http://osu.ppy.sh/b/254644

unfinished lv 69 - underrated. longnotes in lastphase are really insane.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370840

native faith 1K master? - why 1K

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/338759

koi yomi zakura - overrated.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198272

god knows insane + - overrated.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/329213

sister's noise lvl 42 - underrated. this should placed in 75 ~ 77

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/219360

utakata, ai no mahoroba - this is super - overrated. it's very easy to fc as ChaiN De/structioN (siilento's solid remix) another

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370953

native faith 8K Lunatic - this is super - underrated. why this et chart is placed on #107?

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370882

hesitation snow 8K Another - super underrated. this is harder than Imperishable Night 2006 7K insane diff...

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/257529

smooooch 7K SC - super overrated. this is map is very easy... why this is placed on #88...

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/298849

future gazer 7K SC - underrated... I think this map should be placed on around #117

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/326507

DAYS of DASH shira x rumi SHD - underrated. this is harder than gigantic o.t.n entozer's mania.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/278050

Aoi Eir - INNOCENCE (TV Size) lvl 26 - overrated.

Finally !
Wishing the best for that new system xD

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/231825?m=3 porno map top performance

[Normal] autoconverts beating 90% on mania specific highdiffs of charts

something somewhere went horribly wrong. please fix.

Aqo wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/231825?m=3 porno map top performance

[Normal] autoconverts beating 90% on mania specific highdiffs of charts

something somewhere went horribly wrong. please fix.

Fixed already. Further algorithm changes regarding score scaling incoming soon.

Since the update I am horribly lagging. Its really unplayable
Am I the only one?

no..
me too

I have the same issue, and I know others who have too. Some of the harder maps became unplayable because of the choppiness.
Oh and good job Tom

Xcrypt wrote:

I have the same issue, and I know others who have too. Some of the harder maps became unplayable because of the choppiness.
Oh and good job Tom

The lags have nothing to do with pp updates. And thanks. ^^

Is it normal that weird auto-converted maps on the highest difficulty can beat any mania map by a ton?

Songs like:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198428?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480?m=3

Everyone can recieve tremendous amounts of PP just by ranking them moderatly with any mod and I bet there are way more.

I forgot to leave feedback:

I think its really unstable right now,because strange/easy converted maps gives you more pp then the mania-diffs
For example the Top Ranks from a friend of mine;His best maps are converted 7k maps he played several months ago with the mod 4k

I suggest the ranking from before(This from for example yesterday ) IF you dont get with Half-time nearly the same amount of pp then without Half-Time.
The only problem I meen was that the amount of pp you may get depends on the accuracy (Excuse me, if this is not true but it makes the apparent)

But I am still confused cause of the laggs D:

SM_Bluefusion wrote:

Is it normal that weird auto-converted maps on the highest difficulty can beat any mania map by a ton?

Songs like:
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152561?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/198428?m=3
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/152480?m=3

Everyone can recieve tremendous amounts of PP just by ranking them moderatly with any mod and I bet there are way more.

Agreed. I was wondering how two of those ended up in my BP. Somehow, Extreme Fantasy 4K 99% is worth more than my Imperishable Night A rank too

richardfeder wrote:

Just a quick glance >,<
Clearly there is huge issue about low key amount diff earning a relative high difficulty. One thing I want to point out is that you cannot simply put them all under one single rating system although we have to do that in the future anyway. So now in the early stage of ppv2 I suggest make unique list for every key amount or at least don't put something completely different(for instant 8k and 4k) together. The comparison among different key amount are totally none sense for now.

A couple of opinions:

In difficulty 6, take a look at 7k charts.
Unfinished 7k Hard and Eden HD. Those two clearly don't belong the group of difficulty 6.
Eden HD -> although there is no really outstanding difficult part in this chart, parts contain continuously 1/4 in a relatively high BPM and many 4key-press at the same time make this chart extremely hard compare to other maps in the same level.
Unfinished 7k Hard -> 146BPM with some 1/4 and easy 1/2... seems not harder than other maps in this level. Actually not. Pattern make this chart a little bit hard to read and press for players in that level such as 00:20:065 - and 00:25:099 - , and for those who can not master higher level it is extremely hard to earn FC and high acc(OD8 btw).
So what's important? Sharing a similar average density, songs contain remarkable hard part (like burst or strange pattern) are usually deserved a higher difficulty. Everything unique may makes a chart harder than usual.

Xcrypt wrote:

1. rhythmical planet (collab) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.
2. imperishable night 2006 (7k insane) overrated, there are some pretty hard parts in there, but also quite a bit easy parts that pump up accuracy so it doesn't deserve to be so highly diff judged.

