http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit.

No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

October Scream wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit. No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

Actually Staiain is one of the best 4K players in the world and he certanly deserves to be in top 50, even if he isn't that good at 7K, (air raid pls), but I get your point with ridiculus DT scalings. It's gotten to a point where you can get 1K pp for just playing autoconverts with 4K mod and even more with DT. It's definitly what we don't want to see. Autoconverts and DT are too heavily weighted imho

October Scream wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit.

No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

Can you name any players who are better than Staiain at stepmania style maps? What gives you the right to say which kind of skill is worth the most? I can understand if you disagree, that's totally valid, but try being less offensive. It's not like your opinion is worth more than that of other's.

#1 Judging from the general opinion here the DT bonus for pp will get removed for now. It might return when there has been found a solution regarding nomod plays overwriting DT, but as it is now it doesn't make much sense to have DT give a bonus.

#2 Keymods don't decrease pp gain at the moment. This will change.

Tom94 wrote:

October Scream wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit.

No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

Can you name any players who are better than Staiain at stepmania style maps? What gives you the right to say which kind of skill is worth the most? I can understand if you disagree, that's totally valid, but try being less offensive. It's not like your opinion is worth more than that of other's.

#1 Judging from the general opinion here the DT bonus for pp will get removed for now. It might return when there has been found a solution regarding nomod plays overwriting DT, but as it is now it doesn't make much sense to have DT give a bonus.

#2 Keymods don't decrease pp gain at the moment. This will change.

Right now, I can compare Furry. There are more players out there though, and the only reason Furry isn't high is because he is playing unranked maps it seems to me.

October Scream wrote:

Right now, I can compare Furry. There are more players out there though, and the only reason Furry isn't high is because he is playing unranked maps it seems to me.

"Only playing unranked maps" is not a valid argument. If you want performance points you have to perform on ranked maps. It's impossible to rate players skills while not having plays of them to see.

I've spectated him, and he's good. May pass Staiain. He has dt ranks on autoconverts, but 4k, just like Staiain.

October Scream wrote:

I've spectated him, and he's good. May pass Staiain. He has dt ranks on autoconverts, but 4k, just like Staiain.

Any videos?

AlexDest wrote:

Any videos?

His scarlet rose dt pass with 4k.

October Scream wrote:

AlexDest wrote:

Any videos?

His scarlet rose dt pass with 4k.

I never made a video of that so that's made up oops

That was about Furry actually Staiain.

I could record it with his permission.

The difference is still pretty big as we're talking about a PASS vs FC first try so yeah >_>

If you really think Scarlet Rose DT pass is impressive, then I suggest you go watch more videos, especially Staiain's. Your basis on what defines a "pro" player is severely flawed.

I can clear Scarlet Rose HDDT on 7K, and so can tons of other players. Does this make us all top #50 material?

ZXCV wrote:

If you really think Scarlet Rose DT pass is impressive, then I suggest you go watch more videos, especially Staiain's. Your basis on what defines a "pro" player is severely flawed.

I can clear Scarlet Rose HDDT on 7K, and so can tons of other players. Does this make us all top #50 material?

I can do that as well, but it isn't #50 worthy.

Good, so you agree that passes on DT autoconverts are completely obsolete when it comes to gauging a player's skill.
Case closed.

ZXCV wrote:

Good, so you agree that passes on DT autoconverts are completely obsolete when it comes to gauging a player's skill.
Case closed.

Didn't we decided that already? That's why it's not giving pp now.

October Scream wrote:

ZXCV wrote:

Good, so you agree that passes on DT autoconverts are completely obsolete when it comes to gauging a player's skill.
Case closed.

Didn't we decided that already? That's why it's not giving pp now.

you appeared to miss the emphasis on the word passes

so let me point it out for you



DT wasn't disabled because it is worthless. it is disabled because within the boundaries of the current scoring system, it is confusing and hard to calculate. both DT and keymod converts will return to the PP algorithm once tom94 figures out what to do with them, and this has been stated explicitly

I find it moronic how you guys are mainly blaming me and aiming most threats at me. Many other users have spoken about this, and are tired of it.

I'm just the one that spoke up. This is all of their opinions plus mine, so go scout them out and threaten them.

October Scream wrote:

I find it moronic how you guys are mainly blaming me and aiming most threats at me. Many other users have spoken about this, and are tired of it.

I'm just the one that spoke up. This is all of their opinions plus mine, so go scout them out and threaten them.

october scream, you are ignoring my post and every point we have made.

