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posted
Standard is a totally different mode. There's difficulties that have the same goal and set up as the lower difficulty, but with more hits and faster reactions.
...and difficulties in o!m don't have lower difficulties set up with varying hits, HP drains, and other stats at all. People totally don't make tons of difficulties for the same keys. What are you getting at?

You're not understanding a very clear fundamental point here, so I'm going to use other rhythm games as an example to show you how your idea of key-separating is entirely incorrect. I'm sure that a number of players here are familiar with rhythm games like Dance Dance Revolution / In The Groove -- 4 "keys", and 8 "keys", Pump It Up (referred to as PIU below) -- 5 "keys" and 10 "keys", and I'll also throw another game into the mix as well -- Technomotion, which is 9 "keys". All of these games have the SAME mechanic -- tapping your foot to the corresponding panel in accordance with the music, just like all of the key values of osu!mania have the exact same mechanic -- tapping your key to the corresponding receptor in accordance with the music. Here's where your argument fails: all of these games are played under this same mechanic, but have different physical construction to the play in question. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, look up all of these games and their respective modes. Fun fact: all of the previously mentioned games with the exception of Dance Dance Revolution, have large communities that sit down and make content for these games, much like the mappers of osu! and osu!mania work on content for this game. But enough about that, let me make my point:

Calling an ITG player useless because they can't play PIU is horrible and is a point that will likely get you in a lot of fire, because they are different games. Repeating this point with PIU -- you won't do well calling a PIU weak because they can't play half-double on ITG (6-key iteration), and you won't do well calling someone out on ITG double (8-key) for not being able to play Technomotion (9-key) much like you won't be able to get away with calling a Techmotion player weak because they can't play PIU double (10-key).

Calling a regular n-key player weak because another player is capable of playing n+1 key proficiently makes no sense at all, just like saying n+1 is worse than n+2 makes no sense, and yadayadayada. They are different games executed in entirely different matters, and if you take the time to do your research on the maps for each mode, you would likely find that 4K charts are constructed much more differently than 6K/7K charts. Most players who started on games like IIDX and transferred over here might be incredible at sustaining huge densities of cohesion in maps, but throw extremely high speeds at them and they likely won't fare too well without a ton of practice. Why? Because fundamentally, they are different games. It doesn't matter that they're all contained within one classification (osu!mania) -- what matters is how the game is played (4K/5K/6K/7K/8K/xK). You likely will notice that a lot of good 7K players don't land on 4K boards because they have no interest in playing lower key values, so you tell me: where does this double standard end?
posted

October Scream wrote:

if Staiain is the best 4k player in the world
What if this actually was the case, and one of the reasons why I stick to 4k for the most part, and play stuff on DT because I can and legit enjoy it and not because I'm trying to farm, ever considered that? Reason I became more or less the world's top 4k player is because I enjoyed it a lot and stuck with it for years, I played 6k and a bit 7k too but just because i'm not equally skilled in all modes you don't have the right to condescend me.

I played some 4k converts because o!m lacks a large variety of 4k specific charts and i ran out of stuff to play that provides an enjoyable challenge to me, and people wanted me to score on them while they spectated that day.
posted

Halogen- wrote:

...and difficulties in o!m don't have lower difficulties set up with varying hits, HP drains, and other stats at all. People totally don't make tons of difficulties for the same keys. What are you getting at?
What I'm getting at here is that standard will still use 2 keys or two mouse clicks, all it is is there will be harder things from the same map and different mappers. It's just placed differently. Mania can have the same intensity and challenge from a 4k and a 7k, but they both have different key amounts, when standard, sticks with the same things through the whole mode, same with taiko and CtB.

Halogen- wrote:

they are different games.
This is a different game as well. I see your points, but I'm not acknowledging them or saying my minds set towards them. If you want me to say my opinions on yours, then just ask.

Since you seem like I don't understand, I'll answer one of them.

