@Cyclone: Seems good.
Cyclone
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Cyclone
OP updated.

Any more issues with anything?
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