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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)

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October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream

zKskita wrote:

I just beat my highest EZ score in Zirkfied with HT by quite a wide margin and went from A to S. The result was losing 16 pp...
You still got a crap ton of pp for a halftime mod o_o

261 pp for a Zirkfied HT clear on extra!

So we got HT giving almost full pp, EZ giving full pp, and NF giving the least only ._.

EDIT: I did some looking around, and I guess all those clears with EZ or HT are the result of I'd say a 1/3 deduction. 1/3 doesn't seem like enough even. Any player can mash the hardest part of a song with EZ, even the best if they want! I think the pp for Easy mods should be reduced by 2/3-7/8, but that's just me.
Mono3341480
1 post
Joined January 2013
Mono3341480
Should review and change the number of stars (or difficulty) of maps because it is not very consistent to say ...
A 2 star beatmap can be much more difficult than other 2.5 or 3 star ...
Drace
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace
Well that's to be expected with an algorithm without any pattern recongnition
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream

Drace wrote:

Well that's to be expected with an algorithm without any pattern recongnition
This is why I thought we should have a MAT (Mania appreciation team) or something like that. A computer can't compute the difficulty of a mania map like it can for any other game mode difficulty since mania hasn't been around long on osu!. The minds of 20 players more or less if needed can come up with a better solution of difficulty rating. The only problem with starting a team like that is finding a group of well balanced people. I have a few on my mind who could possibly do something like this, but only a few and not knowing if they'd be willing at first.
Drace
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace
"You" were not the one who thought of it, watch your wording. It was first brought up by Envi and me on page 7.

Considering how we can't even find BATs, a diff grading team might actually not be the best idea. Well for now atleast.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream

Drace wrote:

"You" were not the one who thought of it, watch your wording. It was first brought up by Envi and me on page 7.

Considering how we can't even find BATs, a diff grading team might actually not be the best idea. Well for now atleast.
The reason I said "I" was because Tom brought up the topic again to me after a suggestion to peppy I gave weeks before the chat feud. (That was when the whole DT PP giving too much feud was happening.)
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
2014-03-09 12:02 October Scream: There is a whole contriversy in #osumania due to your pp system and dt
2014-03-09 12:02 October Scream: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1403048
2014-03-09 15:55 Tom94: did you take any steps towards a mania difficulty rating team, by the way?
2014-03-09 15:56 October Scream: I've conversed with a few about it, but they usually forget I was talking with them or they're rarely on.
2014-03-09 15:57 Tom94: aww. it would have been really nice to have some big feedback group there
2014-03-09 15:57 October Scream: I would talk with ideu-, Entozer, _S U W A K O_, and MoTeSolo about 7k. And Staiain would be a good 4k reviewer
2014-03-09 15:57 October Scream: Other keys I haven't searched though
2014-03-09 15:58 Tom94: there would have to be multiple representatives for each keymode, though. can't just have a single person / nobody :/
2014-03-09 15:58 Tom94: oh well, gotta deal with what's in the thread so far
2014-03-09 15:58 October Scream: I know. I forgot to mention Gon since he's a good 4k player
2014-03-09 15:58 October Scream: And ok

There's part of the chatlog, Drace. The rest after that was personal problems rather finding a solution to current community problems.
ArcherLove
1,434 posts
Joined March 2013
ArcherLove

17VA wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370840

native faith 1K master? - why 1K
HAHAHAHA XD
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Actually I think acquiring a MAT would be much less difficult to do than finding BATs, since what you have to do for your is simply playtesting, wow.
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/92190 <= 7.11, passed by a lot of people, some being very close to 99%
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/179779 + p/3160605 <= 7.13, having played it I am sure Staiain will have a very hard time passing it.

Why ?
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

_Gezo_ wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/92190 <= 7.11, passed by a lot of people, some being very close to 99%
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/179779 + p/3160605 <= 7.13, having played it I am sure Staiain will have a very hard time passing it.

Why ?
ACs' SR may very well be broken. You're also comparing an extreme 7K mania spec with a (extreme ?) 4K AC here...
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
I do, but don't you see the keycount greatly influences the SR of mania mapsets.
Some middle-hard converts which are about 2.5 apparently are higher rated than hard 4K charts, which is unfair.

Also download the map provided in the post I've linked; you will see what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a chart which has 510 1/4 patterns, 255 1/4 jackhammers, and what makes this 4K complete hell.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
my bad forgive me senpia
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

PyaKura wrote:

senpia
Pya being Pya, move along citizens
hamanorts
2 posts
Joined September 2013
hamanorts
Nice to meet you ;)
BSHFT BADT GMBH
BSHFT BADT GMBH
I think some lower ranked players lost (quite) some PP or am I wrong?
Did something change?
Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit

SM_Bluefusion wrote:

I think some lower ranked players lost (quite) some PP or am I wrong?
Did something change?