Halogen- wrote:

Calling an ITG player useless because they can't play PIU is horrible and is a point that will likely get you in a lot of fire, because they are different games. Repeating this point with PIU -- you won't do well calling a PIU weak because they can't play half-double on ITG (6-key iteration), and you won't do well calling someone out on ITG double (8-key) for not being able to play Technomotion (9-key) much like you won't be able to get away with calling a Techmotion player weak because they can't play PIU double (10-key).
I never said weak. I said lazy. If they don't want to learn how to play because they just want their same key amount, that's just lazy. If they don't want to learn because it's extremely difficult for them, then they should say and I'd understand. But instead, they defend themselves by saying "I'd like to see you try this." If they can say that, then I should be able to as well.

PIU and DDR/ITG are the same mechanics: Step on the arrows. The difference is you have 1-2 extra columns to focus on. Technomotion I'm not familiar with, but Pop n' Music I am. That's their choice of why they don't want to learn anything else. I'm finding all of your long posts getting us nowhere because all you'll say is

Halogen- wrote:

You're not understanding a very clear fundamental point here,
. Maybe I am, and I'm just not gonna reply about it.
posted

October Scream wrote:

Mania can have the same intensity and challenge from a 4k and a 7k
thank you, case closed
posted

Staiain wrote:

October Scream wrote:

if Staiain is the best 4k player in the world
What if this actually was the case, and one of the reasons why I stick to 4k for the most part, and play stuff on DT because I can and legit enjoy it and not because I'm trying to farm, ever considered that? Reason I became more or less the world's top 4k player is because I enjoyed it a lot and stuck with it for years, I played 6k and a bit 7k too but just because i'm not equally skilled in all modes you don't have the right to condescend me.

I played some 4k converts because o!m lacks a large variety of 4k specific charts and i ran out of stuff to play that provides an enjoyable challenge to me, and people wanted me to score on them while they spectated that day.
What if ideu-, Entozer, or some other player was the best 7k player in the world? Would they stick to just 7k?

No. They play all key amounts and enjoy it all. The only reason I ever considered you of farming was all of the Autoconverts being dt, then saying you enjoy to farm also made me think badly, and that was a bad, terrible assumption. If you want an apology, I'll give one.

I'm sorry I thought you farmed for the hell of it. You are a good 4k player, it's just not only 4k out here though, and I thought it was unfair to everyone that's played all keys.
posted
I agree my rank was way too high for having played almost all 4k (i never said i did), but seeing as there are almost as many 4k charts as 7k charts ranked (to my knownledge) and that i did for the most part play those and not autoconverts I still feel that players like me, Halogen-, Bites etc. derserve some recogntion in the form of DT pp increase, considering we are able to get good scores on those charts (sometimes making it to the top 50 board) even with the handicap of using DT which I feel derserves recognition, pp is after all meant to be a way to objectively measure a players skill level to some degree.

I'm not here to show off or try to get the highest rank I can, if you see my play count here you can tell I am casually playing this game, I'm just stating that even if we don't play 7k as much as 4k doesn't mean we aren't high level players that should be left out of the pp system.

I accept the apology and we should put this misunderstanding behind us.
posted
This really has gotten out of hand, and it's all because of one person (who in my opinion, really doesn't know a lot about what they're talking about). I'd much rather contribute to a meaningful discussion on how to resolve this point system algorithm so that it can fairly represent all osu!m players, 4K through 8K players alike. I feel like scaling the score multiplier objectively for auto-converts and the number of keys away from the original value is a good way to add deductions -- I mentioned something like 1.00x - .125n, where n is the number of keys away from the original number of keys from normal; this way, a 4K player can still net performance points for playing an 8K conversion, but they're only getting half as many PP as normal. This would discourage PP grinding outside of a given key-range. To compensate, RC for other key-modes should be considered such so that an even number of files exists for 4, 5, 6, 7 (maybe 8) key modes. You could expect a more even distribution of performance points handed out for players who are proficient in all modes, and you could expect higher plays for ranked files overall by those who have to play auto-converts.