I judge underrated/overrated based on how hard it is to get a good score, not on a clear basis.

That is a problem. hard charts with lower average difficulties usually result in good score and OK acc, but actually to master them you need to enter a much higher level in order to manage those extreme hard part. This cause many underrated cases in the list and we need to pay more attention on the maximum difficulty of a chart to judge its rate.
Same thing also happened in 4k. Eg: Wu Xuan Lan 4k Hard and Insane Techniques 4k Hyper


Speed change and large amounts of LNs makes difficulty rise. We're so Happy obviously easier than other two charts due to this reason.
LNs patterns and speed change should also be considered.

Good Job!

I agree with this, that's reasonable opinion.
To combine each key, and then be reflected in overall pp system would make unfair rankings again.
Some people who should be praised truely in low-key mania will lose an opportunity.
Nice thread, Thank you.

Some harsh words, but after I checked the difficulty list, I'm not totally sure about the credibility of the list - It's even misleading in a few cases, especially in the top part, with overrate and underrate which even conflict with experience people stacked in the BMS/O2 community for years.
Some examples include Messier 333 vs Imperishable Night 2006 vs STAR OF AND... , Gigantic O.T.N vs Polygon vs Big Money vs Rhythmical Planet vs Akasha(ignore's ver) and more.
Though osu!mania is osu!mania and it's not necessary that we follow them at all (they have errors too), but they do provide good reference. (Edit: And this is also player feedback because they testplay-ed them for years.)

Since this list is not finalized, I suggest my original point - Let's make the diff calculation FUN and EASY TO USE.

I believe just like what you have done in TP, there are always weighted beatmaps, that most people think that's "overrated" or "underrated".
However, does that mean , when 20 players go here to say that a map is underrated, the map is truly underrated?
In many case, some parameters are just compromise of people who have discussed stuff here. Too many players, whether high ranked or not, are not possible, or don't want to discuss here (You know this is an English-only talk, and I know too many Chinese who can't participate in because they can't write in English well).

So what I suggest is: We should not focus on criticizing that "Oh a map is underrated I lose PP", but respect the fact that some maps are overrated, that they provide important fact that it's the superpower we should decided to promote (e.g. super quick jackhammer, nearly impossible sliders/ SV changes, etc) . To find these "weighted" maps is fun, isn't it? It's a pretty good idea to help with Tom to find that "What superpower has not been picked out"!

When I talked about "easy to use", I'm curious about the speed of the algorithm. Is it quick enough that it uses only a few seconds to calculate 30k maps? (I think dev had give up that once in the past when they want to improve SD)

Edit: some text arrangement.

DT shouldn't count as extra pp if vision mods, HR, or RD don't give extra pp.

The end.

A better play in DT with a slightly lower score is never considered when a slightly higher scored normal play exists since score isn't multiplied when using DT.

So... that is kind of a problem.

Most mania players said in #osumania that DT has bug. So I tried to play a mania map song that I dont have records yet in DT mod.

finished playing DT and I got low score but gained 45 PP. Then I thought I can beat it without DT and Yes I beat it with higher score. Instead of getting higher PP, my PP reduced to 45 returning to my current PP I got before playing the map.

In that case, DT SHOULD not give extra pp, and should be fixed if it's not supposed to.

The issue here is that DT doesn't increase the score multiplier in mania and that the score is capped at 1 million. This means that even if you make a better score pp-wise with DT and do not beat your standard speed highscore, which is worth less pp, nothing will happen.

This gives an "unfair" advantage to those who didn't make a good standard speed score on a map and can play it with DT instead which gives more pp due to the increased difficulty of the map. Indeed, there are players who could make a decent score with the DT mod, but won't get anything out of it even if it is way harder than in normal speed because they already have a good standard score.

I see no way of solving this issue and keeping the score limit at 1 million at the same time unless it is possible to count only the best performance on a song instead of the best score.

Like TP I believe the new PP consider a map DT'd a brand new one, and the extra PP is considered as you playing a new map (with higher difficulty).

However considering current parameter (score) using for PP calculation, I DO think giving DT more PP is not justice to high 300g ratio players...

just like what Fudgyking wrote, it's unfair to these players who struggle to get a higher standard speed score with even 1 less 300, and will eventually hurt the societycommunity by implying of "Playing hard maps, not to play a map accurately".

Fudgyking wrote:

The issue here is that DT doesn't increase the score multiplier in mania and that the score is capped at 1 million. This means that even if you make a better score pp-wise with DT and do not beat your standard speed highscore, which is worth less pp, nothing will happen.