I believe EZ and HT got heavily, heavily nerfed so you can't just spam a song too hard for you on EZ/HT and still get heaps of pp.
zKskita
23 posts
Joined August 2010
zKskita

Tornspirit wrote:

SM_Bluefusion wrote:

I think some lower ranked players lost (quite) some PP or am I wrong?
Did something change?

I believe EZ and HT got heavily, heavily nerfed so you can't just spam a song too hard for you on EZ/HT and still get heaps of pp.
Or they could have stopped being considered for pp entirely. My EZ pass with Shuffle Heaven completely disappeared ._.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Tornspirit wrote:

SM_Bluefusion wrote:

I think some lower ranked players lost (quite) some PP or am I wrong?
Did something change?

I believe EZ and HT got heavily, heavily nerfed so you can't just spam a song too hard for you on EZ/HT and still get heaps of pp.
And autoconverts still give over 300pp
And Utakata still gives easily over 250 pp
AND MEDIA'S ARE SILENT
Ulqux
2 posts
Joined June 2014
Ulqux
NOTE: Not exactly sure whether I should report this problem in this thread or start a new one(haven't really been on the forums though I've been playing Osumania! for some time). I'm neither sure whether this problem has already been reported before and solved(haven't found a thread or somewhere on the internet about this problem....).
Also: This is my first post so please don't slaugther me for my inexperience and wrongdoings(as well as poor english)?


I have more or less a problem concerning Osumania! that are actually somewhat pretty irritating...
The problem is:
Slowed note falling speed, but higher note density.
The beatmap still properly follows the song in regards to when a note should be played, but the speed at which the notes falls are significantly slower than what it is supposed to be, and in the meanwhile the notes are far closer(which is why the beatmap still properly follows the song, but goes at a slower rate..).

I found that I could fix this problem on some maps by replaying a ranked map, that goes at the proper speed, which will in turn fix the wrong speed for me.
The problem is then that this does obviously not work for maps that are not ranked..(know that they are slower cuz my brother also have the beatmap and it goes significantly faster, though with the notes spread out some more...)
Taadashi
230 posts
Joined January 2011
Taadashi

Ulqux wrote:

NOTE: Not exactly sure whether I should report this problem in this thread or start a new one(haven't really been on the forums though I've been playing Osumania! for some time). I'm neither sure whether this problem has already been reported before and solved(haven't found a thread or somewhere on the internet about this problem....).
Also: This is my first post so please don't slaugther me for my inexperience and wrongdoings(as well as poor english)?


I have more or less a problem concerning Osumania! that are actually somewhat pretty irritating...
The problem is:
Slowed note falling speed, but higher note density.
The beatmap still properly follows the song in regards to when a note should be played, but the speed at which the notes falls are significantly slower than what it is supposed to be, and in the meanwhile the notes are far closer(which is why the beatmap still properly follows the song, but goes at a slower rate..).

I found that I could fix this problem on some maps by replaying a ranked map, that goes at the proper speed, which will in turn fix the wrong speed for me.
The problem is then that this does obviously not work for maps that are not ranked..(know that they are slower cuz my brother also have the beatmap and it goes significantly faster, though with the notes spread out some more...)
you need to adjust speed through F3 or F4 in-game or ctrl + or - before starting the song. It's no bug, it's intended. :)
Ulqux
2 posts
Joined June 2014
Ulqux
Oh is that so..
Never knew about.....


Looking it up again...
So it's the osumania note falling speed, that any1 can change in order to find what fits them the most?
It feels a bit strange as slower note falling speed makes songs so much easier to play compared to faster... but maybe it may be just because I'm still a novice Osumania player...
Taadashi
230 posts
Joined January 2011
Taadashi

Ulqux wrote:

Oh is that so..
Never knew about.....


Looking it up again...
So it's the osumania note falling speed, that any1 can change in order to find what fits them the most?
It feels a bit strange as slower note falling speed makes songs so much easier to play compared to faster... but maybe it may be just because I'm still a novice Osumania player...
When you progress into harder songs it's actually easier to play at higher speeds as long as you can follow the notes since patterns gets more complex and density of notes gets tighter. :)

and yes anyone can change it as they see fit. ;)
Sibula
1 post
Joined May 2012
Sibula
I think there is a pretty bad problem in the formula. I mean... it takes into account the length of the song, so long songs give lots of pp even if they aren't that hard. And if I got it right it doesn't care about the avg./peak density of the song. I don't think it would be overwhelmingly difficult to improve this.
Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit

Allium97 wrote:

I think there is a pretty bad problem in the formula. I mean... it takes into account the length of the song, so long songs give lots of pp even if they aren't that hard. And if I got it right it doesn't care about the avg./peak density of the song. I don't think it would be overwhelmingly difficult to improve this.
Actually long maps aren't necessarily giving heaps of pp; currently some of the more overrated maps, such as Koi Yomi Zakura, Utakata Ai no Mahoroba, Atropos, Poppin Shower are only around 2 minutes, and give more than they honestly should, while some long songs definitely are underrated such as fortissimo and workaholic. Larger problems are that low level 7k gives a hell of a lot less than low level 4k, vice versa for higher levels, and songs with heavy LN being underrated compared to songs with heaps of chords.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
Unfortunately, trying to create a mathematical model of difficulty for mania is not exactly easy. Gotta say, I'm impressed with tom's work so far, even if it has plenty of imperfections.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
If you're not going to do anything with our suggestions maybe just close the topic and unsticky it?
Noobrage
6 posts
Joined December 2012
Noobrage
1. My english sucks/ enough to understand me
2. I haven't read much in this thread


I actually hate the rankingsystem we got. It shows like 0% improvment. The rankingsystem feels atm like = get a decent rank on a popular song for much PP.
But i dont want to play the popular maps only just to improve my ranking beside there arent even many maps that give you a bunch of PP for a decent rank.

I did climb about 9k places on different maps together today and i've earned about 20 PP for these 9k places.
Play Waterhorizon get Rank 2k and gain 329804723874 PP

I mean guys here is obviously something wrong....
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Noobrage wrote:

1. My english sucks/ enough to understand me
2. I haven't read much in this thread


I actually hate the rankingsystem we got. It shows like 0% improvment. The rankingsystem feels atm like = get a decent rank on a popular song for much PP.
But i dont want to play the popular maps only just to improve my ranking beside there arent even many maps that give you a bunch of PP for a decent rank.

I did climb about 9k places on different maps together today and i've earned about 20 PP for these 9k places.
Play Waterhorizon get Rank 2k and gain 329804723874 PP

I mean guys here is obviously something wrong....
Map popularity and score rank achieved aren't factors in the current pp system anymore (they were factors in ppv1 only).
Noobrage
6 posts
Joined December 2012
Noobrage
That actually didnt explain why these maps give SO MUCH more PP.
They are mostly (NOT always) harder, but that aint a reason that they should give *10 as much points...
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
maps are popular because they give a lot of PP
not the other way around orz
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
After checking out Logger Pro to try and find a correlation between score/1million and PP awarded (for Aiae SHD) I couldn't find an equation, although it appears to be some sort of exponential with a y-intercept of 500,000 and an exponent of less than one.

Lol I personally would love it if the scores could automatically include how many performance points are awarded for a ranked score. It would likely give people a good indicator/inclination to play maps at or slightly above their level.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

PyaKura wrote:

lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
actually your pp is directly related to the score and stars on a map and nothing else

yeah
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I know I thought he meant a fixed amount of pp gained from score only...
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
that would be incredibly silly

farm all [Easy] autoconverts, become top master

just like ppv1!
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Aqo wrote:

PyaKura wrote:

lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
actually your pp is directly related to the score and stars on a map and nothing else

yeah
The accuracy percentage also influences the pp gained a bit, but the influence of it is decreased when the star difficulty of the map increases (so, at some point, the influence of it is so small score is the only things that matters).
lemonguy
548 posts
Joined July 2014
lemonguy
I'm sort of new to mania (been playing for 40 some days, have about 2000 pp) and this is my first post, but I really quickly noticed that the ranking system for mania needed to be changed somehow. The thing that bugged me the most is that 4k-8k are weighted the same, but 4k is much easier, so in my case like many others, all of my top scores for pp are from 4k songs. I could do really good in my standards on a 7k song, but not get any pp for it because I did a little better on the 4k songs, even though they are easier. For auto-converts, most of them get low difficulty ratings anyways, and you can easily get more pp from mania charts than you could from auto-converts. IMO, I wouldn't take auto-converts out from giving you pp, because if you're good at mania, you will get more pp from the mania songs anyways. That's just my opinion though, and I don't really know how far you can go, farming standard songs. If there were more ranked mania charts than there are currently available though, I would probably be more for disabling pp for auto-converts. There are also some songs that are considered way too high in difficulty (i.e. Utakata) that give you way too many pp.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
4K is not necessarily easier than 7K except on an extremely high-level of play because 7K can be more dense than 4K, but for most players 4K focuses on speed, density and stamina whereas 7 and 8K is more about reading difficult patterns. However 4K gives way too much pp for low and mid-level play and not enough for high-level play. Higher key amounts suffer the opposite problem. That's why many players around 0 to 3000~ pp have a 4K song as their top perf whereas the other top players usually have 7K charts as top perfs. (Well there is AiAe but it IS underrated)
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
4K will feel overrated if your speed is better than your reading
7K will feel overrated if your reading is better than your speed

Just like in standard, everyone complains that whatever they're good at is overrated. People who can stream fast say that stream maps give too much pp, people who can aim well say jump maps give too much etc..
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