THIS IS FROM YOUR USERPAGE

if you are going to spearhead a movement to get keymods unranked, you should expect that we will confront you about these issues we have with your argument. we have not made a SINGLE threat, nor are we blaming you. we are simply asking you to explain yourself and refute what we are saying.

until you are willing to do so, this is the last i have to say on the matter

Bites wrote:

October Scream wrote:

I find it moronic how you guys are mainly blaming me and aiming most threats at me. Many other users have spoken about this, and are tired of it.

I'm just the one that spoke up. This is all of their opinions plus mine, so go scout them out and threaten them.

october scream, you are ignoring my post and every point we have made.

THIS IS FROM YOUR USERPAGE

if you are going to spearhead a movement to get keymods unranked, you should expect that we will confront you about these issues we have with your argument. we have not made a SINGLE threat, nor are we blaming you. we are simply asking you to explain yourself and refute what we are saying.

until you are willing to do so, this is the last i have to say on the matter

I'm aware of that petition. I started it because no one else would.

If you want me to explain, fine. I didn't like it when key modders would pass other players, but I have no use of that petition now actually since it's been fixed already.

DT mode now doesn't give any kind of pp bonus anymore (as most people voted in here ) and key-mods don't give any pp until their difficulty has been calculated in isolation. keymods giving pp was an oversight on my end, I apologize for that one. They will resume giving pp as soon as difficulty data is available for everything.

October Scream wrote:

I'm aware of that petition. I started it because no one else would.

If you want me to explain, fine. I didn't like it when key modders would pass other players, but I have no use of that petition now actually since it's been fixed already.

keymods will return as soon as difficulty data is there, so your petition hasn't been "fixed". They'll likely will be worth less, though, since converts away from 7K usually end up easier.

Bites wrote:

this is the last i have to say on the matter

i rescind this statement

October Scream wrote:

I'm aware of that petition. I started it because no one else would.

If you want me to explain, fine. I didn't like it when key modders would pass other players, but I have no use of that petition now actually since it's been fixed already.

you are aware though that the issue hasn't been 'fixed' yet, and this is simply a temporary solution until tom94 is able to properly calculate the difference in scoring between the different keymods? in no way is DT or keymodding going to remain unranked. i had JUST said this in an earlier post:

Bites wrote:

both DT and keymod converts will return to the PP algorithm once tom94 figures out what to do with them, and this has been stated explicitly

since you missed it, and i have reason to believe you will miss it again, let me yet again point it out to you

I have read all of your posts Bites, and it was fixed before today to a point I was fine with. I realize how stupid that petition was, so I stopped caring for it and totally forgot about it. That petition was 2 months old. I won't answer everything you post though, because either I don't know how to or I'm fine with it.

So I'm fine with the temporary solution right now.

I am glad that DT and key-mod conversions will return to the rankings at the least. I will agree as a osu!mania player who could have probably taken Staiain's speed route to reach the top 10-20 despite not being able to proficiently play above 6k -- the PP scaling could have definitely been improved a bit.

I wanted to make a suggestion about separating performance points by keys in osu!mania since you're practically playing different games when you add keys, but... one of the toughest parts about scoring in osu!mania is that most players who can play higher key beat-maps are (usually) also capable of playing lower ones as well, making separated scoreboards/ranks by key a bit redundant for those who can play 8k all the way down to 4k.

Halogen- wrote:

I am glad that DT and key-mod conversions will return to the rankings at the least. I will agree as a osu!mania player who could have probably taken Staiain's speed route to reach the top 10-20 despite not being able to proficiently play above 6k -- the PP scaling could have definitely been improved a bit.

I wanted to make a suggestion about separating performance points by keys in osu!mania since you're practically playing different games when you add keys, but... one of the toughest parts about scoring in osu!mania is that most players who can play higher key beat-maps are (usually) also capable of playing lower ones as well, making separated scoreboards/ranks by key a bit redundant for those who can play 8k all the way down to 4k.

I'm a 7K player, I suck at everything which is not 7K, sorry.

PyaKura wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

I am glad that DT and key-mod conversions will return to the rankings at the least. I will agree as a osu!mania player who could have probably taken Staiain's speed route to reach the top 10-20 despite not being able to proficiently play above 6k -- the PP scaling could have definitely been improved a bit.

I wanted to make a suggestion about separating performance points by keys in osu!mania since you're practically playing different games when you add keys, but... one of the toughest parts about scoring in osu!mania is that most players who can play higher key beat-maps are (usually) also capable of playing lower ones as well, making separated scoreboards/ranks by key a bit redundant for those who can play 8k all the way down to 4k.

I'm a 7K player, I suck at everything which is not 7K, sorry.

You are quite the outlier.

October Scream wrote:

I've spectated him, and he's good. May pass Staiain. He has dt ranks on autoconverts, but 4k, just like Staiain.