This gives an "unfair" advantage to those who didn't make a good standard speed score on a map and can play it with DT instead which gives more pp due to the increased difficulty of the map. Indeed, there are players who could make a decent score with the DT mod, but won't get anything out of it even if it is way harder than in normal speed because they already have a good standard score.

I see no way of solving this issue and keeping the score limit at 1 million at the same time unless it is possible to count only the best performance on a song instead of the best score.

This guy nailed it.

Sorry for double posting, but I believe 50+ difficulty maps need more feedback.

As soon as I dig into 50+ diff maps (I have testplayed them for 3 hours), I found that it's just chaos. Difficulty numbers goes random, when a few 70s can be nearly the same hard as 60s or even 50s and a few 60s is hard to hell.

I know I'm a note-biased player (I can't play sliders-biased pattern well), so I believe others would have different thoughts. And most feedbacks I have seen is focused on 30 or even lower difficulty maps, maybe we can now check these overjoy maps?

(Though there are not many maps which have 50+ difficulty ranked (actually only 1), maybe we still need to work on this to prepare for these hard maps?)

Also how are calculations working for auto converts now? I have a auto convert in my Best Performances list, but I think I've played better songs.

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.
Since lots of people (including me) played mania specific maps and yet it just like the same as no mod plays.

@Fafeluke

All vision mods aren't giving any extra pp at the moment. The only mod giving more pp than usual is DT.

Fafeluke wrote:

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.

On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.

Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.

Aqo wrote:

Fafeluke wrote:

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.

On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.

Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.

This is a great point -- there are probably a number of players who actually use hidden to legitimately reduce the number of objects/notes on screen. Score shouldn't be increased under any hidden circumstance. Fade in produces a similar effect, just the opposite portion of the screen.

However, FL is a different exception -- the amount of space that you have to read guarantees that you will have to lower your scroll speed by a tremendous amount. At this point, you'd likely being reading something incredibly dense or memorizing the chart. Either way, for consistency's sake, it would be a better idea just to leave the multipliers both at 1.00x.

About DT.
I personally have been pro ranking DT in the past, but here's a few reasons why I'm against it now.

As you know, there's the problem that we can't beat nomod scores with DT where the DT scores might have given better pp.
This is because only the highest scores are stored.
Apparently it's also not possible for the algorithm to consider the best DT plays if they are not the highest score, unless some big revamps are done that are probably not going to happen.

The best solution, is to treat DT as an entire different map with a different scoreboard.
An acceptible solution imo, is to consider the best DT plays not only the highest scores.

Both of which are probably not going to happen.

Suboptimal solutions:
- letting people delete their nomod scores so that they can make their highest score a DT play. This is currently not possible server-side.
- a constant score multiplier for DT. The reason this is suboptimal is because complex LN charts will only get a little bit harder, while maps that have already high bpm streams and/or jacks become nearly impossible.
- a non-constant score multiplier could work fine technically I think, but I don't think that's going to happen because of the coding work needed and the aesthetic scoreboard problems.

This is why I suggest unranking DT. I know that it's great for expert players to have a way to get the pp they deserve, but it might be better to wait until harder maps get ranked instead of suboptimal solutions.
Hidden message: rank harder maps.

Xcrypt wrote:

rank harder maps.

^





DT!mania

I would still stick on "no bonus for DT" unless DT version of a map make another scoreboard someday.

Just like what Aqo said,















DT!mania

Why exactly do we discuss DT usage right now? I feel like that is a point being very unimportant right now. What we should concentrate on is why certain converted maps give such an big amount of pp, and why certain mania-maps are considered easy while they are actually hard and vice versa.

The problem with the converted maps such as Extreme Fantasy might be the note density. I agree to an certain extend that yes, the note density on those maps are higher than on other maps, but note density does NOT equal difficulty.

Same thing with some of the mania-maps, especially Wintersun for example, that (in my opinion) should be placed a lot higher than it already is.
There are certain patterns that do not seem hard, but are really hard in reality due to how exactly they are placed. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/330588 [Eien] as a Longnote training map, is very, very easy in terms of noteplacement, but this only counts if you are good with Longnotes in the first place.

In my humble opinion, there are two options:

a) Calculate alot of patterns into your algorithm, and i mean -alot- because there are alot.
b) Have a Mania-Difficulty-Rating-Team, as that may an option as long as there arent alot of maps and they could still catch up.

Atleast thats how i see it.

[TaikoTori] wrote:

Why exactly do we discuss DT usage right now? I feel like that is a point being very unimportant right now. What we should concentrate on is why certain converted maps give such an big amount of pp, and why certain mania-maps are considered easy while they are actually hard and vice versa.