If a player plays a song on DT, you can add a fixed amount and scale the values similarly -- so, if 1 - .125x is the algorithm and you wanted DT to hand out 10% more pp normally, you would say: 1.1 - .1375, etc.

Just a thought. Bouncing more ideas out could be helpful for Tom94 and I for one am in favor of getting the ball rolling so that there is a solid system in place.
posted

Halogen- wrote:

This really has gotten out of hand, and it's all because of one person (who in my opinion, really doesn't know a lot about what they're talking about).
Well, that makes me feel better......

The reason I've flipped out was because I thought Tom94 never listened to anything some of us said, but that was a stupid thing as well. I was just stating my opinion as well originally and giving my opinions on how the pp scoring could be fixed. We talked yesterday though, and I realize he doesn't have time for everything he's working on, which I've forgotten out of frustration and anger.

I'd gladly like to get back to the main topic and for all of us to help with this.
posted
I'd like to ask you - mania players about a certain thing. What do you think is harder/easier or same difficulty. Let's take 2 maps: 4k and 7k. Let's pretend that note density of each one is same and bpm is same. For example 4k map has a density of let's say 10 notes/s and 7k has a density of 17.5 notes/s due to having more keys. Even though the number is different for each but is the same considering we have different amount of keys. Let's also pretend these maps are without crazy patterns, just simple triplets, doubles and alternation. How would you judge the skill required to play these maps? We can also take it a step further to use all our fingers and say, use a 10k map with a density of 25 notes/s.
posted
Under a different number of keys, an equal density would lead to the intensity being major more likely on the lower amount of keys.

After a certain density, the difference would reside in the special key, though, if you're thinking per-lane densities instead of overall density.
Hitting 4k, 6k and S8K is likely to use the same jacking abilities (With the exception on pinkies, being the weakest fingers of the hand, probably)

whereas the special 5k, 7k and 7k+1 key modes are likely to be different, even more so depending on your key setup.

I'm not sure it can be evaluated without going for a case-by-case basis.
posted
if you have the same density per lane, then the higher keymode would most likely be quite a bit more difficult, due to needing more muscle memory and reading skill to deal with all the patterns.
if you have the same density overall, then the lower keymode would probably be quite a bit more difficult due to the fact that you have a lot more strain on less fingers.
posted
It goes down to what I mentioned when responding to October Scream -- it's all down to pattern construction.

For example 4k map has a density of let's say 10 notes/s and 7k has a density of 17.5 notes/s due to having more keys. Even though the number is different for each but is the same considering we have different amount of keys. Let's also pretend these maps are without crazy patterns, just simple triplets, doubles and alternation.
The unfortunate matter is that you simply can't judge based off of the note density itself, because patterns are going to be inherently harder on 4K than 7K for different reasons. Despite only using index/middle or middle/ring, there are some patterns that are going to lend themselves to more difficulty. Assuming that there's no crazy patterns, and that doubles are used regularly/alternated, you can expect more patterns on 4K to be anchor-heavy (an anchor is a situation where the same arrow implicitly/explicitly repeats multiple times) because there's less room to play with layering in charts. Being that there are less pattern combinations overall on 4K, Agka brings up an arguable point:

Agka wrote:

Under a different number of keys, an equal density would lead to the intensity being major more likely on the lower amount of keys.
Before going on though, I do want to make a note that overall note density shouldn't be increased simply because there are more keys: this simply implies that you are increasing the layering by n(k) when the number of keys isn't going to dictate the map's layering: the mapper is going to dictate the map's layering. Think in a more unbiased scenario, where the number of keys is not going to dictate the layering -- let's say we have an area of the song where there is a single synth in a melody and nothing more, and it's running at 1/4 snap at 150 BPM (to make your 10 notes/s example). In an instance where we have the same structure, it's going to depend strictly on patterning. Something that frequently leans towards one hand on 6K/7K/8K is obviously going to be more difficult than just about any 4K stream because you have a massive amount of patterning permutations. Likewise, a fluent stream on 6K/7K/8K is likely going to feel easier than a fluent stream on 4K to an experienced player because the overall feel is more natural.