I don't think anyone other than Stian can Disregard 1.2 AA or TOML 1.6

not to mention stupid crazy scores like Vertex Gamma FC.

I mean 300 bpm streams are easily managable by most of the veteran players on Stepmania but when you take it past 400 bpm it's inhuman.

At least post a video?

Bites wrote:

both DT and keymod converts will return to the PP algorithm

is this why I fell from 350 to 5k rank ROFL
(my current BP are 2 mania 4K, all the rest non-keymodded converts except Sweet Rain [Normal])

So just to check this at this moment in time playing a map with a keymod will give you 0pp?

falkon13 wrote:

So just to check this at this moment in time playing a map with a keymod will give you 0pp?

Yes. But even if you get 0pp for doing a score right now, this very score will resume to giving pp once difficulty per-keymod has been implemented. This means you're not losing anything in the long run by playing with keymods now.

I'm just wondering why i have 277 pp while some people are at 5-7 thousand pp, why is the difference so big?
Is it because im not ranking high in songs or what?

Autoconverts don't weigh as much as mania-spec maps do. Also, you get more pp by clearing harder difficulties, especially in mania-spec mapsets.

Probably because playing autoconverts held back your improvement for osu!mania.

To me it just looks like October Scream is just a slow pp farmer that wants to ruin the game and stop actual skilled people from being able to get good ranks, rather than just suck it up and improve his own skill

Staiain wrote:

To me it just looks like October Scream is just a slow pp farmer that wants to ruin the game and stop actual skilled people from being able to get good ranks, rather than just suck it up and improve his own skill

Ouch.

Although, it's a quite deserved response considering that this thread was quiet until he called the situation bullshit and had a hissy-fit, haha

Halogen- wrote:

Staiain wrote:

To me it just looks like October Scream is just a slow pp farmer that wants to ruin the game and stop actual skilled people from being able to get good ranks, rather than just suck it up and improve his own skill

Ouch.

Although, it's a quite deserved response considering that this thread was quiet until he called the situation bullshit and had a hissy-fit, haha

I spoke up because I found it unfair for those who have skill with all key densities instead of people with one set density being in the top past those players. If anything, Staiain needs to improve his other key skills like every other player is doing instead of sticking to 4k just to farm.

"rrtyui you need to improve your skill at other games rather than sticking to osu! standard to farm PP"

do you see where I am going with this? 4k and 7k might be in osu!mania, but they are different games. Different file structures, different attentions to detail, and different player groups. Stop trying to force players to play things they might not be interested in when they are more than proficient in the game that they desire to play. You are being inconsiderate, insulting, and just downright stupid.

I will level with people: auto-converts probably should take a massive deduction or shouldn't be ranked at all. I think that's largely agreeable. Attitudes like October Scream's are fostering negativity.

Halogen- wrote:

"rrtyui you need to improve your skill at other games rather than sticking to osu! standard to farm PP"

do you see where I am going with this? 4k and 7k might be in osu!mania, but they are different games. Different file structures, different attentions to detail, and different player groups. Stop trying to force players to play things they might not be interested in when they are more than proficient in the game that they desire to play. You are being inconsiderate, insulting, and just downright stupid.

I will level with people: auto-converts probably should take a massive deduction or shouldn't be ranked at all. I think that's largely agreeable. Attitudes like October Scream's are fostering negativity.

Standard is a totally different mode. There's difficulties that have the same goal and set up as the lower difficulty, but with more hits and faster reactions.

This is osu!mania. Mania isn't just 4k, 5k, 6k, or 7k, 7+1k, or 8k. I didn't come here to show I was one of the best Guitar Hero players ever (which would just be 5k), I and so many others came here to show we have more capability to play any amount of keys thrown at us. 7k was a new concept to me, I almost only did 5k! But I practiced, and so many others did to when it came to other key densities. Learning all of this was hard for me, even 4k, but the reason I asked for this is for the people who actually practiced the wide variety of keys.

I don't give a damn if Staiain is the best 4k player in the world, and no one would give a damn about me being the best Guitar Hero player in the world! Some people are just too lazy to learn how to play with other densities. I find 4k not as easy as it looks, but I don't say f it and just stick to 7k, I practiced all of those key densities, and anyone else can to.

No, I'm not trying to force people to play like me. No, I'm not saying all of this because "I can't farm fast enough" (which is pretty stupid to do if that's why you're here). I'm just here for fun, and it feels like it's all a popularity contest the way everything is working now.

Standard is a totally different mode. There's difficulties that have the same goal and set up as the lower difficulty, but with more hits and faster reactions.

...and difficulties in o!m don't have lower difficulties set up with varying hits, HP drains, and other stats at all. People totally don't make tons of difficulties for the same keys. What are you getting at?