The problem with the converted maps such as Extreme Fantasy might be the note density. I agree to an certain extend that yes, the note density on those maps are higher than on other maps, but note density does NOT equal difficulty.

Same thing with some of the mania-maps, especially Wintersun for example, that (in my opinion) should be placed a lot higher than it already is.
There are certain patterns that do not seem hard, but are really hard in reality due to how exactly they are placed. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/330588 [Eien] as a Longnote training map, is very, very easy in terms of noteplacement, but this only counts if you are good with Longnotes in the first place.

In my humble opinion, there are two options:

a) Calculate alot of patterns into your algorithm, and i mean -alot- because there are alot.
b) Have a Mania-Difficulty-Rating-Team, as that may an option as long as there arent alot of maps and they could still catch up.

Atleast thats how i see it.

I agree,this is a great idea and a rating team would be really nice IF they dont abuse it for themselfes

And I would make a 3rd option:
You can only get pp for mania-diffs and the converted maps are for fun/the song/or training or something different
Because I think it would be easier with just a few maps that nothing is "overrated" or "underrated".

Xenlon wrote:

I agree,this is a great idea and a rating team would be really nice IF they dont abuse it for themselfes.

I think the community (-> us) would complain about certain ratings from said team if something seems way off.
That also includes the need of fair members of that team that actually listen to the community when arguing.

There won't be any rating team, due to the immense amount of time that'd be required to manage it, sorry. Give the algorithm chances, write which maps you think are rated wrong as some others already did.

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much.

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.

arcwinolivirus wrote:

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.

It's not a bug. DT is considered as of now, that's intended behaviour. Whether that will change isn't clear yet.

Tom94 wrote:

arcwinolivirus wrote:

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.

It's not a bug. DT is considered as of now, that's intended behaviour. Whether that will change isn't clear yet.

I see.. that conflicts in score system. I wonder what will change. If there's going to be an unranking score feature just to have DT score, that would be a problem in ranking scoreboard of the song (Mostly top 10 will be no mods and DTs are uhh.. ). If DT will be implemented by score multiplier, the whole mania ranking will change because scores are passing through the limit 1M. (meaning re-playing all the songs we just recorded back then and new sets of scoreboards of all songs).

Can someone explain to me how did i improve my acc in 5/6 musics from 97% to 99%, and still my overall acc went from 99.28% to 99.11%?
This has anything to do with this new pp system?

DT shouldn't be counted since we have 1M limit of score, and we can easly get higher score without mods. And other way around if we have high score nomod play (wanted to top 50 for example) we can't beat it with DT and we get less pp than somebody who's doing worse than us with DT but didn't have a score before. And there's no point in going for top 50 anymore, just play with DT and get way more pp, it shouldn't be this way imo

I would like to go back to a point I made a few weeks ago on this thread which was something along the lines of "Double Time sounds bad". At the end of the day Osu! is a game, in fact it's a rhythm game meaning it has a greater than average emphasis on music. One of the many reasons I play Mania is that I value how a game sounds, if a game sounds like **** I will not listen to it,just like I will not listen to DT regardless of how much it increases my rank.


Double Time is not the thing that bugged me the most about this patch though. Some of my "Best Performance" are from 5-6 months ago and I have absolutely no idea why; For a start these are all auto-converts which play absolutely nothing like mania maps do. Secondly I watched a reply of my "Best Performance" and the song was slow, long, boring but I only missed one note, which I can only assume is the reason it's up there. Finally, and the one that confuses me the most, the last time the PP system was broken this song was nowhere to be seen on my "Best Performance" .

I feel like I need to explain the cause of my anger here, because at the minute I just sound like someone who's butthurt at losing PP, which admittedly I am. I have improved on this game most days for the past 6 months to the point where I can score S ranks on a difficulty that I would not have even bothered to attempt and it feels like all that effort has been disregarded to the point where, aside from a few songs, I may as well have quit and played another game because it made absolutely no difference to my performance.

This thread in a nutshell: ppv2 is crap.

DT should not be considered if it should give extra pp or not. It should already not be giving extra pp. The only way it could be remotely considered if it was to give extra pp when you're in the top 8 of a song. The only ones I've seen using DT are the top 10 O!M players, and their non DT scores are a hell of a lot better than there recent DT scores. It would have been best to stick with a broken ppv1 I would say since it didn't give any extra pp to players who used mods (But the star system is broke, which I will talk about in the next paragraph).

And on the topic of Auto Converts; why only count certain auto converts, and deny a team of O!M map judges? The method of suggesting which maps are giving too much pp for their difficulty from other players to you is almost the same as having a map judging team; the only difference is that it's the final opinion of one person instead of multiple people, which is far more accurate than one person or a broken star system.