Assessing at 17.5 N/S is a huge way to illustrate that chart compositions on 4K/7K are extremely different. To get an idea of how fast this is: 17.5 N/S is equal to 262.5 BPM 1/4 snapped stream, which is incredibly fast. Agka's point holds true again: the intensity would feel considerably higher on 4K because there are less patterns to choose from, whereas a 6/7/8K situation would a bit smoother. Cramming 17.5 n/s requires you to hit 1050 notes in 1 minute. This is achievable under easier circumstances in higher key values: taking a look at another musical example, we'll assume that a section has a bass drum hitting every beat in a measure, snare drum hitting beats 2 and 4 every measure, clap hitting beats 2 and 4 every measure, a closed hi-hat running on the up-beat of every beat, falling in between your bass drum, snare drum, and clap in even intervals, and a melody running straight 1/4 stream (a basic/generic song structure). Most 7K/8K map would be able to handle layering this directly, accounting for every sound appropriately, but the layering would be heavy. However, the 4K map would have to compensate to make the chart reasonably playable, possibly being forced to ignore the fact that a snare/clap exists at certain points to more suitably account for the melody.

Xcrypt said it best:

Xcrypt wrote:

if you have the same density per lane, then the higher keymode would most likely be quite a bit more difficult, due to needing more muscle memory and reading skill to deal with all the patterns.
if you have the same density overall, then the lower keymode would probably be quite a bit more difficult due to the fact that you have a lot more strain on less fingers.
In a situation where there are no repeated notes over a given even interval, a per-lane density would prove that the higher key amount gets more difficulty because there are a lot more keys to handle at once. If you were to spread patterns out in such a way on 4K with a per-lane density of 4 n/s, you would have a 16 n/s stream assuming that the patterns are evenly distributed. If the same were to happen in 8k, well... you'd likely be in big trouble, haha. These are very extreme and unlikely circumstances, though.
posted

EBAWER123 wrote:

I'd like to ask you - mania players about a certain thing. What do you think is harder/easier or same difficulty. Let's take 2 maps: 4k and 7k. Let's pretend that note density of each one is same and bpm is same. For example 4k map has a density of let's say 10 notes/s and 7k has a density of 17.5 notes/s due to having more keys. Even though the number is different for each but is the same considering we have different amount of keys. Let's also pretend these maps are without crazy patterns, just simple triplets, doubles and alternation. How would you judge the skill required to play these maps? We can also take it a step further to use all our fingers and say, use a 10k map with a density of 25 notes/s.
The number of unique key jumps in patterns should definitely be considered. The "stress" of a pattern is affected by how often new keys are introduced. "Note density" should already account for this, and if I know tom, it already does.
posted

peppy wrote:

The number of unique key jumps in patterns should definitely be considered. The "stress" of a pattern is affected by how often new keys are introduced. "Note density" should already account for this, and if I know tom, it already does.
No matter how difficulty calculation is done, it will never function well on a ranking system where different key modes share the same ranking. Each key mode is a completely different game which requires different skills, and players are not exclusively better or worse than each other in a global "mania" way.

i.e. If I play with a similar level 4K player (being a 7K player myself), he will consistently beat me on all 4K maps we play, but if we play 7K I will consistently beat him on all maps we play. Neither of us is better or worse at "mania"; (note that I'm only mentioning 4K and 7K as those are the two most popular modes in o!m) he is better at physical precision with fast notes as well as vertical reading which are the main skills in lower key mode whereas I'm better at reading density and wide notes which are prevalent only in a higher key mode. A ranking system that tells us that one of us is either better or worse will be completely random based on arbitrary parameters and won't really reflect anything.

No matter how it's done, each key mode is a different game that requires different skills. From a programmers point of view all of those mania key modes might seem very similar and you might assume there's only a small difference between them, but from a player's point of view the difference can be as big as being twice better in one key mode than another person but twice worse than him in another. The ranking will never be able to reflect this with a shared board for all.