You're not understanding a very clear fundamental point here, so I'm going to use other rhythm games as an example to show you how your idea of key-separating is entirely incorrect. I'm sure that a number of players here are familiar with rhythm games like Dance Dance Revolution / In The Groove -- 4 "keys", and 8 "keys", Pump It Up (referred to as PIU below) -- 5 "keys" and 10 "keys", and I'll also throw another game into the mix as well -- Technomotion, which is 9 "keys". All of these games have the SAME mechanic -- tapping your foot to the corresponding panel in accordance with the music, just like all of the key values of osu!mania have the exact same mechanic -- tapping your key to the corresponding receptor in accordance with the music. Here's where your argument fails: all of these games are played under this same mechanic, but have different physical construction to the play in question. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, look up all of these games and their respective modes. Fun fact: all of the previously mentioned games with the exception of Dance Dance Revolution, have large communities that sit down and make content for these games, much like the mappers of osu! and osu!mania work on content for this game. But enough about that, let me make my point:

Calling an ITG player useless because they can't play PIU is horrible and is a point that will likely get you in a lot of fire, because they are different games. Repeating this point with PIU -- you won't do well calling a PIU weak because they can't play half-double on ITG (6-key iteration), and you won't do well calling someone out on ITG double (8-key) for not being able to play Technomotion (9-key) much like you won't be able to get away with calling a Techmotion player weak because they can't play PIU double (10-key).

Calling a regular n-key player weak because another player is capable of playing n+1 key proficiently makes no sense at all, just like saying n+1 is worse than n+2 makes no sense, and yadayadayada. They are different games executed in entirely different matters, and if you take the time to do your research on the maps for each mode, you would likely find that 4K charts are constructed much more differently than 6K/7K charts. Most players who started on games like IIDX and transferred over here might be incredible at sustaining huge densities of cohesion in maps, but throw extremely high speeds at them and they likely won't fare too well without a ton of practice. Why? Because fundamentally, they are different games. It doesn't matter that they're all contained within one classification (osu!mania) -- what matters is how the game is played (4K/5K/6K/7K/8K/xK). You likely will notice that a lot of good 7K players don't land on 4K boards because they have no interest in playing lower key values, so you tell me: where does this double standard end?

October Scream wrote:

if Staiain is the best 4k player in the world

What if this actually was the case, and one of the reasons why I stick to 4k for the most part, and play stuff on DT because I can and legit enjoy it and not because I'm trying to farm, ever considered that? Reason I became more or less the world's top 4k player is because I enjoyed it a lot and stuck with it for years, I played 6k and a bit 7k too but just because i'm not equally skilled in all modes you don't have the right to condescend me.

I played some 4k converts because o!m lacks a large variety of 4k specific charts and i ran out of stuff to play that provides an enjoyable challenge to me, and people wanted me to score on them while they spectated that day.

Halogen- wrote:

...and difficulties in o!m don't have lower difficulties set up with varying hits, HP drains, and other stats at all. People totally don't make tons of difficulties for the same keys. What are you getting at?

What I'm getting at here is that standard will still use 2 keys or two mouse clicks, all it is is there will be harder things from the same map and different mappers. It's just placed differently. Mania can have the same intensity and challenge from a 4k and a 7k, but they both have different key amounts, when standard, sticks with the same things through the whole mode, same with taiko and CtB.

Halogen- wrote:

they are different games.

This is a different game as well. I see your points, but I'm not acknowledging them or saying my minds set towards them. If you want me to say my opinions on yours, then just ask.

Since you seem like I don't understand, I'll answer one of them.

Halogen- wrote:

Calling an ITG player useless because they can't play PIU is horrible and is a point that will likely get you in a lot of fire, because they are different games. Repeating this point with PIU -- you won't do well calling a PIU weak because they can't play half-double on ITG (6-key iteration), and you won't do well calling someone out on ITG double (8-key) for not being able to play Technomotion (9-key) much like you won't be able to get away with calling a Techmotion player weak because they can't play PIU double (10-key).

I never said weak. I said lazy. If they don't want to learn how to play because they just want their same key amount, that's just lazy. If they don't want to learn because it's extremely difficult for them, then they should say and I'd understand. But instead, they defend themselves by saying "I'd like to see you try this." If they can say that, then I should be able to as well.

PIU and DDR/ITG are the same mechanics: Step on the arrows. The difference is you have 1-2 extra columns to focus on. Technomotion I'm not familiar with, but Pop n' Music I am. That's their choice of why they don't want to learn anything else. I'm finding all of your long posts getting us nowhere because all you'll say is

Halogen- wrote:

You're not understanding a very clear fundamental point here,

. Maybe I am, and I'm just not gonna reply about it.