Again it's important to stress, this is not a minor difference, this is as big as me being unable to pass a 4K map and barely getting 70% with nofail on it while a 4K player gets 95% S rank on it, whereas me being able to get 95% on a 7K map that the same 4K player can't pass at all and barely gets a D on. A ranking system that tells us that one of us is worse than the other at "mania" is a slap in the face considering the completely different skills involved.

If it's not possible to give a separate ranking per key mode, giving at least a separate 4K and All-K board will solve A LOT of problems as the vast majority (over 99%) of players either play exclusively 4K or all key modes available. This would solve a ton of ranking issues instantly that are otherwise not solvable at all and can only be subjectively addressed in a way that will either be unfair for 4K players or for higher-key players.
posted
I found something that shouldn't be there

Here an example:

In this case you have to notice that Zumokuta has a better Rank and a higher level (its not given in the Picture)then me

This is not a complaint against Zumokuta,this is against the PP-system

I noticed that a few guys got a better country rank then me so I decided to look at Zumokutas Top Ranks and I noticed 2 things
1.About 80-90% 4k (I think)
IF the PP-system stays like it is in this moment,then I want seperate rankings for 4k and 7k
2.I noticed this record

Zumokuta finished the map with the mod 4k,99% and round about 770.000 points

Then I played the map by myself,BUT I played with 7k,95-96% and 815.000 points
But


I got like 4pp and Zumokuta round about 50pp,but I have more points and played it with 7k(If you not already noticed,this converted map is 7k)
This get me to the point that the current system is NOT interested in the amount of points you got.
Its just interested in your accuracy ,which make it easier to get lots of pp when you are a 4k player.
I am wrong or is this really a problem in the current system?
posted

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I think scores should be weighted higher if it's higher key count but not by much, example:
4k-0,9
5k-0,93
6k-0,96
7k-1
8k-1,03
so there will be no going for easy 4k maps in order to get pp
AGREED! I'm tired of seeing 7K players getting the higher score just because 8K has a restriction.
posted
People thinking 4k is always easier than higher key amounts *sigh*
posted
each key has their own difficulty and 4k is not easier than 7k
i personally think that 7k is easier compare to 4k although i started playing mania with 4k
posted

Xenlon wrote:

I found something that shouldn't be there

Here an example:

In this case you have to notice that Zumokuta has a better Rank and a higher level (its not given in the Picture)then me

This is not a complaint against Zumokuta,this is against the PP-system

I noticed that a few guys got a better country rank then me so I decided to look at Zumokutas Top Ranks and I noticed 2 things
1.About 80-90% 4k (I think)
IF the PP-system stays like it is in this moment,then I want seperate rankings for 4k and 7k
2.I noticed this record

Zumokuta finished the map with the mod 4k,99% and round about 770.000 points

Then I played the map by myself,BUT I played with 7k,95-96% and 815.000 points
But


I got like 4pp and Zumokuta round about 50pp,but I have more points and played it with 7k(If you not already noticed,this converted map is 7k)
This get me to the point that the current system is NOT interested in the amount of points you got.
Its just interested in your accuracy ,which make it easier to get lots of pp when you are a 4k player.
I am wrong or is this really a problem in the current system?
His 770.000 points with 4K are a lot better than your 815.000 points with 7K. Why you might ask? Because 4K gives a big score penalty! Relative to the maximum possible score he could have gotten he did a LOT better than you. Despite the 4K map being rated quite a bit easier than the 7K version (I checked!) his better play by a huge margin made up for that and earned him more pp.
posted
Ok,I played this map again but with 4k and got 765.000 points.
I personally think the 7k version is harder then the 4k,but thats not the point.
The first time I got 815.000 points and thats more then 765.000,so the first try is my Top Score.
Does this mean that I have to play some maps with 4k and 99% ,when I could pass them with 7k and 95-96%,just for the Top Score?
I think the same 7k converted map is always easier in 4k then in 7k ,but I want to play with 7k,because 4k isn't challenging me enough.
(This is my opinion,because I never saw a converted map that is easier in 7k then in 4k)
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